Poll

2 votes (33.33%)
4 votes (66.66%)
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May 4th, 2022 at 7:43:12 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

The better question in all this..........Who's the brunette ???
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the chess queen... she won 500K and barely plays poker she def had a coach though
DJTeddyBear
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Thanks for this post from:
Gandlergordonm888
May 4th, 2022 at 1:09:29 PM permalink
Initial opinion: Not a fold.


FYI: I deal poker in a pub league in NJ. I'm known in the league as the Rules Guru.

While I have not had a chance to watch the video, I've seen the type of situation described often enough to give you a summary of the relevant rules.


First, I assume that this is a cash game. Tournaments tend to have stricter rules.

Second, some rules that rarely come into play (but are a big part of this hand) tend to be governed by 'House Rules'. I.E. They're not consistent from place to place.


Now, on to the 'Rules'.

The 'Line' is often meaningless. When placing a bet, the chips need to be placed forward of the cards, not necessarily forward of the line. (The line is actually there to give the maintenance person who changes the felt something to use to measure / center the felt on the table.)

When a player folds, the dealer is supposed to gather the cards into the muck making them impossible to retrieve.

Did Phil actually say "fold"? I'm guessing not.

Cards that are accidentally pushed into the muck so that they are unidentifiable are dead. Cards that are accidentally pushed near the muck, but are still identifiable, CAN be retrieved and remain live.

In cash games (but never in a tournament), when only two players are left in the hand, the player facing a decision can expose his cards in an effort to get a reaction from the other player. As such, the dealer was correct to not pull the cards into the muck.

Other than the when trying to get that reaction, experienced players know enough never to expose their hand until the showdown, and never put their card into the muck until the winner of the hand has been declared by the dealer. And even then make sure the dealer's decision is correct.

Note: There are cases where players have revived their hands, even AFTER saying 'fold'. That's another reason to not only wait for the decision, but also wait for folded hands to be mucked.

If Slime is playing at a level where he's in a game with Phil Hellmuth, Tom Dwan, etc., he should be experienced enough to have known better. He should have waited until Phil痴 hand was in the muck or his chips were moved forward to make the call.


Bottom line, it may have been Phil's intent to fold. But it was also his option to play his cards once he realized he had the winning hand.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Gandler
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May 4th, 2022 at 2:26:43 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Initial opinion: Not a fold.


FYI: I deal poker in a pub league in NJ. I'm known in the league as the Rules Guru.

While I have not had a chance to watch the video, I've seen the type of situation described often enough to give you a summary of the relevant rules.


First, I assume that this is a cash game. Tournaments tend to have stricter rules.

Second, some rules that rarely come into play (but are a big part of this hand) tend to be governed by 'House Rules'. I.E. They're not consistent from place to place.


Now, on to the 'Rules'.

The 'Line' is often meaningless. When placing a bet, the chips need to be placed forward of the cards, not necessarily forward of the line. (The line is actually there to give the maintenance person who changes the felt something to use to measure / center the felt on the table.)

When a player folds, the dealer is supposed to gather the cards into the muck making them impossible to retrieve.

Did Phil actually say "fold"? I'm guessing not.

Cards that are accidentally pushed into the muck so that they are unidentifiable are dead. Cards that are accidentally pushed near the muck, but are still identifiable, CAN be retrieved and remain live.

In cash games (but never in a tournament), when only two players are left in the hand, the player facing a decision can expose his cards in an effort to get a reaction from the other player. As such, the dealer was correct to not pull the cards into the muck.

Other than the when trying to get that reaction, experienced players know enough never to expose their hand until the showdown, and never put their card into the muck until the winner of the hand has been declared by the dealer. And even then make sure the dealer's decision is correct.

Note: There are cases where players have revived their hands, even AFTER saying 'fold'. That's another reason to not only wait for the decision, but also wait for folded hands to be mucked.

If Slime is playing at a level where he's in a game with Phil Hellmuth, Tom Dwan, etc., he should be experienced enough to have known better. He should have waited until Phil痴 hand was in the muck or his chips were moved forward to make the call.


Bottom line, it may have been Phil's intent to fold. But it was also his option to play his cards once he realized he had the winning hand.
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I appreciate your detailed response. I am not doubting your knowledge of the rules as both a dealer and a lawyer.

I always operate under the assumption that the line is the trench or bet line (or whatever different people call it), and that once pushed over chips are in play and cards are dead once contact with the chips or cards ends (assuming action is on you, or even if not in certain cases).

