Poker Sportsmanship

I just want to see where this falls on the Scale of Douchebaggery.

The setup - It's a 5-man $500 No Limit Hold Em game between coworkers. I like to start with the 'Any Two Will Do' strategy and get in every hand at the beginning. It's $5/$10 blinds and I'll usually throw in $10 on my every turn. I find this is a good way to take an early chip lead, as everyone is usually quite conservative to start and will fold most anything but two pair or above. If I happen to get caught, I can usually get out of it without taking a big hit, and I find that more often than not, someone will get frustrated at me 'buying the pot' and will throw in in frustration, usually when I have something. I'm not saying I'm a poker whiz, I'm just saying it usually works way too good for me.

So it happens again. I steal a number of blinds and calls on nothing. The New Guy has finally had enough and goes big, the Old Timer agrees that I'm full of it and calls, and I happened to flop 3 Aces. I'm off to a banging start.

I hold the chip lead for the next hour. Chips are going more slowly now as people nickel and dime back and forth. I'm playing low money now, mostly just to keep the game going since we have time to kill. And, I'm still killing them. Quiet Guy gets a Flush, I get a Full House. New Guy gets a Full House with pocket 9's, I have pocket Kings. Boss Lady has Ace/2, with 3, 4, 5, 6 on the board, I have a 7. It was just dumb. I have won nearly every showdown and more than 50% of the total hands so far, and this fact is not lost on my opponents. And here's where it gets grimey.

The cards are dealt. Everyone goes in. Flop comes 3s, 6s, 9s. I'm ready to trash the hand, just knowing that someone has the Flush. Check, check, check to me, and figuring everyones missed the Flush, I say what the hell and toss my obligatory $10 in. Quiet Guy folds, New Guy calls $10, Boss Lady raises to $25. Would she check-raise a flopped Flush? F* it, even all-in she wouldn't hurt me that much, I'll pay to see it. Old Timer folds, I call the $25, New Guy stays in with $25.

Turn comes Jh. No help there. New Guy checks, Boss Lady raises to $50. Hmmm. I'm pretty sure I'm had, but who cares! Bam!, and downs goes my $50. New Guy calls $50.

River comes 5s. SOMEONES got to have the Flush. New Guy checks. Boss Lady goes all-in with her remaining cheques, it was almost $100. I sit there and look at her for a moment, and New Guy chirps out 'I'll call that' and starts breaking out his cheques. I don't know if him skipping me is 'illegal', but it's a private game and we allow it. It happens frequently. I look at him and ask for verification. 'You're calling her?' 'Yup' he says and tosses his cheques in. I look right at him and declare 'All-In'.

The exchange which follows went like this:
New Guy: How much you got?
Me: Are you calling?
NG: How much you got?
Me: (shows stacks) More than you. Calling?
NG: Yeah. How much?
Me: (smiling like the cat that got the canary) It don't matter.
NG: (breaking down cheques) I got $100...$200...$205...
Me: (cuts him off) It don't matter.
NG: (looks up suspiciously) ...You got the Ace...(not sure if it was a question or accusation)
Me: (flashes shit-eating grin) (giggles)
NG: (stares unbelievingly) Damn it! I swear,...every freaking hand, man! (throws cards in) Just take it...I can't believe...(muttering and ramblings)
Me: (laughing out loud)
Old Timer: (to NG) I told you! He's the Devil. River Rat.
NG: Yup. The Devil. Always....every hand!! Christ. (pushes cheques in, leaves the table)
Boss Lady: (shows cards, 9/9) I got trips.
Me: (shows cards, Ah/8s) Got the flush.
Old Timer: (laughing) Oh, you son of a bitch. (laughs more)
NG: (from the other side of the room) Flush what?!
Old Timer: (dieing laughing)
Me: (smiling) 8
NG: (runs back to table, grabs cards and smacks them down. 2c/Ks) Bastard! Eight? EIGHT?! I thought you had Ace!
(Table Laughs)
Me: I did (points to Ah)
NG: But...Bu...ACE of SPADES!!
Me: I didn't say I had Ace of Spades. I didn't even say I had an Ace.
NG: I had KING! I would've won!
Me: (shrugs) I didn't tell you to quit.
NG: (sighs, shakes head) ....The fucking Devil. (walks away)
Old Timer: Wow. That was nasty. (smiles, wipes eyes) Well played.

