Missing Cards

At the 2011 WSOP Main Event, it was discovered that a table had been using a 44 card deck for approximately 40 minutes (7 hands) before it was discovered. According to the official WSOP rules:

Quote: WSOP Texas Holdem Rules

"Playing with a deck that is missing one or more cards will make no differnce in the results of the hand."

I think it made a difference just from busting the concentration of the players at the table. What do you think?

I disagree with the rule as written, since at some extreme point missing cards would affect the game. What if there were ten players and only 27 cards left? You couldn't deal a round, and still have a five card board with three burns unless someone plays with only one hole card. I know that is silly, but still, that is the way it is written.

In any case, is there a situation besides an extremely short deck, where missing cards, perhaps certain key cards, do make a difference?

It makes about as much of a difference as when the guy at third base takes the dealer's bust card.

I.E. As long as all players believe that there is nothing wrong with the deck, then it makes no difference.

But you do have a point. Once the deck is discovered to be missing cards, it will absolutely screw with the player's heads.

does it make a difference? Yes, of course it makes a difference. Anything could make a difference: different music, different lighting, different temperature.

does it favor any particular player? I will have to say NO, because it not only screws you, it screws him as well.

UNLESS, someone is able to notice that there is something wrong with the deck before it's checked and use it to his advantage, then he is extremely smart and I think deserves to win.

Well, I'm not a poker player, but it seems to me that if you are betting your hand based in part on the probabilities of making a hand with your hold cards and the cards you need to complete the plan aren't even in the deck, then the fact that they are missing would be working against you. Of course, another player might just be the one with those hole cards and futile strategy, so it's just random chance that you are the one that is being hurt by the situation, but I don't really consider that the same as "will make no difference in the results of the hand."

Am I missing something here because I don't understand poker fully?

Quote: hypepoker.net

Mayhem ensued around the table and the uproar began.

I haven't seen video so I don't know whether or not that would be best described as hyperbole. If not, then, yeah, it interfered with their ability to play at their best; sounds like a fight just about broke out.

Quote: hypepoker.net

During the dinner break the dealer had noticed some damage to 8 cards and requested them to be changed. It then got messy when the incorrect cards were brought as replacements.

Huh. I always thought these things were played with Kem plastic cards. I know that at least some WSOP events have used them because I've recognized some of Kem's cardback designs on TV before. I love Kem cards and play with them all the time; I can't recall ever having any be "damaged" to the point where they had to be replaced (Kem actually thinks that this in an unlikely enough eventuality that they offer a lifetime replacement guarantee in case you lose or damage a card from any of their decks). Eight cards out of one deck in one round of play sounds funny to me. I definitely don't think that players at this level are crimping the corners or whatnot, but it leaves one wondering what the heck happened to those cards. It's not like spilling drinks on them causes any sort of damage that can't just be wiped off. They are plastic.

and why don't they change the whole deck, instead of 8 cards?
In a tournament with million dollar prizes, you would hardly think cost is a reasonable argument.

HOW could such a thing happen? cards leftin some muck tray? Shuffler device? I mean it just seems so unprofessional.

Quote: FleaStiff

HOW could such a thing happen? cards leftin some muck tray? Shuffler device? I mean it just seems so unprofessional.

In live poker, there is no muck tray. Also, tournaments rarely (never?) use shuffling machines. Particularly tournaments of this size, no shufflers.

How it happens is simple. During all breaks, the dealers re-set the deck and re-examine them. It was during this process that the damaged cards were discovered. Apparently there was no supervision, by players or otherwise, to make sure the replacements were OK. After all, this wasn't a 10 minute break, but a dinner break.

How the cards got damaged in the first place is a different question. I was under the impression that, a couple years back, the WSOP started using cards that had the logo, including year on the backs. That being the case, they might not have been designed to last a lifetime - just long enough to last for that year's WSOP and look good enough in the gift shop afterwards....

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For the record, dealers generally count down the stub while river betting is going on. Often, because they are also running the game, they will just count an even number of cards then do what they have to do to run the table, then continue counting. All they care about is that the stub contains an even number of cards. Several missing cards, as long as it's an even number, can go on missing for quite a while.

The shuffler machines will not shuffle the cards unless there are 52 - so that's one advantage of using a shuffler.

Kem cards can quite often get damaged - some get finger nail marks on them (whether intentional or not) and they can get warped by players who aggressively peek at their cards by turning up the corners. If a casino uses the deck for a long time then they can start to show signs of being worn in places and a slight discoloration can result.

Was this the first seven hands played after a break? If so, why not make it even by returning to each player the number of chips he started the round with ? I mean this is supposed to be the World Series, not a game in the back of the pool room. Imagine when a player at that table got eliminated later and thought back to that hand where he thought he had 8 outs but only had 5 ??? What a way to lose your dream ??

Kem cards can quite often get damaged - some get finger nail marks on them "

Doyle Brunson thinks sunglasses should be outlawed at poker tables for that very reason. Fingernail indentations can be more easily seen with sunglasses. Not that anyone would use that to their advantage. LOL

Switch and Mr. Casino Games. As poker players and club owners, particularly the latter, how would you have handled the situation?
Not at the WSOP, but if you were running your own multi-table tournament. Since they don't toot their own horn, I will. Both of these gentlemen are world class poker players. REALLY !!

Quote: buzzpaff

Was this the first seven hands played after a break? If so, why not make it even by returning to each player the number of chips he started the round with ? I mean this is supposed to be the World Series, not a game in the back of the pool room. Imagine when a player at that table got eliminated later and thought back to that hand where he thought he had 8 outs but only had 5 ??? What a way to lose your dream ??

