Some Live Game Questions

I have only played in 1 tournament about 10 years ago at the Orleans. I normally just stick to other table games. Heading back to Vegas in a few weeks and I may sit down at a few tables.

I know the bankroll questions depend a lot on how I play. I'm more curious to know how bad the swings are.

Everything is referring to Hold'em as I've played very little of anything else.

1) Bankroll. Say on a 3/6 Limit game. What should I normally be sitting down with? Does it even matter in a limit game?

2) Bankroll on a 1/2 NL game. Is there actually any casino in Vegas that doesn't put a max buy in on these games? If so, any suggestions on what I should start out with?

3) Can I buy in a second time if I lose it all without having to go through a waiting list again?

4) There are times where I just have ~30-45 minutes before meeting someone. I have no issues going to a BJ table to kill a little time. Would it be odd to go to a table and then leave after 30 minutes?

5) Anyone know of a current list of tournaments? The most updated list I've found is from early 2008.

6) Every tournament I see has an admin fee and then they say they return 73% or 84% or whatever. If I pay $50 entry and $15 admin with a 80% fee return, how much is actually going into the pot?



And last thing just looking for some suggestions on where to play. I would prefer on the strip just so I can walk there, but not opposed to getting a cab if there is a good reason.


2/4(or 3/6) Limit
1/2 NL
2/4(or 2/5) NL
Tournament - Prefer something under $60 total, but anything up to $100 really works. I would prefer one that is lasting no more than 2-2.5 hours. If those simply don't exist then just ignore the time limit. I just tend to get bored at around the 3 hour mark.


Thanks

1) 3/6 limit, you'll probably find you don't need more than 100 on the table. If you want to be able to camp out for along session, I'd have another 100 in your pocket in case you run bad. If you lose more than 25 BB in a session (6*25 = 150), you should probably take a break and clear your head, because you either aren't playing well or won't be playing well after losing that much. I'm not talking about the 150 bucks, but the tilt from losing that many bets.

For a lifetime bankroll, they say you need 100x at a minimum to keep your game going. You should have at least $600 in an entertainment budget ready to go. Lose some of it, and drop limits or you risk losing your poker stake completely.

2) $100 max for all the 1/2 NL games I've seen. If you can afford it, you should usually buy in for the max. I can't imagine a NL game without a max, it's not really fair at the lower level. You need ammo to play properly, but you also want everyone on equal footing.

I am not a fan of short-buying. There are the occasional players who buy in for $40, and go all-in whenever they want to play. That's lame.

3) Yes. Pull out your money, and tell the dealer you want to rebuy. They will either give you chips right there, or run you some chips from the cage. You don't need to budge.

4) It's a little odd, but it happens. No one will say anything. If they do, you can safely ignore them. Or make up an excuse. Don't worry about it

Cash game bankrolls:

At a limit table, there is no maximum. At no limit there is. Both have minimums. Typically, a $1/$2 will have a minimum of $60 and a max of $300, but check first.

You can reload at any time. No need to drop to zero before reloading. However, if you are below the table minimum, and you decide reload, you must get to at least the minimum. You do NOT have to reload if you fall below the minimum. Obviously, if you reload, your new total cannot exceed the maximum.

You are not allows to remove chips for any reason, except tips and convenience purchases. I.E. If the poker room has a food waitress, or massage service, you CAN pay with chips.

If you leave a table, you are not allowed to return with fewer chips unless a minimum time has passed, usually 30 minutes.



Duration:

You can sit down and leave after one hand if you want. While that may seem wierd, there's no rule about it.



Tournaments:

I don't recall seeing any tournament that specified a return as a percentage. Typically, the buy in is specified as $x/$y or $x/$y/$z. The first number goes to the prize pool, the second goes to the house / admin, the third goes to the dealers. If they don't specify the third number, ask. Sometimes they take a small percentage off the prize pool for that, sometimes tips are voluntary.

The host can tell you how long they usually last. Typically, the cheaper the buy-in the fewer the players, and the shorter the blind levels, and less time till it's over. If the buy-in is less than $60, it probably lasts about two hours.

There are plenty that cost less than $60. If I recall correctly, Bills, O'Sheas, Flamingo and Imperial Palace all have under $60 tournaments.



Schedules:

You're best off checking with the casino's web site.

When in town, usually the poker host can give you a schedule not just for that casino, but for their sister casinos too.

Also:

You cannot add to your chipstack during a hand. If you want to reload, do it before the dealer starts dealing, or announce it during the deal - before you look at your cards. Otherwise, you could find yourself in a short-stack situation, unable to bluff.

Of course, sometimes a short stack is a good thing since you can cheaply call a huge bet.