I agree that folding or mucking face up is never good (even more so if you are not 100% sure that the player acted), but this is a player that from what I have read has never played poker before (I think that was the whole premise of this show, that a handful of pro players and a handful of successful video game players with minimal knowledge of poker would play together, so the pro players should have a massive edge by design). It just seems like even if at this location his hand was not dead, and he did not intend to fold, he took advantage of a player who is not on his level and probably did not know the rules (and was probably showing to genuinely be nice). This is going slightly off topic, but this is one issue with inconsistent house rules.

I am not sure I think that stating "I fold" verbally is the definitive only way to fold and any other fold (or not fold) should be reversible, because virtually nobody states this, and this could be easily abused any time somebody bluff shows for fun.

I had no idea that the line was just invented for maintenance purposes that is interesting.

What are your thoughts on showing his hand to others for advice when you are at a final decision (last player to act, and everyone before you is all in)? Say for example, he clearly did not fold, but people at the table (as they did) said, "well show us what you have" in response to "what should I do", if he kept his cards in his hands (in a way that was clearly not a fold) and showed the table and let people chime in on what to do is this allowed? Because even if his intent was to not fold, this would have been his other intent, which is fishy at best, but some people do it (if for no other reason to see the reaction of the all in players). Trying to get a reaction from a player is part of the game (maybe questionable in some cases), but showing and conferring with other players who are not in the hand seems like it should never be allowed, especially if they proceed to state what they folded.
unJon
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May 4th, 2022 at 2:49:36 PM permalink
I thought I heard the dealer call it a fold when Phil took action. That prompted other person to flip cards. Did I mishear?
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Gandler
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May 4th, 2022 at 3:50:47 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

I thought I heard the dealer call it a fold when Phil took action. That prompted other person to flip cards. Did I mishear?
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That is a good observation it seems around 1:11 in the top video I hear that too now.

However, the dealer is a lady, and it sounds like a man saying this, so I would guess it was another player. The commentators (and whoever does the graphics) seemed to think he folded initially as well right after this.
ksdjdj
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May 4th, 2022 at 4:57:46 PM permalink
link

The above link, should be the "complete stream of the event", and the relevant hand starts at around 1:46-1:47 (hour : minute).

Also, I voted "Not a Fold", but I was tossing up whether to vote "other^^^ " instead.

^^^: The main reason I was going pick "other" was because I think the "fold / not a fold" was not as important as "what he did afterwards*** ".

***: Even though he should have done something like this on the stream, in Phil's defense### he has given (or plans to give?) "slime_machine " - " $5,000 + 1/2 of the pot".

###: If the game was played under the exact same rules ("non-tournament rules") but all of his opponents were pro's, then I think he did "nothing wrong" (whether I like what he did or not, is besides the point).

----
Extra / Other Info:

From the small sample of videos I have seen so far of Phil, his "schtick" to me seem to be "that he plays a heel-like character" and / or "one of the most annoying players at the table" (no matter what level of player the opponents are).
Last edited by: ksdjdj on May 4, 2022
DJTeddyBear
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May 4th, 2022 at 7:22:02 PM permalink
Now that I致e watched the videos, I stand by my original opinion of not a fold.

I値l give them more detailed analysis tomorrow, when I知 at a keyboard.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
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May 5th, 2022 at 6:55:56 AM permalink
As I mentioned, I stand by my 'not a fold' comment above, but for different reasons.

OK. Here's my longer analysis.

Ignore everything I said about exposing cards in an attempt to get a reaction. While what I said was accurate, it's not what was going on in this hand.

At about 1:05 Phil slides his cards with a pretty good amount of velocity, and let go of them. Under ordinary circumstances, that certainly looks like a fold, which is why the commentators said he folded. (Except the direction he sent them was odd as it wasn't towards the dealer or muck pile.)

Folding is just how it appears based on that camera angle. Later in the video we realize that he slid them to Tom Dwan so Tom can take a look and "sweat the action." Obviously, the dealer and other players knew that.

Note that this sort of thing is frowned upon. Yes, there IS a rule about "One person to a hand." While a second player might influence the action, most players, including Tom, would refrain from doing so.

Anyway, once Tom looks, other players can request that the cards be shown after the hand is complete. It's the "Show one, show all" rule. Therefore, since the only remaining action was whether Phil would call or fold, saying "you might as well turn them over now," is a reasonable comment from anyone at the table.

All while this is going on, Phil states that he doesn't know what to do, and he does look truly confused.

So Phil turns the cards over.

