Wanting to be staked in WSOP

My friend is looking for an investor to stake him in the WSOP. He's searchable online on HendonMob. Nice, honest guy. Been playing a very long time.

Any and all leads and/or suggestions welcome.

Quote: HotBlonde

My friend is looking for an investor to stake him in the WSOP. He's searchable online on HendonMob. Nice, honest guy. Been playing a very long time.

Any and all leads and/or suggestions welcome.

There's a website where a lot of the pros sell a piece of their action for specific tournaments, sometimes offering percentages that can be purchased by multiple stakehorses, or they'll swap percentages of each other, or other ways of doing it. I'll see if I can find it, but I invite anybody who knows the site I'm talking about to post it.

Edit: this is the site I saw some of the top pros using last year to sell shares and draw backers. I have no personal knowledge of how reputable they are, but they seem to just put people together, not a paid service in either direction (like a headhunting firm)

https://www.chipmeup.com/forum

Thank you

If your friend doesn't have money to gamble he probably shouldn't be gambling.

A kid from HS solicits on facebook. Your friend should just pitch there and everywhere he goes. Usually in business, you're not supposed to rely on friends, but I think it's ok in such a case as poker. They believe in you and in turn, they can profit. It's not really that big of a risk if friends and family invest just a hundred or two each. They can always pass the next time.

Quote: sabre

If your friend doesn't have money to gamble he probably shouldn't be gambling.

It's not necessarily about that. Poker pros worth millions still look for backers.

Quote: Deucekies

It's not necessarily about that. Poker pros worth millions still look for backers.

To some degree, sure. I think very few are really worth millions (from poker at least) and those few don't have to look far for backers if and when they need them.

It's too bad hot blonde's friend isn't a hot blonde. They also have no problem finding backers.

99% of the time I think it has to be a terrible -EV deal to back someone.

Quote: AxelWolf

99% of the time I think it has to be a terrible -EV deal to back someone.

So you are saying there is a chance?

I'd like to know the percentage of the "big stars" actually pay their own way into tournaments instead of being 100% backed by online poker sites that they only share the profits with. My favorite moment was when Dragomir ripped into Hellmuth about that in the Main Event.

If you take a look at the investment community and start ups, even multi millionaires and successful businessmen find other investors to put money into their ventures. They typically have some of their own skin in the game though. I don't know how good of an investment it is to invest in a poker player for a tournament though... unless they truly believe in the player and they are comfortable losing their investment with the implied upside being huge. If you believe in your abilities and have the money, then no need for investors in poker.

If it's 1 to 1, I think it can be pretty good, especially in the wsop main event. Any good player should be +ev in those. Unless, of course, they are doing the producers scam.

But I think a lot of the players with some kind of notoriety will push for deals that are less favorable and often get them because it is fun, or sounds cool or whatever.

Just curious: when a poker player arranges for a backer, is the deal typically put in writing, or just a handshake?

Quote: MrV

Just curious: when a poker player arranges for a backer, is the deal typically put in writing, or just a handshake?

I imagine in certain circles, a handshake would suffice, although putting it in writing is always a good idea. If you get stiffed, you just spread the word. In the poker world, reputation is everything. If you are known as a stiff*, not only will you not get backers anymore, you might not even get a game anymore.

*Did we decide not to use the W word anymore? I don't remember.

What is the typical split that players and backers do in tournament play?

Quote: Deucekies

*Did we decide not to use the W word anymore? I don't remember.

You mean whacked or your car set on fire for not paying up? People with a life, including the money and smarts to gamble, don't want or need to gamble; people who gamble, however, will, with high +EV, have no life. Of course, you can't tell gamblers this, especially not the ones with the high +EV.

Quote: WatchMeWin

What is the typical split that players and backers do in tournament play?

Proportionate to the amount of the buy-in covered. If I give you $1,000 towards a $10,000 buy-in and you cash, I get my $1,000 back plus 10% of the profits.

In some cases, you might have a deal where first, you pay them back their stakes from previous tournaments where you didn't cash.

Quote: Rigondeaux

If it's 1 to 1, I think it can be pretty good, especially in the wsop main event. Any good player should be +ev in those. Unless, of course, they are doing the producers scam.

But I think a lot of the players with some kind of notoriety will push for deals that are less favorable and often get them because it is fun, or sounds cool or whatever.

I'm assuming the guy HB is talking about is looking for someone to put up all or most of the money and he gets a freeroll percentage.