Some casinos allow cash to play - but usually, only hundreds. In such a casino, the cash, like the chips, must remain on the table once it has become part of your working stack.

Thanks for all the info.

Looks like I was just misunderstanding the costs when I was looking at a few sites. When they broke it up, I just assumed I was paying a $100 entry fee, and then a $20 admin fee for a total of $120 to play. Which made a 80% return an odd number to me.



One more question.

A few sites I've seen suggest going up to the cage and getting your chips before you sit down so you don't have to go through the dealer at the table. Then a few others have said don't bother and then others don't even mention it. If it matters I wouldn't be putting down a massive amount unless I actually felt like doing a higher NL game. $200-$300 would be my best guess.

Should I go get my chips assuming there is actually a cage there I can go to? I'm assuming I can do it either way, I'm just curious what is more common.

I forgot about that.


Yeah, most poker rooms want you to get your initial buy-in at the cage. Since the casino only makes money off the rake, they want as many hands per hour as possible. So, certain things are discouraged since they cause a delay. Similarly, when you're done, nost poker rooms will not let you color-up. Just take them all to the cage.

Nearly all poker rooms have a cage either in the room or very close. In many cases, the nearest cage is closer than the nearest rest room.


Re-buys are allowed at the table. They are the exception, but for a couple good reasons:

1. Most people, knowing the rules, will get their initial buy-in before their seat becomes available.
2. If you get up to re-buy, there is the chance that you'll reconsider, and simply not return. The result is a seat that is reserved for you that you don't need, while players are waiting to sit.
3. More people in a hand means a bigger pot, which means that the max rake is more likely to happen. Therefore, encourage people to stay seated.
4. Other players prefer that a bad player stay at the table. This is especially true of a player that just busted out.

These last two reasons are why so many poker rooms offer waitress service.


Vegas does do one thing differently that I love. When a new table opens, the dealer and floorperson come to the table with several racks of chips, and the players buy in right there, before the game starts. That too is a time saver, since the typical player will only get their chips in advance if they are at the top of the wait list. This way, no sudden long line at the cage, where they triple-check every transaction. At the table, with a floor person watching, it goes very quickly.


A few wierd casinos (actually, Sands PA is the only one I know of) do NOT allow re-buys at the table. Nor does cash play. They WILL assist you by having a floor person take your cash to the cage for you. When I go there, I typically get $250 at the cage. $150 in red & white, plus $100 in green - which stays in my pocket in case I need to reload.

I play frequently in Washington state poker rooms, and have played poker in Vegas on four different trips. I'm primarily a low limit player. Here's my experience:

1) For a $3/$6 limit game, it's rare to see anyone buy in for more than $100. Because it's a limit game, capped at four bets, the absolute worst loss you can have is $12 before the flop, $12 after the flop, $24 after the turn, and $24 after the river. That's a max loss of $72. Having more than $72 at the start of a hand doesn't help you at all, and you can pretty much rebuy whenever you want.

2) For a $1/$2 no-limit game, it's best to buy in for the max so that you don't leave money on the table when you're holding the nuts and some sucker (probably me) calls your all-in on the river.

3) I've never seen anywhere that won't let you re-buy immediately from your chair, regardless of how many people are on the waiting list. Even if you have to get up to go to the ATM to get more cash, they'll generally hold your seat for two full orbits before giving your seat to someone else.

4) Playing for 30 minutes would be a little odd, and you might end up being on the waiting list for some or all of that time. But I don't think anyone would look down on you unless they perceived you as doing a hit-and-run, playing until you win a pot and then leaving immediately afterward without giving other players a chance to win it back from you. Even in that case, though, you're completely within the rules to do so.

5) http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/tournamentsbycardroom is supposedly kept up to date. I've never found a good comprehensive list, though.

6) DJTeddybear is right: "Typically, the buy in is specified as $x/$y or $x/$y/$z. The first number goes to the prize pool, the second goes to the house / admin, the third goes to the dealers." I've also seen it as something like "$50+$5", meaning you pay $55, of which $50 goes to the prize pool and $5 goes to the house. Also, be aware if it's a rebuy tournament or not, and whether you get more starting chips by paying an extra fee to the dealer tip pool. Usually, once the players are in the money, they'll agree to tip the dealers a certain percentage of the prize pool if there's not already a dealer fee taken out.

7) My experience in buying chips is the opposite of DJTeddybear. I've always bought my chips from the table or the brush, and in most cases, the brush will cash them back in for you. The only exception to this was in the Los Angeles area casinos, where you buy chips from chip-runners roaming the room, and cash them in at the poker room cage.