What's the significance of "seven hands" ?

For what it's worth, the ruling that the there be no do-over or other comensation is the correct one. Unless someone is wise to the situation, 8 missing cards are played just as if those 8 cards always remained at the bottom of the stub.

Quote: buzzpaff

Switch and Mr. Casino Games. As poker players and club owners, particularly the latter, how would you have handled the situation?
Not at the WSOP, but if you were running your own multi-table tournament. Since they don't toot their own horn, I will. Both of these gentlemen are world class poker players. REALLY !!

Not that I'm saying it's wrong to toot, but Mr. CG has made statements that is was he who gave Dave Ulliott the "Devilfish" moniker.

I thought the post said only 7 hands were played. Mr. CG did indeed do that. He gave several players their nicknames. Me, he calls That Stupid American. LOL

Bottom of stack or not, decision are made on the probabilities of receiving by it's number versus the number of unknown cards, regardless of position in the deck.

While waiting for the resident poker experts to arrive, I have a question. I will not mention an infinite deck because my lack of knowledge in mathematics is also infinite. Still I wonder ??
You know those charts that say in a 10 handed game, AA wins 30% or about that. Assumes all 10 players stay to a showdown.
Ranks the hands accordingly OK
Now take 11 decks and deal 10 players , 2 cards each from a separate deck. Then use the 11th deck to remove from it all the cards in the
players hands. So no one player can make a hand not existing today. Would the percentages and ranking of hands change ? Would there be more or less split pots ? Or are the numbers just too big to do in an easy manner ?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

What's the significance of "seven hands" ?

I've read some articles where they state the shorage went undetected for 40 minutes. To me that sounds like it could be 15 hands. One article mentions that a later review of the security footage showed that the short deck was in play for only seven hands.

Apparently, some players noticed right away, as the reason the deck was checked was due to player complaints, not the dealer counting down the stub. Still, seven hands means the button didn't make a full orbit of the table, and several players put up blinds using the short deck. Also, the reason cards were removed was that damage was noted. If one player damaged the cards, or knew which cards were removed, and also knew that the deck in play was now missing some or all of those cards, it would be a powerful advantage.

If you knew the deck was short a few cards, but didn't know which ones were missing, how could you use that to your advantage?

I suspect by folding all drawing hands, (connectors, flushes), and raising all pocket pairs, but am not sure. Would you play A-K (suited or not)?

If one player damaged the cards, or knew which cards were removed, and also knew that the deck in play was now missing some or all of those cards, it would be a powerful advantage.

One more reason to back things up and start all over. But waiting for the experts !!

Experts ?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

How the cards got damaged in the first place is a different question. I was under the impression that, a couple years back, the WSOP started using cards that had the logo, including year on the backs. That being the case, they might not have been designed to last a lifetime - just long enough to last for that year's WSOP and look good enough in the gift shop afterwards....

You are exactly right about the special cardbacks -- Kem actually makes these cards available to the public on their website. They are exactly the same as other plastic Kem cards (that is, meant to last a lifetime) except that the cardbacks have the WSOP logo, the year, and, sometimes, the Bicycle logo as well, which Bicycle paid to have placed there even though they had no involvement with the design or manufacture of the cards (as I understand the situation).

I've also seen standard Kem cards used on other poker shows -- Poker Mansion or whatever it's called comes to mind.

Which begs the question, How in the hell do 8 cards get damaged and have to be replaced ???
Still awaiting expert decision on how they would have handled it, were it their tournament ?

I never ran tournaments - I just ran cash games with Steve along with playing in them.

I put that "It depends" as there are a lot of factors involved. However, in this scenario, where the dealer changed the cards unknown to the players, then everyone is basically in the same boat. The only reason I didn't tick "Makes no difference" is that it could make a small difference so "no" is too big a word IMO.

For example, it could even boil down to the actual 8 cards that were removed. For example, if 7 of the 8 cards removed were high then it may favor the more aggressive players as the tighter players may have less chance of picking up a hand worth defending. Nevertheless, this is a marginal point that players could argue with.

With only 7 hands dealt and providing that the tournament Director was reasonably sure that none of the other players knew about the missing cards then I don't feel that any further action, or compensation, should be taken and the play should continue with a full deck.

I feel that part of the uproar is based on the surprising fact that the dealer didn't detect a light deck as well as not checking by performing a countdown after the board had been dealt. This is magnified by the fact that it took place at the WSOP.

One night, I went with Steve to a private cash game held in a Chinese Restaurant. The players were mainly Chinese and Chinese was also spoken at the table although I was relaxed as Steve can speak it if there was anything suspicious being said.

On the first hand I noticed that one of the cards dealt to me had a mark on it - it was the Ace of Clubs. I didn't want to say anything as I was new and didn't want to give any indication that I was accusing them of using a marked deck. We played for about 4 hours and afterwards I said to Steve that I'd noticed the Ace of Clubs was marked. He had also seen it and said nothing (and I assume the whole table knew) yet nobody said anything about it during the game. I suppose we all had the same 'advantage' but found it strange that nothing was said, even by the host :-)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Not that I'm saying it's wrong to toot, but Mr. CG has made statements that is was he who gave Dave Ulliott the "Devilfish" moniker.

It's true - I was with him that night that he came up with the name.

We originally thought of Angel Fish but decided that it didn't suit his character :-)

Steve said "Devil Fish" and I replied that no such fish existed (I didn't realise at the time that there was an actual 'Devil Fish'). Steve decided that it suited him and so the name came about.