Free Roll

My local card room ran a promotion for the top 50 players with most cash game hours logged in the month of February get to play in a tournament in March with a $30,000 prize pool at no cost. Of course there is the optional $25 dealers gratitude that gets you more starting chips. I am happy to say that I qualified in the top 10 which also nets me an extra 25% to my starting stack. Payouts will be as follows....

1. $10,000
2. $7500
3. $5000
4. $3000
5. $1500
6. $800
7. $700
8. $600
9. $500
10. $400

Need to play good and run good wish me luck! Tournament is Sunday March 12th.

RD

Quote: RisingDough

My local card room ran a promotion for the top 50 players with most cash game hours logged in the month of February get to play in a tournament in March with a $30,000 prize pool at no cost. Of course there is the optional $25 dealers gratitude that gets you more starting chips. I am happy to say that I qualified in the top 10 which also nets me an extra 25% to my starting stack. Payouts will be as follows....

1. $10,000
2. $7500
3. $5000
4. $3000
5. $1500
6. $800
7. $700
8. $600
9. $500
10. $400

Need to play good and run good wish me luck! Tournament is Sunday March 12th.

RD

Good luck RisingDough! If When you make the final table, I am curious at what point you would consider a chop?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Good luck RisingDough! If When you make the final table, I am curious at what point you would consider a chop?

It will depend on factors such as my chip stack relative to others and skill level of opponents. I am confident in my tournament play especially in this event as the majority of the players are strictly cash game players that won't be as familiar with short stack play and bubble strategies.


RD

What casino? Sounds like a great promo. I would imagine people sleep in their poker seats for the entire month.

A chop at any point is worth considering. A chop without playing a hand is worth 8th place money. A final table chop is worth 4th place money.

Standard freeroll structure is fast levels because they don't want you or dealers there all day, they want you gambling with the money you just won. So that further reduces any skill edge and increases the luck factor. I'd be surprised if going into the final table if the average chip stack is over 12BB.

Quote: BTLWI

A chop at any point is worth considering. A chop without playing a hand is worth 8th place money. A final table chop is worth 4th place money.

Standard freeroll structure is fast levels because they don't want you or dealers there all day, they want you gambling with the money you just won. So that further reduces any skill edge and increases the luck factor. I'd be surprised if going into the final table if the average chip stack is over 12BB.

Agreed the structure will probably be fast and I am always willing to look at a potential chop but I also think how often am I going to be in an event against a full field of players with very little tournament experience and have a chance at winning 10k? But it will be a wait and see approach. I think these guys will be playing similar to what they do in a cash game very loose passive and not realizing the importance of having a chip stack.

What poker room offers this?

For whatever it may be worth, I've ended up playing a lot of these over the past ten plus years, since about half the Las Vegas area rooms I've frequented have at some point used their promo fund for some kind of hours based freeroll tourney. Some are bigger including a few with six figure prize pools, and a lot more are smaller, but almost all have had a fast structure with only one exception that I can recall to that usual hyper-turbo tourney design. From that experience with the kind of Las Vegas locals typically qualifying for these things, and obviously not knowing this room's player base and with only scant inferences about his poker backstory coming into it, I tend to agree with everything the OP has said about how he's approaching this.

Though a fast structure might justifiably be considered a crapshoot among tournament players, it has been my experience that the population of small stakes exclusively cash game players who make up most of the freeroll fields I've seen are actually most severely disadvantaged by the fast shake-n-bake rapid blind & ante escalation of these spin-dry events. They are often trying to play a make-a-hand CARD game, without familiarity with tournament concepts. Many of them just don't get the suicidal effect of limp-call & check-fold, and remain oblivious to position waiting for a "good hand" while the primary weapon of their stack size is crippled.

Sure, some will luckbox their way into chipping up, and sometimes they'll do it at your expense with something like their religious devotion to their naked draw to a baby flush, but I actually have a ridiculously high success rate going deep in these compared to other tournaments. I may have had a particular advantage in some of them with the cash game regulars because of the radical change in my play. They continue to picture the tight cash player from the qualifying play, instead of the psycho-monkey-on-crack tournament guy when I send my crazed homicidal twin to take my seat in these, even after the demented impostor has been constantly abusing limpers and routinely vacuuming up blinds.

There's usually been a negotiated chop at some point, off the top of my head in about 80% of them. On this too I've found a lot of the cash regulars can be just as lost at sea in discussing a "fair" chop proposal as they are in assessing the significance of blind to stack ratios, and personal dynamics among some hard core local regulars has often appeared to me to have as much weight as any rational estimate of comparative equity in the prize pool.