Ha-ha! Still makes me laugh. Regardless of the 'legality' of this (we play where verbal declarations are set in stone, laid is played, you said it you bet it. Not sure if casino Poker would rule the same) was this more playing poker to the ultimate limits of strategy and psychology, or was this just down and dirty, backwater scumbagedness?

Looks OK to me. Fun read.

One of the reasons I quit playing poker oh those many years ago was because I would do things like this. If it falls within the rules of the poker hall / poker room / poker group, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with. Whether or not it's morally wrong, well that's what people question. My thing was, I did everything within the strict letter of the rules, but I wasn't afraid to push the moral limits. After all, the objective of the game was to win other people's money, not make friends.

Poker's not that hard.

He shouldn't have said anything, allowing you to make your move. You could have flat called Boss-Lady's bet or raised/pushed all in to push him out and isolate your 8-high flush.

He would have then had a decision to make against one or two callers.

If that sort of conversation is how you all normally play, then all's well in the neighborhood. In a "real" poker room, you both should earn a slap on the wrist for collaborative play. Even though New Guy started it, neither one of you should be discussing your hands with a 3rd party in-hand.

Since you weren't in a "real" room, I think you played it perfectly!

Quote: konceptum

Whether or not it's morally wrong, well that's what people question.

Morally wrong? Fuck 'em. Poker is all about psychology, and bluffing. By that I do NOT mean you're supposed to bluff all the time, but figure out if the other guy is bluffing or not

Quote: konceptum

After all, the objective of the game was to win other people's money, not make friends.

I still have a postcard from Borgata about their poker room: "Make new friends. Take their money."

Great story. However, you did steal from the new guy, outside of the rules of Poker. In every poker room I have ever been in, an all-in hand is protected and can not be mucked in error.

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Quote: 98steps

Great story. However, you did steal from the new guy, outside of the rules of Poker. In every poker room I have ever been in, an all-in hand is protected and can not be mucked in error.

I re-read the verbal exchange. If it really happened as written, then I do not think rules were broken.

In tournaments, all-in hands must be shown. But not so in cash games.

The new guy made a bad assumption and voluntarily mucked his cards, before checking to see if he was beat.

Great story and seems like you did it to a guy who watches a lot of ESPN. Anyways, my guess is in a poker room the floorman would declare the out of turn bet nonbinding and given him a warning.

OK, I missed something on first read. Once he put his chips in, it's a showdown. He can't call and fold, he either calls OR folds.

His pot. Your chance to bluff was before he said "call", after he made his decision you can't bluff him a second time into folding.

Quote: Mosca

His pot. Your chance to bluff was before he said "call", after he made his decision you can't bluff him a second time into folding.

Not entirely true. He threw his cards into the muck. The question is, were his cards "lost" in the muck, or were they retrievable?

New Guy should read Google "Robert's Rules of Poker".

Quote: Robert's Rules, Dead Hands

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

Therefore, he should have announced what his cards were, and pulled them out. If he pulled out the right cards, he would win the pot. If he failed to pull out the right cards on the first try, then it's tough luck.

It seems to me from the original post, that New Guy claimed to have the king, but made no effort to prove it. In that case, the fold stands.

There is also the question of the incorrect info given to that player. That's arguable, and the point of this thread.

Thanks for the great replies. Let's see if I can clear some of this up.

Quote: 98steps

Great story. However, you did steal from the new guy, outside of the rules of Poker. In every poker room I have ever been in, an all-in hand is protected and can not be mucked in error.

Quote: AZDuffman

Great story and seems like you did it to a guy who watches a lot of ESPN. Anyways, my guess is in a poker room the floorman would declare the out of turn bet nonbinding and given him a warning.

Quote: Mosca

OK, I missed something on first read. Once he put his chips in, it's a showdown. He can't call and fold, he either calls OR folds.

His pot. Your chance to bluff was before he said "call", after he made his decision you can't bluff him a second time into folding.

I understand both the out-of-turn betting and the mucking of his all-in call would be disallowed in legal gambling. However, both are clearly allowed in our game, as it doesn't cause unfair issue like collaboration. His calling early gave me an advantage (I knew he had something somewhat good and now need to worry), but that was his own error. He sure wasn't trying to help me. In other words, we allow fools to be fools.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Not entirely true. He threw his cards into the muck. The question is, were his cards "lost" in the muck, or were they retrievable?