Some poker rooms have a rule that if you turn your cards over in that manner (i.e. in an attempt to get a reaction), your hand is dead. But that rule usually only applies to tournaments. And certainly the dealer would then take the cards.

Since the dealer made no attempt to take the cards, Slime was incorrect to assume the hand was over. If anything, he should have waited till the dealer was pushing the chips, etc.

At that point, whatever Phil offered (it wasn't clear enough to me) was very gracious of him. Again, in a tournament, a floor person would make a ruling. But in cash games, rules can be ignored if players agree. Often, deals when there's all-ins are not allowed because they could be construed as collusion and/or chip dumping.

FYI: The reason cash games have somewhat more relaxed rules is simple. Players can get up any time they want. Therefore, each hand is independent of the others. Not so in tournaments.

Poker is generally governed by Robert's Rules of Poker. ("Robert" is Bob Ciaffone, a poker authority and columnist for Card Player magazine.) The Tournament Directors' Association has their own set of rules to augment and fill in the cracks left in Robert's Rules. One key concept in the TDA rules is what experienced players refer to as "Rule One": In some situations. the tournament director / floor person is free to make a ruling that violates some established rules, so long as it's in the best interest of the game.

Clearly, what happened here is relatively unprecedented, and not easily covered in the more relaxed rules of cash games. So, if anything, Rule 1 could be invoked to allow the deal to proceed.
Last edited by: DJTeddyBear on May 5, 2022
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
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May 5th, 2022 at 8:42:53 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I appreciate your detailed response. I am not doubting your knowledge of the rules as both a dealer and a lawyer.

I had no idea that the line was just invented for maintenance purposes that is interesting.

What are your thoughts on showing his hand to others for advice
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Thanks. Are you inferring that I'M a lawyer? I'm not - much to my mother's dismay. My middle name is LAWrence. She wanted me to be a lawyer right from the start.

The line may have been invented for the purpose you assumed. And it is still used that way in some poker rooms.

And, as I mentioned, I do NOT think Phil was looking for advice when he showed Tom the hand. He just wanted to have Tom share in his misery of not knowing what to do.



A couple more points I meant to mention.

Before Slime turned his hand over, he tapped the table three times. That's a poker player's way of saying "nice hand" or something. While it clearly indicates that he thought the hand was over, and maybe the dealer should have recognized the tap and indicated that the hand was NOT over (but might not have had enough reaction time to do so), the tap is something only an experienced player would know about.

Yeah, Phil has a reputation as a sore loser. If this hand had played differently, like if Phil had gone all in and Slime called with the lesser hand only to win, you would have seen one of Phil's trademark verbal explosions.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Gandler
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May 5th, 2022 at 7:09:45 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: Gandler

I appreciate your detailed response. I am not doubting your knowledge of the rules as both a dealer and a lawyer.

I had no idea that the line was just invented for maintenance purposes that is interesting.

What are your thoughts on showing his hand to others for advice
link to original post

Thanks. Are you inferring that I'M a lawyer? I'm not - much to my mother's dismay. My middle name is LAWrence. She wanted me to be a lawyer right from the start.

The line may have been invented for the purpose you assumed. And it is still used that way in some poker rooms.

And, as I mentioned, I do NOT think Phil was looking for advice when he showed Tom the hand. He just wanted to have Tom share in his misery of not knowing what to do.



A couple more points I meant to mention.

Before Slime turned his hand over, he tapped the table three times. That's a poker player's way of saying "nice hand" or something. While it clearly indicates that he thought the hand was over, and maybe the dealer should have recognized the tap and indicated that the hand was NOT over (but might not have had enough reaction time to do so), the tap is something only an experienced player would know about.

Yeah, Phil has a reputation as a sore loser. If this hand had played differently, like if Phil had gone all in and Slime called with the lesser hand only to win, you would have seen one of Phil's trademark verbal explosions.
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I thought you were a lawyer for some reason, I am sorry (I must have got you mixed up in my head, there are several lawyers here).

Even if we give him the total benefit of the doubt as far as intention and action, I don't think its right (even if legal) to show other players your cards while still in the hand. Even if he just wanted one specific player to sweat his action, by revealing his hand to the while table he opens up comments to everyone to say "Oh I folded two nines", etc.... in addition to seeing the all-ins reaction... And while such comments may be far-fetched at a professional table or even a normal recreational table, when the majority of the table is professional video game players and YouTube influencers (who presumably love to make comments) and who do not play poker occasionally (or at all before this), this is not far-fetched.

It just seems that even presuming his intentions in the best possible light, he was making the most of a situation that was questionable to begin with.

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