Playing for free on PokerStars.com... a decent test of skill or a waste of time?

PokerStars.com now charges a very small amount to buy play-money chips. They've been doing it for a couple of years now. I'm not sure how much they charge, I guess about a penny per $10 play money. I've played for many years now, almost every day for a couple of hours at least. I have always kept a positive balance. I always play the 45 player, $20,000 play money buy-in tournaments. I cash at the final table a LOT! Right now my balance is > 7 million.

The players, for the most part are conservative and patient, although there are some donkeys, primarily from Brazil. Each 45 player tourney usually lasts a couple of hours or so. My point is that they play it very realistically, in my opinion. If this were real money, I could have gone pro by now.

Does that make me a decent "real" player, or is play-money no indication of real life action?

Practice money is always a good way to get a feel for the real world game. But I did see disclaimer on a free gambling practice website. Something like, "This free gambling practice website pays out better than real world gambling. We are not legally liable if players on this free website use it as a guide for real world gambling and lose their wagers." LMAO! :D

Quote: discflicker

PokerStars.com now charges a very small amount to buy play-money chips. They've been doing it for a couple of years now. I'm not sure how much they charge, I guess about a penny per $10 play money. I've played for many years now, almost every day for a couple of hours at least. I have always kept a positive balance. I always play the 45 player, $20,000 play money buy-in tournaments. I cash at the final table a LOT! Right now my balance is > 7 million.

The players, for the most part are conservative and patient, although there are some donkeys, primarily from Brazil. Each 45 player tourney usually lasts a couple of hours or so. My point is that they play it very realistically, in my opinion. If this were real money, I could have gone pro by now.

Does that make me a decent "real" player, or is play-money no indication of real life action?

No it does not make you a decent "real" player. Having played a lot of $$ games prior to Black Friday, I can tell you that play money is nothing like the real money games.

It gets more realistic the farther you get in the tournament. In the first few hands, people routinely go all in with garbage. By the time you get to the cut line, people play conservatively to finish in the "money." However, it's still play money, and you get plays from people that make no sense, or they're just being asses. You can usually know who the a-holes are by their chat comments.

I would say that it doesn't simulate real conditions, but it does help you think about what kind of play to consider, and to think through the hands—which is good practice for real money play.

Quote: Nathan

Practice money is always a good way to get a feel for the real world game. But I did see disclaimer on a free gambling practice website. Something like, "This free gambling practice website pays out better than real world gambling. We are not legally liable if players on this free website use it as a guide for real world gambling and lose their wagers." LMAO! :D

Was that for the game of poker? I can see the value of letting the player win in free play... it entices them to play for real money. But still, unless one or more, maybe all of the players are house robots, the game of poker is between players, and the house only collects rakes. For tournaments, they collect the entry fees, so in that case, it is beneficial to end the tournament as soon as possible.

In on-line casino tournaments, this can be accomplished with fast or hyper-speed play clocks, which is what I'm usually playing... a 10 second clock with a 10 second warning.

Indeed, sometimes I think the hands are rigged for excitement and to entice hot action... I see a LOT of aces, way more than the live games I play downtown in Detroit, at least it seems that way. If they have algorithms to rig the decks like this, it might minimize the cycle time for tournaments, and I can see how that is more profitable for them. It might also minimize the cycle time for sit-down play as well... everyone bets aggressively, guaranteeing fat pots and the collection of full antes.

So maybe the practice-money poker games are a means for them to research the optimal algorithms for deck-rigging.

And maybe that is why I win a lot... I have learned to play a certain way, and it changes as the tourney progresses... at first I am fairly aggressive and try to build up my bankroll right away... this is where the prevalence of aces seems to kick things off right away. In the later stages, I am super-conservative, only playing the hands that I'm willing to go all-in on. I very often fold qq, ak at the final table, in order to preserve my rank vs. trying to increase my bankroll. When it gets down to 4 players (where I've already cashed), I again become extremely aggressive, playing ak aq, 10-10 all-in... at that point, its like I'm depending on big hands to boost my rank, until it gets down to 1 on 1.