As for which rooms to play at, I like the reviews and sortable database at http://www.allvegaspoker.com/category_rankings.php . Generally, the nicest rooms have the best players and are the least profitable. The weaker rooms attract the casual "hey, I've seen this on TV" player, which makes it more profitable. On my next visit in January, I plan to play for quite some time at the Excalibur, because the room is right on the casino floor, nestled among the slots, attracting players who otherwise wouldn't play. I also should play the almost-outdoor games at O'Shea's and Bills. I've come out ahead at Sahara, TI, Planet Ho, but lost my buy-in at Wynn and Bellagio.

That said, Bellagio, Wynn, and Venetian have classy rooms, and you really should play there just for the experience. Their low limit games were $4/$8 last time I checked.

MGM's poker room, while it may not be the most profitable, is probably my favorite. I love the marble chip rails, the electronic check-in process, the fast dealers, the lack of distracting TVs, the proximity to the bad players on the casino floor and the thumping-beat nightclub, and the fact that they DON'T have bad beat jackpots, which frequently cause players to make unexpected decisions.

Quote: soulhunt79

1) Bankroll. Say on a 3/6 Limit game. What should I normally be sitting down with? Does it even matter in a limit game?
2) Bankroll on a 1/2 NL game. Is there actually any casino in Vegas that doesn't put a max buy in on these games? If so, any suggestions on what I should start out with?
3) Can I buy in a second time if I lose it all without having to go through a waiting list again?
4) There are times where I just have ~30-45 minutes before meeting someone. I have no issues going to a BJ table to kill a little time. Would it be odd to go to a table and then leave after 30 minutes?
5) Anyone know of a current list of tournaments? The most updated list I've found is from early 2008.
6) Every tournament I see has an admin fee and then they say they return 73% or 84% or whatever. If I pay $50 entry and $15 admin with a 80% fee return, how much is actually going into the pot?
And last thing just looking for some suggestions on where to play. I would prefer on the strip just so I can walk there, but not opposed to getting a cab if there is a good reason.
2/4(or 3/6) Limit
1/2 NL
2/4(or 2/5) NL
Tournament - Prefer something under $60 total, but anything up to $100 really works. I would prefer one that is lasting no more than 2-2.5 hours. If those simply don't exist then just ignore the time limit. I just tend to get bored at around the 3 hour mark.
Thanks

1) You want to have enough in front of you to play a hand all the way through no matter what, which in a 3/6 limit game, would be $72 if the betting is capped at the initial bet + three raises, and $90 if four raises are allowed. Most players buy in for $100, but you can buy in for any amount you want, with the minimum usually being ten small blinds ($30).
2) Max buyins for 1-2 vary from $100 to $300. 2-5 games are usually $200-$500. One place that has no maximum buyin rule is the Wynn.
3) You can rebuy at any time, to replenish your stack up to the maximum buyin (so if the max was $300, and you had $75 in front of you, you could top up with $225 additional). And if you go completely busted, you can rebuy immediately, just as when you first sat down--and you can do that over and over. You can also hold your seat while you go to get more money, usually for about 20-30 minutes.
4) No one would care if you sat down and played even just one hand, and you're allowed to sit and play for as long or as short a period as you wish.
5) The Poker Player newsletter, which you can find in most cardrooms, has a continually updated list of daily/weekly tournaments.
6) If there is an "admin fee", then that is the amount that is going to the house. So for example, a $60 entry fee with a $15 admin fee would mean the house is returning 80% of all monies collected.

As far as where to play, the Venetian is the nicest cardroom by far, IMHO. I would NOT play at a Harrah's property, because they rake $5 from the pot, and everyone else rakes only $4 (and that makes a HUGE difference). For small buyin tournaments, the Orleans is a very good place to play--they have two per day. On the Strip, you might try the Luxor or Excalibur, for low buyins and weak opposition.

4) There are times where I just have ~30-45 minutes before meeting someone. I have no issues going to a BJ table to kill a little time. Would it be odd to go to a table and then leave after 30 minutes?

In England, we are big on etiquette. So while you can sit down and play for as long as you want, it is considered to call you last 3 hands before you leave the table. Especially if you have been winning. You are not obliged to play any hand, and could sit and fold every time but it keeps most players placated.

deleted

Quote: travisl

1) For a $3/$6 limit game, it's rare to see anyone buy in for more than $100. Because it's a limit game, capped at four bets, the absolute worst loss you can have is $12 before the flop, $12 after the flop, $24 after the turn, and $24 after the river. That's a max loss of $72. Having more than $72 at the start of a hand doesn't help you at all, and you can pretty much rebuy whenever you want.

I've been in poker rooms that remove the cap on limit games when it gets heads-up. They still limit the bet size, but the two players can keep reraising until one is all-in.

