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SOOPOO
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Caldergordonm888Hunterhill
March 26th, 2021 at 12:05:53 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Yes, it is a shame poker can't be more like real life, where everything is fair. Perhaps casinos could give everyone who sits down a trophy. That seems fair.



I don’t agree at all with your snarky take. The guy cheated. One should expect that when entering a casino based poker tournament that the type of cheating that occurred would be prevented. A few posts back Axel summed it up well, and succinctly.
Vegasrider
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March 26th, 2021 at 1:43:21 PM permalink
Whenever I hear the word poker cheaters and scum, the people who were associated with Full Tilt comes to my mind.
Gandler
Gandler
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March 26th, 2021 at 3:52:08 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have seen enough evidence to know he was able to see other people's hole cards and he used that information to win money from them at the poker tables.



I have not. And, this is California where they are eager to charge just about anyone with just about anything, so I am guessing the state has not either....

I am simply not comfortable labeling somebody a cheater based on some awkward plays, and people saying he won more than he should over a period of time.

Postle denies cheating, Stones's investigator denies that he cheated, and there have been no criminal charges or as of yet even successful civil actions (against Postle, I know there was a settlement with Stones, where they payed each of the players 600ish, though as part of the settlement it was stated that no cheating occurred on the part of the Stones), sorry the evidence is simply not there as far as being able to him a cheater (also the settlement had nothing to do with Mike Postle).

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2020/09/details-regarding-stones-kuraitis-postle-poker-settlement-37983.htm

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article245724175.html


My question is, if you are going to cheat at poker why would you cheat at a recorded and streamed game where many people watch and will forever be online?

Let's grant for a moment all of the allegations, that Stones is in on it, the management was in on it etc... Why not play one of the many other games for the same stakes that are not streamed? It would be like a shoplifter choosing an aisle at a store where a news crew is filming to grab a candy bar and walk out.... It just makes no sense that the management would assist him in cheating in a streamed game when if this same thing happened at any other table nobody would care or be talking about it for the last two years....


Quote: gordonm888

Postle is slime. People commit crimes in ways in which they seek to leave no "smoking gun" evidence. Therefore, observers who insist on "smoking gun evidence" before passing judgment on an obvious cheat deserve whatever life doles out to them. IMO.



This is a pretty bold and egregious statement. I guess people who believe in "innocent until proven guilty" have what is coming to them?

Especially as we are talking about a game.... Where somebody allegedly cheated in a game.... We are not talking about something that caused physical harm...

If you are talking about a serial killer who admitted to it and boasted about it to the news before a formal conviction that would be one thing. But, we are talking about a game, where some hands were played in odd ways that may or may not have been cheating.... This is not the Colorado Shooter we are talking about.... This is a dude who maybe cheated some people in a card game (maybe). This post is pretty out of line.....
unJon
unJon
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March 26th, 2021 at 3:58:00 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

My question is, if you are going to cheat at poker why would you cheat at a recorded and streamed game where many people watch and will forever be online?

Because the alleged method of cheating required that the hands be streamed. He was (allegedly) watching the stream in real time.

Quote:

Let's grant for a moment all of the allegations, that Stones is in on it, the management was in on it etc... Why not play one of the many other games for the same stakes that are not streamed? It would be like a shoplifter choosing an aisle at a store where a news crew is filming to grab a candy bar and walk out.... It just makes no sense that the management would assist him in cheating in a streamed game when if this same thing happened at any other table nobody would care or be talking about it for the last two years....

See above answer.




Quote:

This is a pretty bold and egregious statement. I guess people who believe in "innocent until proven guilty" have what is coming to them?

Innocent until proven guilty is a rule of evidence for a courtroom. It’s not broader than that.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Gandler
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March 26th, 2021 at 5:10:45 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Because the alleged method of cheating required that the hands be streamed. He was (allegedly) watching the stream in real time.

See above answer.