Good luck.

Well it did not go as I hoped

I got in a spot where I was in the SB and the BB was all in blind for less than a BB. Blinds were 500/1000 with a 100 ante and a MP player shoved for $5300 and action folded to me. I had KJcc in the sb and a stack of $21,000. I made call and was up against AJ and A4 but hit the miracle flop of K-8-4 but watched the board run out Q-T to lose to a straight. Three hands later the same player jams and I pick up JJ and re-jam and he has 88 and flops a set. That was that. Structure was pretty fast as expected in a free roll. Thanks for the well wishes everyone! Heading to Vegas Tuesday!


RD

Quote: RisingDough

Well it did not go as I hoped

I got in a spot where I was in the SB and the BB was all in blind for less than a BB. Blinds were 500/1000 with a 100 ante and a MP player shoved for $5300 and action folded to me. I had KJcc in the sb and a stack of $21,000. I made call and was up against AJ and A4 but hit the miracle flop of K-8-4 but watched the board run out Q-T to lose to a straight. Three hands later the same player jams and I pick up JJ and re-jam and he has 88 and flops a set. That was that. Structure was pretty fast as expected in a free roll. Thanks for the well wishes everyone! Heading to Vegas Tuesday!


RD

Why did you call?

Quote: RisingDough

Well it did not go as I hoped

I got in a spot where I was in the SB and the BB was all in blind for less than a BB. Blinds were 500/1000 with a 100 ante and a MP player shoved for $5300 and action folded to me. I had KJcc in the sb and a stack of $21,000. I made call and was up against AJ and A4 but hit the miracle flop of K-8-4 but watched the board run out Q-T to lose to a straight. Three hands later the same player jams and I pick up JJ and re-jam and he has 88 and flops a set. That was that. Structure was pretty fast as expected in a free roll. Thanks for the well wishes everyone! Heading to Vegas Tuesday!


RD

I followed everything you.guys said except I can't figure out what "a MP player" is. Translation, somebody, pease?

Quote: beachbumbabs

I followed everything you.guys said except I can't figure out what "a MP player" is. Translation, somebody, pease?

MP = Middle Position

Around the table you would refer to players as

sb = small blind
bb= big blind
utg = under the gun (first to act)
ep = early position (can also state them as utg+1, utg+2
mp = middle position (can use mp1, mp2, mp3)
hj = two before the button/1 before the cutoff
co= cut off
b or bt = button


Just makes it easier to refer to which player you were against and who had position in the hand.

RD

Quote: RisingDough

MP = Middle Position

Around the table you would refer to players as

sb = small blind
bb= big blind
utg = under the gun (first to act)
ep = early position (can also state them as utg+1, utg+2
mp = middle position (can use mp1, mp2, mp3)
hj = two before the button/1 before the cutoff
co= cut off
b or bt = button


Just makes it easier to refer to which player you were against and who had position in the hand.

RD

Thanks, RD. I was aware of all that list except ep and mp. I do appreciate it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Why did you call?

In the KJcc hand we want to consider a few things.

1. Pot odds (How much do I have to put in vs how much I can win?)

2. Range of hands my opponents can have?

In this case as stated the big blind had less than 1k so he is all in without even looking at his cards so his range of possible hands is infinite and doesn't matter much since I can only lose $900 to him. The other player shoved all in willingly so he has a better grouping of hands. So what types of hands will he show up with in this spot? Let's consider the blind level is 500/1000 and a 100 ante which means to play one orbit around the table it will cost each player $2500. The player in question here has only $5300 left in his stack so he should be very motivated to gets his chips in play or he is just going to get blinded away. So if we put our opponent on any pocket pair, Any suited Ace, any off suit A9 or better, any 2 broadway cards my equity is about 47%.

I am sb so I already have $500 in the pot and I am facing a bet of $5300. So in the pot is his $5300+$1000 in antes + my sb of $500 plus the bb of $900 (I think he had exactly $1000 but had to put $100 in the ante leaving him only $900 to post as a bb). So total in the pot is $7700 and it is costing me $4800 to call. I do close action, nobody else can do anything after my decision and I can knock two players out of the tournament. My stack isn't in the greatest position at about $21,000 so if I call and lose I'll be at approx $16,000 but if I call and win I will be at around $29,000.

When the structure is fast moving like this was you have to find some spots to gamble. I think it was fine as I was getting a decent price with a hand that I should win near half the time.