So, my long-winded point is, IF THE HANDS ARE RIGGED TO MINIMIZE TOURNAMENT CYCLE-TIME, THEN MAYBE I'M NOT AS GOOD AS I THINK I AM, BECAUSE I'VE ONLY LEARNED HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THESE RIGGED-HANDED TOURNEYS.

Quote: rsactuary

No it does not make you a decent "real" player. Having played a lot of $$ games prior to Black Friday, I can tell you that play money is nothing like the real money games.

OK, I appreciate that input.

Quote: smoothgrh

It gets more realistic the farther you get in the tournament. In the first few hands, people routinely go all in with garbage. By the time you get to the cut line, people play conservatively to finish in the "money." However, it's still play money, and you get plays from people that make no sense, or they're just being asses. You can usually know who the a-holes are by their chat comments.

I would say that it doesn't simulate real conditions, but it does help you think about what kind of play to consider, and to think through the hands—which is good practice for real money play.

Yes, I totally agree. WHAT ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF THE HANDS BEING "RIGGED FOR SPEED"?

whats stopping you from trying real money then? a few dollars a day is not gonna hurt even if you blow it.

Quote: andysif

whats stopping you from trying real money then? a few dollars a day is not gonna hurt even if you blow it.

If he's in the US, PokerStars doesn't allow him to play real money.

As to the OP question, I have won quite a few tournaments there. I usually play 50k nl Omaha hi/lo, horse, or other stuff than THE.

I'm convinced some hands are rigged, sometimes in my favor. Like I have junk in good position, people limp, i stick for the low, and flop 4 to a sf, so I stick around, and it fills. Much more often than I should expect, I get these really low percentage hands.

I do play very tight-aggressive, which seems to work well on PS, most of the time. But like someone said above, lots of people play crazy loose, and I have to credit that to play money vs. real. I just wait them out, and almost always make the final table.

Quote: andysif

whats stopping you from trying real money then? a few dollars a day is not gonna hurt even if you blow it.

I'm a chicken-sh%t, cheap bast%rd. I can't play on-line for real cash from the USA anyway, right? I do play real cash games at the casino, but that's hit-and-run; $50 minimal buy-in. I do OK at it, because there are 3 casinos in Detroit, all close together and usually not to crowded, so I can jump around and play all night... I usually play until I lose twice in a row, or lose $100 for the day. I play each session until I have lost it all or I have at least $120, and I get up and leave whenever that happens... yup, a real grinder!

I don't even go downtown when my weekly accumulated losses exceed $250. That is very rare... I do well at this, and for a couple of years, I was running up stairs in-between each session... one day I ran up 400 flights over a dozen or so sessions! I got so I could run up > 100 flights in a row (12 at a time). The other players started calling me "hit and run", and they didn't appreciate my sweaty and often smelly presence. A couple of years ago I was hospitalized and required clots in my blood, so I had to quit running, and, so I don't do this as much any more.

Quote: beachbumbabs

...
I'm convinced some hands are rigged, sometimes in my favor. Like I have junk in good positi
...

I knew it! Ya think they do this to decrease cycle-time in tournaments and to assure bigger pots (for max ante) in sit-down play, like I suggested above? Now the important question... do you think they would do this in a real-money game?

Thanks for your input.

I really don't think the games are rigged. I think that with online poker, you just see vastly more hands that you could possibly see in hand-dealt poker games. So it just *seems* like aces are appearing more often.

I've played with play money on pokerstars/fulltilt for a long time, and when I'm all in with a "race" situation, it seems to have evened out. Half the time my pocket pair holds up and half the time the player with the high cards pair the board. And same thing when I'm the one trailing.

The visits to the casino are fun because you occasionally see some long-odds luck. I've been dealt a pocket pair and made quads only once in a casino (and won a high-hand bonus!), whereas online I've made quads so many times, it almost feels common.

Quote: discflicker

I knew it! Ya think they do this to decrease cycle-time in tournaments and to assure bigger pots (for max ante) in sit-down play, like I suggested above? Now the important question... do you think they would do this in a real-money game?

Thanks for your input.

I think they don't rig the real-money games, because they would be out of business fast if it ever came to light. Play money, why not let the users have fun, make interesting things happen.