New Guy should read Google "Robert's Rules of Poker".Therefore, he should have announced what his cards were, and pulled them out. If he pulled out the right cards, he would win the pot. If he failed to pull out the right cards on the first try, then it's tough luck.

It seems to me from the original post, that New Guy claimed to have the king, but made no effort to prove it. In that case, the fold stands.

There is also the question of the incorrect info given to that player. That's arguable, and the point of this thread.

Yes, he threw his cards in, his cheques in, declared 'just take it' and walked from the table. And yes, his cards were easily retrieved and were so after the fact, and he did have and did show the Ks. But, by our rules, which are well known, he knowingly and inarguably folded his hand.

I'm not sure what you meant by "incorrect info given to that player", though. As you'll see, I didn't say a thing that could be construed as "incorrect". At the start of the conversation, all I said was "It don't matter" in refering to my cheque count, which was true. I obviously had more than him; him counting out his cheques was unnecessary. It became apparent to me, in the ensuing exchange of words, that my claim of 'it not mattering' is something he took as 'I had him beat'. Morally, I feel no guilt in this part since in my mind, that was exactly what I meant - 'It don't matter because I have more cheques'.
Ditto for me laughing when he questioned/accused me of having the Ace. Laughing/smiling IS my Poker face. Sitting stoic is unnatural to me, and trying to do so reveals some tells. Whether I got The Nuts, garbage, stone cold bluff, whatever, I can't help but smile and giggle. So I also feel no guilt if my big cheese grin and tittering made him think I had him beat. I wasn't doing it to intimidate him, I did it because that's what I do.

I guess my point of this wasn't so much the legality of this (legally it's wrong, by our rules right) but the morality of it all. Even though I don't feel I was misleading based on the my actions descibed in the above paragraph, there was a point where I saw what was happening. I saw him thinking his way into his own demise (which did make me giggle harder =D). And I dunno....it's that old 'it's not whether you win or lose. it's how you play the game' issue. To me, competition is is huge. I'd almost say sacred. And my personal measure of success is Honor. It doesn't matter if it's motorsports, hockey, football, stickball, prison ball, rumble, whatever, if you play your best and play with honor then you cannot lose. Play without honor and you cannot win. Here I don't THINK I was dishonorable, yet I FEEL like it was. It's just a weird paradox I haven't experienced before, and wondered what y'all thought about it. That, and wanted to share a good story with those who'd appreciate it =) Thanks again for playing.

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Quote: gofaster87

Your right DJ, the guy never did produce the king. He could have been full of shit about his muck. Poker players are not known for their honest answers about their hand.

No, he did show it.

Quote: Face

NG: (runs back to table, grabs cards and smacks them down. 2c/Ks) Bastard! Eight? EIGHT?! I thought you had Ace!

(bold added to highlight)

There was no question he had me beat. (Sorry for the confusion, hard to recreate a scene using only text.)

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Quote: Face

I'm not sure what you meant by "incorrect info given to that player", though.

That was the phrase used in Robert's Rules, and refers to the vague info about the Ace, causing his bad assumption. Sure, there was no "incorrect info", but there was an incorrect implication.

And "the point of this thread" I mentioned, was, I believe there was no moral or ethical problem with your actions. Poker players are responsible for knowing what the action is at all times. Gaining from another player's mistake is what poker is all about.

When he retrieved his cards and showed a winning hand, house rules prevail. Apparently, his mucked hand remained dead. Knowing the rules is also a player's responsibility.

Quote: gofaster87

I just reread the script and its hard to call. Your right there was mention of him finally showing his cards. If there was an actual casino poker dealer in the room they might have stopped the muck and just flipped his cards over to show the other two and call the winner. Ive actually seen this happen.

That really depends on the casino and the dealer. Some dealers in some casinos will shove mucked cards into the muck pile preventing it from being retrieved.

Well, I somehow missed the first line in the OP story. I would say that if you are dealing with friends, family, or co-workers, as you are, then you have issues that may come up more than just whether or not your actions were immoral or moral, not that it really matters. The more important issue may be whether or not your actions are going to affect your ability to interact with your co-workers in the future.

As long as there are no repercussions of your actions, then anything that is allowed within the rules of your game are fine.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

That really depends on the casino and the dealer. Some dealers in some casinos will shove mucked cards into the muck pile preventing it from being retrieved.