Without makeup, even with a world class player, I think this would be -EV for the backer, especially when you add in vig and tax liabilities.

Quote: beachbumbabs

https://www.chipmeup.com/forum

I want to post on there but I found a section for investors looking for players, not vice versa. Not sure if there's a place I can post. If anybody knows how that works let me know.

Quote: HotBlonde

I want to post on there but I found a section for investors looking for players, not vice versa. Not sure if there's a place I can post. If anybody knows how that works let me know.

The following thread is guidance on how to start selling shares. It's pretty much all I know about the mechanics, and I can't say I understood it all.

However, they have both a help section and a FAQ in addition to this, so maybe among all that, you can find what you need.

https://www.chipmeup.com/forum/10/topic/1840/getting-started-on-chipmeup/a-good-way-to-start-if-you-want-to-sell-shares

In addition to the main event buy in, there are "living" expenses to cover, especially since the WSOP is a multi day / multi week event. Besides the main event, there are other tournaments with six or seven figure prize pools to enter that month, as well as pretty meaty cash games around town.

At the higher levels, top players need corporate resources to provide intelligence on their opponents, many of whom will be relatively unknown. Given the size of the player pool, there is a very good chance they may not have faced each other previously.

Quote: Deucekies

Proportionate to the amount of the buy-in covered. If I give you $1,000 towards a $10,000 buy-in and you cash, I get my $1,000 back plus 10% of the profits.

In some cases, you might have a deal where first, you pay them back their stakes from previous tournaments where you didn't cash.

That doesn't seem right.. If someone were to get 10 backers at a 1000 a piece and giving 10% of his winnings to them proportionately then he would be giving away 100% of his winnings and profit zero for doing all the work...hmmm

Quote: WatchMeWin

That doesn't seem right.. If someone were to get 10 backers at a 1000 a piece and giving 10% of his winnings to them proportionately then he would be giving away 100% of his winnings and profit zero for doing all the work...hmmm

Then they should just back themselves. If you don't have the money then don't play.

Work???? Really????????????? LOL people do it for fun.

They are free rolling future sponsorship deals and whatnot. If they get to the final table they will have no problem getting backers in the future. They can then make lucrative deals for themselves.

What percent should the player get if someone else puts up all the money? I certainly hope no one was thinking a 50% freeroll.

IMO a 20% freeroll would be too much.

I would also keep your eye on YouStake: https://youstake.com I know they were trying to get fully setup (formal relationship with card rooms for wiring funds and having representatives physically present) for WSOP but I am not sure if they will make it this year.

I've backed personal friends in poker tournaments before and my return on investment is 0%. As I'm told, it was because they never advanced into the money. There is sometimes a bad beat story to accompany the explanation. However, the life of a tournament player is feast or famine, and usually famine, so I don't mean to impugn anybody's integrity.

I'd also like to mention I've heard of huge fights and friendships lost over such things. Often there is deal after deal made in these things and it can get confusing how to adjudicate the various deals to split winnings and pay off investors.

It is reasonable to seek investors, even if you don't need them. If I had a 10% chance to win $10,000,000 I'd sell shares of any winnings at a positive EV to the buyer. Looking at it from a utility of money perspective, it makes sense. Much as buying insurance often makes sense, even though it is negative EV.

Personally, I don't know the guy so am staying out. Each of you can decide for yourselves.

Quote: WatchMeWin

That doesn't seem right.. If someone were to get 10 backers at a 1000 a piece and giving 10% of his winnings to them proportionately then he would be giving away 100% of his winnings and profit zero for doing all the work...hmmm

I agree. Getting in the money might be break even, but the farther they progress, the potential is the selling point. If you're a poker player with any degree of skill, I'd think you'd sell 50% of the money for 100% of the cost of entering. The backers in a 100% scenario would want him to play for the highest finish, and not want him abandoning his chips as the chip leader. You have to expect the person playing to make some money, they're not slaves

Quote: WatchMeWin

That doesn't seem right.. If someone were to get 10 backers at a 1000 a piece and giving 10% of his winnings to them proportionately then he would be giving away 100% of his winnings and profit zero for doing all the work...hmmm

No player is going to give away 100% of himself to backers. If he wants to enter a $10,000 tournament, he'll probably put up $1,000 himself, and sell 90% of his action.

