Stations cancels Bad Beat jackpots

https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/22627-red-rock-casino-cancels-poker-bad-beat-after-scandal

After the disaster that has been the infamous Stations' Bad Beat issue, they have decided to cancel all Bad Beat jackpot promotions.

I don't see any info in the article as to how they will distribute the jackpot that has built since the disputed hand?

Eh, maybe some will prefer this since they will no longer drop $1 from every pot for it (or whatever it is). I feel like most ploppies love this though, so perhaps they'll take the sharks elsewhere with them, to a place that has the promotions most want.

I have called and spoken to four different Stations' Poker Room Representatives at four different Stations Casinos.

The first thing that I want to say is that all of the initial greeters at these four casinos were very polite, thanked me and wished me a good day, when transferring me to the poker room.

All five of the people I talked to in the poker rooms were also very polite and helpful.

THE RESULTS

Catherine-Supervisor, Boulder Station: Mark (title unknown) transferred me to Catherine. Catherine informed me that the Jumbo Hold 'Em Progressive Jackpot has been cancelled and was last hit about a month ago. She said it would not be continued and does not know what, if anything, will directly replace it. While polite, she seemed in a hurry, so I decided to try other places.

J.D.-Dealer, Red Rock: J.D. believed that the last time the Jumbo Hold 'Em Progressive Jackpot was hit was more like two months ago and that promotion will not be continued. J.D. informs me that $1 from every hand goes into a general fund that is then disseminated partially to the individual poker rooms for jackpot and promotional purposes, while some may be disseminated to the overall family of casinos, as this jackpot was. He said that the amounts are not necessarily pre-allocated (paraphrasing) and that they just kind of decide the promotions as they go along. J.D. states that, either way, any funds will be returned to players via one promotion or another.

Jamie-"Counter," Green Valley Ranch: An individual at Green Valley Ranch who just described his position as, "I work the counter and have for fifteen years," informed me that the Jumbo Hold 'Em Progressive Jackpot was hit 5-6 weeks ago and will not be done again. He echoed the sentiments of J.D. that all promotions are handled by way of a general fund that gets allocated between individual casinos or with some promotions that can include the whole casino group. He stated that all collected monies will always go towards one promotion or another.

Mike-Supervisor/Dealer/Counter, Palace Station: Mike was THE MOST helpful and informative, by far. He stated his title is all of those things and answered, "Yes," when I asked if he is a jack of all trades.

The first thing he did was confirm the thing in question was hit 1-2 months ago, "Somewhere between that, I think." The next thing he did was state that the dollar per pot (only if the pot is over $10) is collected and goes to various jackpots and promotions. While he stated that some of those are corporation wide, he did state that the majority are property level and ARE NOT even progressives to begin with.

He gave me examples such as, "High Hand of the Hour," "Royal Flush," and, "Deuces Full of Does."

The most illuminating example is that there is a promotion today during which anyone who flops a quad with a pair wired up will receive $500. He said those sorts of promotions are primarily what that $1 per pot of any pot over $10 goes to.

Thus, while the promotion in question is discontinued and last hit around a month or two ago, the monies that went towards the promotion just came from the overall fund that comes from the $1.

The earliest call was made at 12:18p.m. Vegas time. The latest was made at 12:36p.m. Vegas time. Calls listed in order in which they occurred.

Makes sense to me.

Many poker rooms are getting away from the Bad Beat Jackpot, in favor of high hand promos, for a variety of reasons.

Even under regular circumstances, when a Bad Beat hits, the table comes to a halt, sometimes for over an hour, while things get checked out.

Plus, give a player $100K, and maybe he'll take a couple grand and add it to his bankroll, or take it to the craps table or something, but the rest is going home to be used for other expenditures.

On the flip side, give a hundred guys $1K, and most or all of that money will stay in the poker room / casino.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Makes sense to me.

Many poker rooms are getting away from the Bad Beat Jackpot, in favor of high hand promos, for a variety of reasons.

Even under regular circumstances, when a Bad Beat hits, the table comes to a halt, sometimes for over an hour, while things get checked out.