Most will. Because once either card hits the much, it's a pain in the ass (although, not necessarily a technical impossibility with cameras overhead) to determine which cards are which.

This guy did everything in his power to screw himself. It's hard to feel bad for him. Still, this is why I avoid house games. Too much jackassery. And what I really mean is that there is too much variation in rules.

Not saying yours are right or wrong or better or worse than "real" (casino) poker rules. I simply dislike the variance in rule-sets.

What he should have done is thrown in his cards face up, and made you prove you had him beat.

I personally feel you pulled a stroke on him, and if I had caught you doing it I would have give you a firm warning not to try it again. I

In a home game i say "That's how poker should be played", In a casino I say "Legal but you're still a bstrd" (but in an endearing way)

The guy mucked without tabling, and you hadn't tabled. His own fault. He called you so he should have waited for you to table. If you had said something to the effect that you did 'have the ace' then that would put you solidly in the bstrd category..giggling means nothing. IMHO.

No wrong has been committed here so I don't see a reason to give the guy a chance to retrieve from the muck.

When playing in a casino I always just expose my hand and let the dealer call it!

Quote: buzzpaff

When playing in a casino I always just expose my hand and let the dealer call it!

I'm one for doing that unless I win the pot outright because everyone folds on you at the end. I had a situation like that where I had 2 pair (A's and 10's) and pushed everyone out of the pot because they thought I had the flush. The smart poker player just nods and lets them think what they want. No need to make them angry or figure you out at the table...

-B

Quote: buzzpaff

When playing in a casino I always just expose my hand and let the dealer call it!

While that's a good idea if you get a brain fart and can't figure it out, don't depend on the dealer calling it correctly.

The owner of the poker league I play at is a former dealer from the Taj Mahal. She tells me that dealers are supposed to announce every face up hand at a showdown, so that not only does the dealer have to really look at it, but so that the player, and other players, have a chance to correct an incorrect call.


Here's three cases off the top of my head:

A - I had already folded. At the showdown, the player who raised last showed his hand as he should have. A player who thought he was beat, turned up his pocket pair. The dealer flipped it over and put it in the muck. I spoke up and asked him if he had pocket 6s. He said yes. I said that's a full house winner. Call the floor, etc, etc, etc. The player with the full house eventually got the pot.

B - I was in a hand where I needed one card for a straight flush. At the river, I hit my S.F. At the showdown, another player showed the ace high flush. I had a brain fart and thought I was beat. I flipped my cards up in disgust. A few seconds later, as the dealer was starting to push the pot to a full house, I did the five fingers thing and then announced straight flush!

C - I've told this story before, where I wanted to kill a dealer. I was all-in when a side pot developed. At the showdown, I showed my pocket pair which made a full house. The dealer turned it over. I thought, OK, let's award the side pot first. It went to a nut flush. I then turned my pair up again, and again the dealer turned it down and started to push the pot to the nut flush. Unfortunately, he also pushed my cards into the muck. I stopped him from pushing the pot, but had an argument about my cards. I don't remember how it was verified without finding the cards, but about a minute later, I was getting the pot.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

C - I've told this story before, where I wanted to kill a dealer. I was all-in when a side pot developed. At the showdown, I showed my pocket pair which made a full house. The dealer turned it over. I thought, OK, let's award the side pot first. It went to a nut flush. I then turned my pair up again, and again the dealer turned it down and started to push the pot to the nut flush. Unfortunately, he also pushed my cards into the muck. I stopped him from pushing the pot, but had an argument about my cards. I don't remember how it was verified without finding the cards, but about a minute later, I was getting the pot.

I had gotten into the habit of turning over my two cards, spreading them, and then playing my index and ring finger from one hand onto them, until the dealer could show me a better hand. The very majority of the time, I was the loser, and a little red-faced and embarrassed about holding my cards and insisting they were the winner. But a few times, it did save me from a dealer trying to muck my cards when I was the winer.

The Cards Read. If they're face-up, they read, and are to be read.

N&B

Quote: NandB

The Cards Read. If they're face-up, they read, and are to be read.

You'd think that, but, as I mentioned in my story, my cards were face up, but not read by anyone.

Normal dealer procedure is that any hand that's face up is supposed to be read out loud. Of course, there are many lazy dealers that don't do that, but that's the procedure.

Quote: PerpetualNewbie

jackassery

Wow! That's a new word to me and I like it.