However, I have ZERO experience playing on PS for real money, so JMHO.

The free play tables at any site is a waste of time. Most people just stuff all in and if you just fold until you have a made hand you'll have a large advantage. It's definitely NOT a good skills check, in my opinion. Hell, online poker in general isn't a good skills check at any snapshot really. I'd say the only good skills check is for average to okay stakes ($25 buy in up to $500 buy in) and to prove you can beat the game over time. Like any other game there's variance and one could run good or bad for a little while.

Your opponent plays differently using fake money, as do you, so no.

As a hobby, I occasionally play WSOP Circuit poker tournaments at moderate stakes ($250 - 400 buy-ins). Some of these events are loaded with professional players and I have made a point of trying to understand the moves that professionals tend to use against amateurs.

1. The number one move of professionals in either cash games or tournaments, is based on the fact that most amateurs 'play scared' when faced with a very large bet. Pros make actions like these:
- aggressively raising or re-raising your opening bet
- in tourneys, aggressive play when everyone is close to the money bubble
- making large post-flop and turn bets to drive you out

to take advantage of the risk-aversion of less experienced players.

And that is exactly what you cannot learn in social (non-cash) poker games on the internet - you cannot simulate the emotional reaction you will feel when you bet $10 and your opponent raises you to $80. When you pay $300 to enter a tournament and the guy on your left keeps re-raising you 3X every time you put chips in the pot.

2. Another thing you cannot simulate by playing poker on-line (or by watching it on TV) is the art of "reading your opponent" in live poker games and of masking your own "tells."

3. There are some logistical issues with live-action poker that don't exist on-line and take some experience
- keeping track of the pot size - which is necessary for bet sizing
- ability to estimate your opponent's stack
- visibility issues, i.e., when you sit next to the dealer, and cannot see the player who is sitting on the other side of the dealer
- dealing with (and exploiting) mental fatigue in long tournaments

Conclusions:

-They might rig the free on-line games
-Opponents play differently in free-play games
-Real live and for-money tournaments are different from free-play on-line play
-Doing well in free-play on-line does NOT make me a good tournament player

I found this thread interesting because of how I learned to play poker. I had actually learned Texas Hold’em when I was about 11 years old, but it was from age 16-18 that I really learned how to play the game. I played for play money on various sites (mostly pokerstars, but also partypoker, ultimate bet and absolute poker), wherever I could find freerolls that offered a small real money prize for top winners. My experience was this:

The play money ring games are a complete waste of time in terms of learning the game. If you find them entertaining then by all means log on and have some fun, but don’t expect to gain any real experience. The majority of players either shove all in every hand or call every hand, so there is no realism to it.

The tournaments, however, are a bit better. While you won’t typically run into great players (or ever good players), it seemed like most of the players were playing with an actual desire to win. Even though their strategies are basic, inconsistent, or downright bad, the fact that they really do want to end up as the winner creates a much more realistic environment than the ring games. Like someone else already said, the deeper you get into the multi-table tournaments the more realistic it becomes. I was able to begin to get a feel for things like: when should I use my chips for aggression and when should I sit back for a bit, how should I adjust my play as the blinds increase, etc. You WILL NOT BECOME A PRO by doing this, but I really do believe it helped me to get a feel for tournament poker without having to make any actual investment into the game. Eventually I turned 18 and it became legal for me to play with real money, and just after I turned 20 I won the Sunday Million tournament on pokerstars. So I have no regrets about all the time I spent playing freerolls to learn the game :)

One thing extra: while playing with free money I always had a couple real tables open (usually ring games). I payed very close attention to them, trying to figure out who won and who lost consistently (online poker was very new at the time, so the highest stakes ring games always had the same regular players. Btw at that time the biggest no-limit games were $3-6 blinds). Once I knew who were winners and losers I started to pay more attention to what cards they played and how they played them. Because you can open hand histories on any table you have open, whenever a hand went to showdown I could look at the history and see how the hand got played. For me this was a great opportunity to learn a bit of how to (and how not to!) play certain types of hands. I hope this helps!