A lot of tournament pros sell pieces of themselves to lower the variance of the tournament grind. Even the best tournament players cash in less than 20% of the events they enter so the losing streaks can be massive. Obviously the rewards can be HUGE if you win one or at least final table. Many of the better players will charge a "mark up" on the shares they sell. Maybe to buy 1% of a players action he might sell it at 1.3%. The better the player the higher the mark up, supply and demand of course. I want to say StakeKings is the most commonly used site at the moment to buy/sell pieces of a tournament or package. I would recommend to get everything in writing if you are to buy a piece of a tournament player. How will taxes be handled? What if the player gets a sponsorship deal along the way is it included in your payback? What if there is a deal to be made at the final table, do you need to be consulted? The list goes on and on regarding potential problems so get as much in writing as possible.

RD

Axel and Wizard:

It's actually a fairly common practice among pro's in an effort to reduce variance. However, tournaments are VERY feast or famine in the poker world. Take a look at most pro's that have done WELL in tournaments. Say there's a few that have WON 5 WSOP events even. That's really phenomenal, and they've made a ton of money, but how many tournaments do you think they entered while winning those 5? I'd say something like 100+. The win rate for tournaments, even for great professionals, is low due to the insane variance that comes with tournaments. Though, they do it because for a $1k buy in you can get a $1 million return in some cases (well worth the 5%, or less, win rate). Pro's can often find themselves going deep, but in tournaments you just simply can't win if you don't win some key coin flip situations and that's where to a small extent it comes down to luck. Pro's understand this and to help mitigate the variance brought about by the large buy ins and these coin flips they sell off some of their action.

It's a fairly decent investment to get a piece of the pie for a smaller return if you trust your guy is good at the game, ESPECIALLY tournament strategy (which is quite different than cash games - just like blackjack). That's what it really comes down to. I had a ton of friends want to back me in the WSOP main event but I declined because that's basically a craps shoot with the number of people and coin flips you have to survive to actually do well in it. I suggested taking the money and playing in 9-10 of the side events practically guaranteeing that I'd cash in a couple of those (especially the non hold'em events) but everyone was stary-eyed on the main event grand prize.

On a personal note, I don't like how the only couple threads I've seen from HB over the last year are for her asking for money for her and her friend(s).

Quote: Romes

Axel and Wizard:

It's actually a fairly common practice among pro's in an effort to reduce variance. However, tournaments are VERY feast or famine in the poker world. Take a look at most pro's that have done WELL in tournaments. Say there's a few that have WON 5 WSOP events even. That's really phenomenal, and they've made a ton of money, but how many tournaments do you think they entered while winning those 5? I'd say something like 100+. The win rate for tournaments, even for great professionals, is low due to the insane variance that comes with tournaments. Though, they do it because for a $1k buy in you can get a $1 million return in some cases (well worth the 5%, or less, win rate). Pro's can often find themselves going deep, but in tournaments you just simply can't win if you don't win some key coin flip situations and that's where to a small extent it comes down to luck. Pro's understand this and to help mitigate the variance brought about by the large buy ins and these coin flips they sell off some of their action.

It's a fairly decent investment to get a piece of the pie for a smaller return if you trust your guy is good at the game, ESPECIALLY tournament strategy (which is quite different than cash games - just like blackjack). That's what it really comes down to. I had a ton of friends want to back me in the WSOP main event but I declined because that's basically a craps shoot with the number of people and coin flips you have to survive to actually do well in it. I suggested taking the money and playing in 9-10 of the side events practically guaranteeing that I'd cash in a couple of those (especially the non hold'em events) but everyone was stary-eyed on the main event grand prize.

On a personal note, I don't like how the only couple threads I've seen from HB over the last year are for her asking for money for her and her friend(s).

A long term deal with make up and whatnot may have some merit depending on who the player is(a very rare find). I dont think the kind of deal most players are looking for are +EV for the backer.

Even with a make up deal you better have a complete meeting of the minds.

If a guy is on make up and he is in the hole significantly there is little or no motivation for him to want to keep playing.



p.s. HB has since posted a few links to some articles.

Quote: AxelWolf

...p.s. HB has since posted a few links to some articles.

Are you sure that isn't "ForeverBlonde"?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Are you sure that isn't "ForeverBlonde"?

You are probably right about that. I think I have done that before as well.

I would think the real dealing would come once someone has progressed to a certain point in the tournament and something like selling 10% of their stake for $10,000 becomes a mutually beneficial transaction

If you sell 120% of yourself and lose..... You made 2k

Looks like 50/50 winnings with initial stake back is common play.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2012/10/jason-mercier-gives-insight-into-the-world-of-staking-13579.htm