Asking to see showdown hands

I was playing 1-2 No Limit Hold Em the other day when a player who was no longer in the hand, asked the dealer to see the two showdown hands when it was over. The player sitting next to me, who was not in the hand, got quite upset that the dealer would agree to turn over hands in a no limit game. After all, bluffing is such a big part of the game, that being able to choose whether or not to show your cards should be at the discretion of each player.

Initally, I disagreed with him, reasoning that being allowed to see both hands was the most effective means for deterring collusion. His response was that it might have been the case in the days when games were player dealt, but it wasn't such a concern now that there were house dealers and shuffling machines. I think he has a point, but I would not want to give up my right to see all hands if I suspected players were teaming up to drive others out of pots, then soft playing each other. What say you?

Quote: Ayecarumba

I was playing 1-2 No Limit Hold Em the other day when a player who was no longer in the hand, asked the dealer to see the two showdown hands when it was over. The player sitting next to me, who was not in the hand, got quite upset that the dealer would agree to turn over hands in a no limit game. After all, bluffing is such a big part of the game, that being able to choose whether or not to show your cards should be at the discretion of each player.

Initally, I disagreed with him, reasoning that being allowed to see both hands was the most effective means for deterring collusion. His response was that it might have been the case in the days when games were player dealt, but it wasn't such a concern now that there were house dealers and shuffling machines. I think he has a point, but I would not want to give up my right to see all hands if I suspected players were teaming up to drive others out of pots, then soft playing each other. What say you?

You don't call, you don't get to see the winning hand. End of story.

Quote: AZDuffman

You don't call, you don't get to see the winning hand. End of story.

I don't understand your post. If the hand goes to a showdown, everybody at the table must see the winning hand.

I would never ask to see the losing hand, unless I had real cause to suspect that shenanigans were going on. And I doubt I'd recognize shenanigans if you beat me over the head with 'em.

My rule-of-thumb ...

If you CALL someone, you have every right to see their cards, but you may or may not ask. If you ask and they show, you may or may not show.

If you ARE CALLED by someone, don't turn over unless they ask.

My $0.02.

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

If you ARE CALLED by someone, don't turn over unless they ask.

Perhaps my ignorance is showing. If you get called at the showdown, aren't you required (or at least expected) to show your hand first? I get really annoyed by players who go to lengths to try to conceal their hands despite being called at the showdown.

Quote: PapaChubby

I don't understand your post. If the hand goes to a showdown, everybody at the table must see the winning hand.

I would never ask to see the losing hand, unless I had real cause to suspect that shenanigans were going on. And I doubt I'd recognize shenanigans if you beat me over the head with 'em.

The only time a hand must be shown is when the player is called. The person who was called must then show their hand. The caller may then either show his better hand or muck without showing. I'm not a card room manager so I am not sure the winner ever has the "right" to see a mucked hand, but if I were a manager I would rule that you do not have the right, any player may surrender and muck their hand at any time and the only time you have a right to see their hand is if they are making a claim to the pot.

All-in showdowns are different, at that point both sides show.

A player not in a hand should never have a right to ask about anyone's cards.

This is all based on my experience.

In cash games, whoever is called must show first. Or he can muck, in which case the pot is awarded to the unmucked live hand, whether it is shown or not.

In tournaments, it's different. Whoever is called must show first, or IF he elects to muck instead, players at the table can ask to see it. This is to prevent collusion in tournaments.

That's why in tournaments when there is an all in bet between 2 players the player's cards are turned face-up. Collusion is going on a lot more than the public is aware of. If you have not been cheated in an online poker room , then you have not played in one.

Quote: PapaChubby

Perhaps my ignorance is showing. If you get called at the showdown, aren't you required (or at least expected) to show your hand first? I get really annoyed by players who go to lengths to try to conceal their hands despite being called at the showdown.

No, no ignorance ... different ways to play the same rule, that's all.

I've always assumed that I didn't have to show unless asked, unless house/tourney rules say otherwise. Usually, they don't. FWIW, I don't not-show to be a jerkface, I do it to give as little info as possible. When you're as marginal a player as I am, you need to do everything within the rules to help yourself.

Sometimes, I'll call someone and not turn over. He'll say, "okay, show me what you have." I'll answer, "I called *you*," and he'll go ahead and show. Then, I'll muck if I've lost. If someone wants to see my muck, they're within their rights to ask, so I don't muck into the Muck in case someone asks.

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

No, no ignorance ... different ways to play the same rule, that's all.

I've always assumed that I didn't have to show unless asked, unless house/tourney rules say otherwise. Usually, they don't. FWIW, I don't not-show to be a jerkface, I do it to give as little info as possible. When you're as marginal a player as I am, you need to do everything within the rules to help yourself.

Sometimes, I'll call someone and not turn over. He'll say, "okay, show me what you have." I'll answer, "I called *you*," and he'll go ahead and show. Then, I'll muck if I've lost. If someone wants to see my muck, they're within their rights to ask, so I don't muck into the Muck in case someone asks.

I have no problem with your behavior in the last paragraph. Since the other player was called, it is his obligation to show. If this reveals that you are beat, I believe convention indicates you are allowed to muck. I think officially you are required to show if someone asks, but this is rarely done. In your example, it is your opponent that I consider a jerkface because it was his obligation to show and he tried to get you to show first/instead.

Part of Poker is knowing the rules. And you should ask the floorman which set of rules they follow. The standard is Robert's Rules Of Poker (Google it).


Based on Robert's Rules:

In a tournament, the winner of a called bet must show both cards. In the interest of time, if the caller shows a winning hand, the bettor does not have to show his cards. If a player goes all-in, after all action is completed, all players must show their cards before any additional board cards are dealt.

In a cash game, if the bettor of a called bets mucks, the other player wins, and does not have to show any cards.

Any player that was dealt in, can ask to see cards of either or both showdown hands - provided the priviledge is not overused (and that decision is up to the floor). If the winner of the hand asks to see the folder's cards, the folder's cards become live. If he, for whatever reason, folded the winning hand, he is awarded the pot.


Based upon these rules, if you're in a hand, called a bet, the bettor is reluctant to show, and you're unsure if you have the winning hand or not, instead of saying "I paid to see your cards," say "Either show or muck."

I don't ask. I don't show unless required, unless i just got a BB walk, then I show those for fun.

This came up at The Orleans, in Vegas, the other night, where a player, who was not involved in the hand, asked to see the losing hand.

The 'official' rule from The Orleans is that if a player, who is involved in the hand, asks to see the mucked cards then the hand becomes live. If, however, a player, not involved in the hand, asks to see the mucked hand, then the card is declared void and turned over for all to see.

I did see it once whereby an experienced Omaha player, who apparently had won the hand, asked what on earth his opponent was calling with. The opponent, a recreational player, turned his hand over to show a busted straight draw and then realised that he had hit a backdoor flush. So the pot was handed to him instead :-)

Sometimes curiosity does kill the cat.