No, not if the casino was orchestrating it. Casinos can very easily place RFIDs in any chips or cards without anyone knowing. If the top level of the casino was planning this (which lets be honest is kind of far fetched that they would risk so much for so little gain....), they could easily insert such decks into any game Postle was playing and relay the information to his phone (or his hat device, or just que him via secret shock devices , or whatever others are claiming....). In fact this would be very easy for a casino and very few people would know. I find it very hard to believe that upper level management would plan this all out and put him into a live streamed game....

If a casino wanted to collude with Postle to cheat players for some reason there are probably endless better ways to accomplish this that have far less exposure (probably even far more than I realize).... The only reason we know about Postle is because people took the time to watch the countless hours of play and determine he won more than he should and makes some odd plays, if none of this was recorded (publicly) nobody would ever know...

This is one of the main reasons that I am skeptical on the casino orchestration claims, it just seems too blatant. I am sure if a casino for some motive (which is another issue, why would a casino risk so much on such little gain comparatively and so much potential negative backlash) wanted to back a cheater I am sure there are endless "better" ways.


Quote: unJon

Innocent until proven guilty is a rule of evidence for a courtroom. It’s not broader than that.



Fair enough, but the overall principle is the same.
Generally in any field the person making the assertion has the burden to prove their assertion.

But, my primary issue with that poster is he seems to wish bad things on people who don't agree with him or choose to remain skeptical (which does not mean that I think he is innocent, just that I am not convinced of his guilt, certainly not with the fervor expressed by many on here, with many posts about what they want to do to Postle getting quite out of line.... for something that even if 100% of the allegations turn out to be 100% true, is just some dude cheating at mid stakes poker.... This is not a serial killer or some horrendous action, its a dude who maybe cheated at a card game.... People need to chill, its not the crime of the century.....)
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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March 26th, 2021 at 5:30:58 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

II guess people who believe in "innocent until proven guilty" have what is coming to them?



Innocent until proven guilty is a standard associated with imprisioning someone -taking away their freedom by locking them in a jail cell. The standard of proof for such a penalty is understandably high.

BUT, no where else in life does "Innocent until proven guilty" apply. If Postle had had some merchandise endorsements, he would have been have been dropped and shunned by all his sponsors - they absolutely do not need iron-clad proof of his guilt to drop him like a turd.

And citing that "Postle has stated he was not cheating" is meaningless.

O.J. Simpson still claims that he did not kill his wife. Jerry Sandusky still claims that he did not sodomize those 11 young boys in the Penn State athletic facilities.. Rick Pitino states that he knew nothing about those prostitutes that were hired by his assistants and brought into the Louisville athletic dorm for parties for his players. And Pitino states he knew nothing about those illegal cash payments to his players by his staff.

Seven years later, former Baylor football coach Art Briles still states that he knew nothing about the 56 allegations of rape made by women against his players (some of them gang rapes in the athletic dorm).

Just because we can't discover enough evidence to imprison Simpson, Pitino, Briles and Postle doesn't mean that we believe their denials. There is something called "personal judgment" and we are allowed to exercise it when we see circumstantial evidence that is compelling and overwhelming. We can shun people who have done despicable things.


Sports of all types have a "Cover-up and deny" culture when it comes to cheating and bad personal behavior. The credo is: "Never leave written or video evidence and always Deny Deny Deny" Given that kind of culture what is your expectation? Courts find that people almost always deny their guilt in public statements - and so they give Zero weight to such denials. Zero point zero weight. What do you expect Postle to do? Subject himself to criminal prosecution and ruinous lawsuits by publicly stating: "Yes, I cheated!" History has shown that when you stick a microphone in front of someone that everyone - the innocent and the guilty - will DENY, DENY, DENY. There is literally no incentive to do otherwise.

So, why would any observer give weight to the fact that Postle states he didn't cheat?? Those claims mean nothing. He will say that with 100% certainty whether he is innocent or guilty. Gandler, can't you understand that?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Gandler
Gandler
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March 26th, 2021 at 6:07:01 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Innocent until proven guilty is a standard associated with imprisioning someone -taking away their freedom by locking them in a jail cell. The standard of proof for such a penalty is understandably high.