Plus, give a player $100K, and maybe he'll take a couple grand and add it to his bankroll, or take it to the craps table or something, but the rest is going home to be used for other expenditures.

On the flip side, give a hundred guys $1K, and most or all of that money will stay in the poker room / casino.

Yes that is common sense. Not much advertisement value in lower values though. Ploppies don't care about odds, just possibilities. They don't come out of the woodwork when the power Ball is $20 MM.

I have never understood this situation at all.

Two very experienced and knowledgeable players were involved for major sums. Some procedural mistake was made but I've never heard a determination of whether it was reasonable or suggestive of some sort of collusion.

The article mentions that it was not going to have any impact.

so did Red Rock try to do something such as enforcing the rule that all poker players must wear neckties and be clean shaven. I would suspect the casino had improper motivation in such a situation. Was this a mere technical violation or did it have impact suggestive of collusion or impropriety?

I get the differences between "we are here to play poker" and "we are here to shove blinds around the table while we all wait for some exotic promotion to hit". Perhaps the nature of the exotic promotion is changing, but I don't see why.

Was it ever thought to have been rigged?
Was it a reasonable error or a suspicious error?

I'm surprised that this thread contains a lot higher quality information & effort and insights than the usual stuff that's common on a mostly non-poker casino degen's forum. I think it's nice, and refreshing.

Quote: FleaStiff

I have never understood this situation at all.

Correct. You don't, at all. Which is fine, truly & sincerely. Lots of people wouldn't, and shouldn't necessarily expect to. That was an excellent and unfortunately uncommon insight, and it would be even more uncommonly brilliant to go with that after having the awareness to recognize it. And it would be a thoroughly unrealistic pursuit to try to change that to any significant extent in some posts on a message board, and this would be just about the worst choice of one on the planet in which to try. There are several specialty poker forums much better equipped (and much larger) if one is determined to try, but this matter is not just about the cherry on top of some esoteric fine points. It involves a broad base of first truly understanding some basics fundamental to the game. And that's why I'm sure you mean well but don't understand that some of the rest of that post suggesting there must be some kind of devious intent involved was thoroughly ridiculous to the extent it was even relevant at all.

Which is also part of why it is really necessary for people sitting down at a live casino poker table to pay attention to the order of action and to watch & take direction by the dealer when they are in a hand, and whenever uncertain about it to stop the action and ask, including the floor when still in doubt. In this game, which is not house banked (so the casino has absolutely no financial stake in the outcome whatsoever - regardless of what some childish eternally paranoid congenitally resentful fools may be determined to believe) none of the staff of a poker room has any reason whatsoever to do anything other than work to safeguard the fairness of the game tor the players. It is not like a pit game. At all. People who are always operating in "casino is the enemy" gear should not go into poker rooms, for the good of all.

Quote: FleaStiff

Two very experienced and knowledgeable players...

No. They very clearly were and are not. At all. A simple mistake can and does happen to anyone. But that is not what this was. These two don't understand so just did what they felt, still don't want to, and the public record implies they're determined to not get it.

Being an "I know better" diouchebag in a poker room, pointlessly acting like a jackass to fulfill a desire for attention, and concocting your own rules in your fevered imagination without understanding or regard for how it affects others or even yourself is certainly not unheard of behavior at this kind of venue and stakes. And it is what most pokier players (the ones who have some kind of clue what the game is about) are paying the staff of the poker room to control for them. Without that, there will be players constantly disadvantaged (cheated) in the competition, by stuff that the dumbass causing it may not even understand. Like, oh say for example, acting out of turn in ways like exposing cards with action still pending in a multi-way hand, which always has a severely unfair differential effect among the other players.

In fact, you don't have to go up to Red Rock for some very ripe examples. Straight out of conceited jackass central right here, one of the first threads I ever saw on this forum was from a seemingly beloved but not at all bright member, since banned but never gone and apparently still loved by some, who with the emotional makeup of a rather disturbed & very spoiled eight year old child repeatedly insisted that some nearly universal and widely accepted practices in poker rooms which have long since become much appreciated & sought after by nearly all players (providing internet and wifi connectivity at the tables) was actually something he decided he "knew" was wrong and downright outrageous and must be stopped.