Quote: travisl

2) For a $1/$2 no-limit game, it's best to buy in for the max so that you don't leave money on the table when you're holding the nuts and some sucker (probably me) calls your all-in on the river.

Having a short stack can also be advantageous. You don't often have the nuts. But sometimes you're up against a huge raise where, if you had the chips, you'd end up folding. If you have very few chips, you might be the only player to call. I was recently in a hand where a player raised to $10 pre-flop. six people called. After the flop, he went all in for about $200. All I had was $13, a weak pair and high hopes. I was the only one to call. So he took back all but $13, and had to show his bluff. My weak pair held up. I'm sure someone else would have beaten me if they had called. If I had much more than $13, I would have folded too.

Quote: travisl

7) My experience in buying chips is the opposite of DJTeddybear. I've always bought my chips from the table or the brush, and in most cases, the brush will cash them back in for you. The only exception to this was in the Los Angeles area casinos, where you buy chips from chip-runners roaming the room, and cash them in at the poker room cage.

What's a "brush"?

Quote: travisl

I also should play the almost-outdoor games at O'Shea's...

O'Sheas actually advertises "Strip Poker" because their tables extend into the doorway, onto the sidewalk next to the Strip. I don't like those tables, becuase it's hard to hear.

Well I'm most likely going up and getting my own chips. I prefer this anyway, I just wanted to make sure this wasn't rare and 99% of players just got chips after sitting down at the table.



I am curious though how the whole process of getting your chips works though. In a craps game I have no issues giving the dealer $500 because it never leaves the table and the chips are right in front of a dealer. Just seems odd that I would be giving some random employee in the poker room $500 to go get chips for me. I certainly wouldn't trust a blackjack dealer to take my money and then come back with $500 in chips a few minutes later.

Maybe it doesn't work like this, but I'm imagining someone working in the room coming up to me as I sit down asking if I want chips. I give them $300 and they come back with chips. Who says the person I gave the money to is even a casino employee?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

In most places if it is heads up at the beginning or a round, there is unlimited betting.

Thanks for the reminder. I'd forgotten about this, only having seen it only once, at T.I., after I was already out of the hand. Up here in Washington state, even if it's heads up, it's capped at four bets.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: travisl

7) My experience in buying chips is the opposite of DJTeddybear. I've always bought my chips from the table or the brush, and in most cases, the brush will cash them back in for you...

What's a "brush"?

One source gives this definition: "A casino employee whose job it is to greet players entering the poker room, maintain the list of persons waiting to play, announce open seats, and various other duties (including brushing off tables to prepare them for new games, hence the name)."

I've played in tiny podunk card rooms where there might be one person who's the dealer and one person who's the brush/floorman, and they switch off. In medium sized rooms, the dealers rotate, and the brush maintains the wait list and sells the chips. And in bigger rooms, the brush will show you to your table, take your money, and return with the chips. Often, the floorman, who resolves disputes ("floor!"), is the same as the brush, but not always.

My memory may be foggy, but I've played at the following Vegas rooms, and gotten my chips as noted:

TI, Planet Ho, Bellagio: the brush at the counter
Imperial Palace, Sahara: from the dealer's tray, or maybe the dealer just yelled over to the counter
Excalibur, Binions, Bally's, MGM: the brush, who came to the table
Wynn: I don't remember :-(

Quote: soulhunt79

Just seems odd that I would be giving some random employee in the poker room $500 to go get chips for me....

The one casino where I saw it, you put the cash on the table, just like when you buy in at any other table. The dealer and the runner count it, then the dealer gives you numbered buttons in the amount of the buy in. These buttons are the same type of engraved plastic things as a missed blind button. These buttons DO NOT PLAY. They just act as an I.O.U.

When the runner returns with the chips, they are counted out and you give the buttons to the dealer.

Usually, the runner is a dealer that is not at a table, or a floor person. It's NOT someone like a waitress.

What's a "brush?"

...

I never heard that term before. I would simply call them a host. Thanks for the explanation.


Now that you mention it, yeah, a lot of Vegas poker rooms DON'T have a cage. You buy in and cash out at the counter/brush/host.

I've always thought that was the most unsecure way to do it, but, it is Vegas, where the rules are rather loose....

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Not necessarily. In most places if it is heads up at the beginning or a round, there is unlimited betting so you could lose more than $72 in a hand. This happened to me long ago with a second nut full house and lost to the nut full house. We raised back and forth untill he was all in which was more than 4 raises.

I didn't bother to mention that exception because if the hand is heads up, neither player will be obligated to do more than call the other player's bets to remain in the hand, therefore the $72 maximum needed still applies.