BUT, no where else in life does "Innocent until proven guilty" apply. If Postle had had some merchandise endorsements, he would have been have been dropped and shunned by all his sponsors - they absolutely do not need iron-clad proof of his guilt to drop him like a turd.

And citing that "Postle has stated he was not cheating" is meaningless.

O.J. Simpson still claims that he did not kill his wife. Jerry Sandusky still claims that he did not sodomize those 11 young boys in the Penn State athletic facilities.. Rick Pitino states that he knew nothing about those prostitutes that were hired by his assistants and brought into the Louisville athletic dorm for parties for his players. And Pitino states he knew nothing about those illegal cash payments to his players by his staff.

Seven years later, former Baylor football coach Art Briles still states that he knew nothing about the 56 allegations of rape made by women against his players (some of them gang rapes in the athletic dorm).

Just because we can't discover enough evidence to imprison Simpson, Pitino, Briles and Postle doesn't mean that we believe their denials. There is something called "personal judgment" and we are allowed to exercise it when we see circumstantial evidence that is compelling and overwhelming. We can shun people who have done despicable things.


Sports of all types have a "Cover-up and deny" culture when it comes to cheating and bad personal behavior. The credo is: "Never leave written or video evidence and always Deny Deny Deny" Given that kind of culture what is your expectation? Courts find that people almost always deny their guilt in public statements - and so they give Zero weight to such denials. Zero point zero weight. What do you expect Postle to do? Subject himself to criminal prosecution and ruinous lawsuits by publicly stating: "Yes, I cheated!" History has shown that when you stick a microphone in front of someone that everyone - the innocent and the guilty - will DENY, DENY, DENY. There is literally no incentive to do otherwise.

So, why would any observer give weight to the fact that Postle states he didn't cheat?? Those claims mean nothing. He will say that with 100% certainty whether he is innocent or guilty. Gandler, can't you understand that?



I actually agree with most of your points. We all have a right to personal judgment (and I actually still never voted in the original poll, so whoever some time ago speculated that I was one of the ones who voted "Poker God", is not accurate, I know that was not you, just throwing it in my reply). I am not familiar well enough with all of those cases, but generally, yes that is a fair point.

However, some things do matter. If somebody admits to a crime, they are usually guilty, so his maintaining his own innocence while encouraging investigators to prove his innocence does have some bearing (and yes I am aware this is exactly what OJ did, the irony is not lost on me, though the alleged crimes are not even remotely close).

You are certainly right that many sports sadly do have a cover and deny culture. And, you are not going to hear a defense from me.
However, and I am by no means an expert, this does not seem to be the case with poker. If you cheat and get caught nobody will defend you (and nor should they). I do not think there is a culture in poker to cover for cheaters (if anything the opposite, again my non-expert opinion based on observations).

However, personal admissions were not my primary point (though I don't think its irrelevant, as certain types of serial criminals happily admit their crimes). There are endless questions that do not make sense to me. Why would a casino plan it in this way (if you are of the camp that this was planned by the casino)? If he was playing on his own and somehow hacked into the stream data, why would he cheat routinely instead of just very occasionally where it could be caulked up to dumb luck? If his main goal in life was to cheat at Poker why not find an easier and less visible (publicly) way such as collusion or a crooked Native casino, etc... ? It seems like he picked about the dumbest way to cheat and the dumbest way to do it. And, if it was organized by the casino upper-management that point is compounded.....