Because he never heard of such a thing, that individual didn't see why it should be that way, and he "knows" better and sure doesn't need to go along with it, and if he ever sees that then by golly he'll unleash a big loud violent tantrum during a hand to force everybody to stop & disrupt the game and maybe the whole room so nobody can continue. 'Cause nobody knows better and surely not no dirty rotten cheating people who run poker rooms for a living who allow and even encourage stuff that he's never heard of. And today is Wednesday. But that was four years ago, so maybe nobody at all like that exists anymore here or is ever in any poker rooms now... and maybe the moon is made of green cheese.

Quote: Mission146

...<SNIP>...

Catherine-Supervisor, Boulder Station: Mark (title unknown) transferred me to Catherine. Catherine informed me that the Jumbo Hold 'Em Progressive Jackpot has been cancelled and was last hit about a month ago. She said it would not be continued and does not know what, if anything, will directly replace it. While polite, she seemed in a hurry, so I decided to try other places.

...<SNIP>...

Don't be too hard on them for the rushed response (not that I thought you were). I haven't been in there in quite a while now, but there's no doubt Boulder is still one of the few rooms in town, especially within the Station chain, that really starts filling up that early on a weekday. So they were likely to be a lot more harried than most with starting multiple games & whatnot. BTW & FWIW, regardless of titles & protocol unless something has radically changed Mark really runs that room & has for years.

All the casinos up here in Reno drops $1 that goes towards their promotions, without having a bad beat jackpot, except for one, the Atlantis has a mini bad beat of $5k, not a progressive. The dollar goes towards high hands, spin the wheel if you get Aces crack, $100 high full house promo every hour, etc. Rather than giving all the money away to two players who could be from out of town, they try to spread the money around making the qualifier easier.

Quote: Vegasrider

All the casinos up here in Reno drops $1 that goes towards their promotions, without having a bad beat jackpot, except for one, the Atlantis has a mini bad beat of $5k, not a progressive. The dollar goes towards high hands, spin the wheel if you get Aces crack, $100 high full house promo every hour, etc. Rather than giving all the money away to two players who could be from out of town, they try to spread the money around making the qualifier easier.

I think that falls in line to what TeddyBear was saying. I don't play enough poker to notice it, but it sounds like a better idea than a monster, almost unhittable jackpot. Local players prefer easier to hit, lower payouts. Whether it's in tables, slots, or lottery.

Quote: DrawingDead

Don't be too hard on them for the rushed response (not that I thought you were). I haven't been in there in quite a while now, but there's no doubt Boulder is still one of the few rooms in town, especially within the Station chain, that really starts filling up that early on a weekday. So they were likely to be a lot more harried than most with starting multiple games & whatnot. BTW & FWIW, regardless of titles & protocol unless something has radically changed Mark really runs that room & has for years.

Thank you for sticking up for Boulder Station and pointing that out!

I just meant to say that she seemed busy, not that I had a problem with her being busy. If she's busy, she's busy. My point was only that I will call a different property who may not be busy because the conversation can be more casual, which will get me more detailed information.

I was in telemarketing for a couple years, both as a TSR and supervisor, so I basically go off of voice cues when it comes to stuff like that. Catherine was extremely polite and answered my questions in as quick a way as possible while still answering the question. Everything about the phone call was fine.

I mainly let her go out of courtesy. I'm sure she would have answered more specific questions had I asked them. I'm a couple thousand miles away, so I wanted to let her get on to more important things.

Quote: Vegasrider

...Rather than giving all the money away to two players who could be from out of town, they try to spread the money around making the qualifier easier.

On a poker discussion board specific to Las Vegas we had a long running discussion and general consensus that this approach you describe in Reno was sensible and beneficial to everybody, definitely including players, with reasoning much like what Teddy said. Even in Las Vegas, and even among the rooms in Strip resorts with heavy tourist business, enormous and relatively infrequent lottery jackpot style big bucks use of the promo fund is believed by many to be more likely to result in the money leaving the poker economy. And I agree. Of course you can't very well insist that somehow a five figure + windfall gets put in play where most players who pay into it and will never get any such whopper payout in their lives would have a shot at getting their share of promo bucks back.

And even when most players are not local, the hugemongous type payouts to a few random luckboxes are a lot more likely to become 4,847 lap dances in the Champagne Room at Cheetahs and a visit to the Ferrari dealer or showing off their (temporary & well-lubricated) high-roller studly-ness in front of a gaggle of hookers on their arm at a roulette wheel or some such. Which is a dead loss to poker people, rather than splashing it around among all the other players paying the promo drop like most common high-hand & similar frequent payout stuff does, even when it tops up the chip stack of people in funny hats in town for a convention for only a week. And I find that the people working in most poker rooms are usually most interested specifically in the well being of the poker business, including a genuine rooting interest in their players being as solvent and loose as possible. So when they have a say in it (and sometimes they don't) the poker staff folk including supervisors & room management people often prefer promos that don't have a lot of that promo drop suddenly walk out, even if it was going just a little ways to puke it to the house in the pit or on some other quick big ticket indulgences at the same property.

In other words, what he & he said.

Quote: Mission146

I just meant to say that she seemed busy, not that I had a problem with her being busy.

Understood, and I figured you most likely understood how the work flow in a customer driven environment like that can ebb and flow. Just thought it might be a useful tidbit of info that the timing of Boulder's poker business does tend to differ a bit from a lot of other rooms, including some in the same company.

Honestly I prefer playing in a room that doesn't have a $1 drop for a bad beat or any promotions for that matter. Pay the rake and tipping the dealer is all the chips needed to be removed from the table. That's why I primarily played at the Bellagio when I lived in Vegas, but have been known to play at other rooms like RR.

Yes, to me it's like being forced to buy a lottery ticket when you came to order lunch. But given who actually likes that crap and believes they are surely due to win it any moment now and how they tend to play with the chips in front of them on the felt, I get used to doing the following procedure: paste a smile on my face, and endure the background noise of painfully brain-dead promo-imbecile chatter by cranking up the volume on my headphones while nodding with a vapid idiot grin whenever promo-dunce babble is being yammered in my direction.

If I had my way I'd like to have the following splash-pot promo available for those who choose the option, say by posting a little red button in front of them. Then if I do that, and I will with a genuine grin, I won't be eligible for whatever the "double somersault with a twisty dismount on a purple unicorn in a cash volcano" promo of the month might be. But every pot I win will be splashed with a dollar chip. The one that would've been dropped in the promo box. While the pots are still fed by some "poker" promo people. Wheeeee, winner-winner!

I can dream.

In Calgary, Alberta you can opt out of the bad beat jackpot. They don’t take the $1 on pots you win. I personally hate any poker room promo which involves more rake/promo dollars coming off the table. The only good thing that they bring which I obviously like is the ploppies chasing the big cash pay out. Ploppies love a long shot.

Quote: PokerGrinder

In Calgary, Alberta you can opt out of the bad beat jackpot. They don’t take the $1 on pots you win. I personally hate any poker room promo which involves more rake/promo dollars coming off the table. The only good thing that they bring which I obviously like is the ploppies chasing the big cash pay out. Ploppies love a long shot.

That's an unintended consequence that I think a lot of people (not people on here) in general don't consider. They'll stay in hands longer, with less outs, just acting as a calling station for the almost non existent chance of a bad beat hand.

Quote: Vegasrider

Honestly I prefer playing in a room that doesn't have a $1 drop for a bad beat or any promotions for that matter. Pay the rake and tipping the dealer is all the chips needed to be removed from the table. That's why I primarily played at the Bellagio when I lived in Vegas, but have been known to play at other rooms like RR.

If that extra dollar bought you a supply of weaker players who are chasing the promotions, compared to no dollar and a field of more skilled players, would that make a difference?

Having played in a lot of different places, on the whole, places with more promotions tend to have looser games.