I am not a poker expert, in fact I will have freely said that I am trash at poker (certainly compared to the members here), and that is fine, to me its a game that I expect to generally lose at, but have fun. Back when this was still new I watched a lot of videos on it (many by Dough Polk whom I enjoy on a variety of topics), and to me I never saw anything that was over the top. Some odd plays perhaps for a professional, but I am sure if you filmed dozens of hours of me playing poker you would find endless awkward calls and folds that turned out to be good by luck, but were "wrong" in the play sense and somebody could say, "Look Gandler did not re-raise the nutflush on a single paired board, he just called, he must be cheating" etc.... (I just say this because this was one example I remember from one of the "cheating exposes" videos, and I know I have done it before, though I think Postle was against a straight flush not a full house, either way does not matter same premise). I guess my point is, if every time you play poker is recorded (especially as a nonpro), I am sure there are countless hours of making "suspect" plays that by sheer luck turn out to be right, and if hundreds of hours are edited down into just a short video of a few hands it can very easily be made to look like those hands are the norm. I don't know if I said that in a way that makes sense. But, I guess my even more overall point was, he was knowingly playing in a format where he knew he was being recorded, if he was cheating it was pretty bold, and if it was orchestrated by higher powers (casino managers) even more so.
unJon
unJon
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March 26th, 2021 at 6:25:18 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

No, not if the casino was orchestrating it. Casinos can very easily place RFIDs in any chips or cards without anyone knowing. If the top level of the casino was planning this (which lets be honest is kind of far fetched that they would risk so much for so little gain....), they could easily insert such decks into any game Postle was playing and relay the information to his phone (or his hat device, or just que him via secret shock devices , or whatever others are claiming....). In fact this would be very easy for a casino and very few people would know. I find it very hard to believe that upper level management would plan this all out and put him into a live streamed game....

If a casino wanted to collude with Postle to cheat players for some reason there are probably endless better ways to accomplish this that have far less exposure (probably even far more than I realize).... The only reason we know about Postle is because people took the time to watch the countless hours of play and determine he won more than he should and makes some odd plays, if none of this was recorded (publicly) nobody would ever know...

This is one of the main reasons that I am skeptical on the casino orchestration claims, it just seems too blatant. I am sure if a casino for some motive (which is another issue, why would a casino risk so much on such little gain comparatively and so much potential negative backlash) wanted to back a cheater I am sure there are endless "better" ways.




Fair enough, but the overall principle is the same.
Generally in any field the person making the assertion has the burden to prove their assertion.

But, my primary issue with that poster is he seems to wish bad things on people who don't agree with him or choose to remain skeptical (which does not mean that I think he is innocent, just that I am not convinced of his guilt, certainly not with the fervor expressed by many on here, with many posts about what they want to do to Postle getting quite out of line.... for something that even if 100% of the allegations turn out to be 100% true, is just some dude cheating at mid stakes poker.... This is not a serial killer or some horrendous action, its a dude who maybe cheated at a card game.... People need to chill, its not the crime of the century.....)



It would take a lot of people to be in on it to run an RFID game when none was supposed to be running. I have not heard anyone express that broad of a conspiracy. I have heard people say that one casinos employee was in on it. So I would call your argument a straw man.

I would also say that my understanding is that RFID cards are different than the regular cards. So the players would want to know why they are playing a non streaming game with RFID cards.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
unJon
unJon
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March 26th, 2021 at 6:50:36 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler



Fair enough, but the overall principle is the same.
Generally in any field the person making the assertion has the burden to prove their assertion.



Coming back just to this point. I disagree with it. In science you make a hypothesis and you test it. And maybe you find enough evidence to accept it. Or maybe you find enough evidence to disprove it. But most of the time, you don’t find enough evidence to either accept or reject it. You are missing this third category in your analysis.

My default is not that Postle is not a cheater unless proven otherwise.

My default is “I have no idea if Postle is a cheater or not, so let’s look at the evidence.”

For me, I saw enough to conclude that Postle cheated.

For you, you did not see enough to conclude he cheated. Fine. But I would argue that you also did not see enough to conclude he didn’t cheat. So instead of going around thinking he’s not a cheater, I think you should keep an open mind that maybe he did.

Unless, you are on a jury. In which case, if you didn’t think there is enough evidence, you should vote “not guilty.”

But “not guilty” doesn’t mean you believe he’s “innocent.”
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
WTflush
WTflush
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March 26th, 2021 at 7:11:13 PM permalink
You also have to place rfid cards in a very specific place on the table laying flat next to each other so it would be pretty hard to run an rfid cheating scam.

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