As far as the JJ hand I am ahead of his range as his stack is only around 12k now still just 12 big blinds. So he will be shoving most pairs lets say 88 and higher, plus bunch of suited aces, suited broadway cards, some big offsuit combos. That puts my equity at 56% and again we are looking at a pot that has his $12,000 plus the blinds and antes that add another $2500 so costing me $12000 to win $14500 and I should win approximately 56% of the time. No brainer there.

Anyways it didn't work out this time but there is always another opportunity around the corner.


Rd

Quote: RisingDough

In the KJcc hand we want to consider a few things.

1. Pot odds (How much do I have to put in vs how much I can win?)

2. Range of hands my opponents can have?

In this case as stated the big blind had less than 1k so he is all in without even looking at his cards so his range of possible hands is infinite and doesn't matter much since I can only lose $900 to him. The other player shoved all in willingly so he has a better grouping of hands. So what types of hands will he show up with in this spot? Let's consider the blind level is 500/1000 and a 100 ante which means to play one orbit around the table it will cost each player $2500. The player in question here has only $5300 left in his stack so he should be very motivated to gets his chips in play or he is just going to get blinded away. So if we put our opponent on any pocket pair, Any suited Ace, any off suit A9 or better, any 2 broadway cards my equity is about 47%.

I am sb so I already have $500 in the pot and I am facing a bet of $5300. So in the pot is his $5300+$1000 in antes + my sb of $500 plus the bb of $900 (I think he had exactly $1000 but had to put $100 in the ante leaving him only $900 to post as a bb). So total in the pot is $7700 and it is costing me $4800 to call. I do close action, nobody else can do anything after my decision and I can knock two players out of the tournament. My stack isn't in the greatest position at about $21,000 so if I call and lose I'll be at approx $16,000 but if I call and win I will be at around $29,000.

When the structure is fast moving like this was you have to find some spots to gamble. I think it was fine as I was getting a decent price with a hand that I should win near half the time.


As far as the JJ hand I am ahead of his range as his stack is only around 12k now still just 12 big blinds. So he will be shoving most pairs lets say 88 and higher, plus bunch of suited aces, suited broadway cards, some big offsuit combos. That puts my equity at 56% and again we are looking at a pot that has his $12,000 plus the blinds and antes that add another $2500 so costing me $12000 to win $14500 and I should win approximately 56% of the time. No brainer there.

Anyways it didn't work out this time but there is always another opportunity around the corner.


Rd

To be clear, I was not saying it was a bad call. I was asking why you called and you gave a good answer.

Quote: AxelWolf

To be clear, I was not saying it was a bad call. I was asking why you called and you gave a good answer.

Yup, no worries at all I enjoy discussion. I in no way claim to be an expert. I am a winning poker player but always willing to hear different view points and discuss things that's how we all learn. That's why I came to this forum in the first place is to learn about AP stuff. Much of which isn't as easy to discuss in the open since it's advantageous to keep to one's self. But I have learned quite a bit already.


RD

Quote: AxelWolf

To be clear, I was not saying it was a bad call. I was asking why you called and you gave a good answer.

I pretty much like his assessment of playing the hand. The chip stacks, positions, etc, all make sense. The only other thing we don't have access to is their style/skill level which you may factor in with your knowledge from playing with them. Even so, anyone who wants to get a bit more in to poker should read and re-read this assessment as this is what you must do nearly every time with this type of decision. Great read and breakdown, just sucks you ran in to AJ... then after hitting your dream flop having it again snatched away (by the bigger better to boot - who cares if you lose $900 to the small better).

p.s. even by your own assumption of any suited ace, or a-9 off or better you're range is more closer to 41%-47.5%, without really factoring in the disaster situations of AK, AJ, and PP's. So I definitely agree with your breakdown and more than likely would have put my money in here too but perhaps the 47% is on the higher end of the way those hands could turn over (re: guy happen to turn over AJ). Even if they had A-Q off and A-2 suited (with none of your clubs) you're still sitting at 41%. I know this is slightly splitting hairs, but since you're on that level of play a fun discussion? =p

Sounds like you played well and picked a good spot to be in but came up on the short end of the variance =/. Thanks for the report and I'd love to hear more to keep my poker itch in check =D.

Quote: Romes

I pretty much like his assessment of playing the hand. The chip stacks, positions, etc, all make sense. The only other thing we don't have access to is their style/skill level which you may factor in with your knowledge from playing with them. Even so, anyone who wants to get a bit more in to poker should read and re-read this assessment as this is what you must do nearly every time with this type of decision. Great read and breakdown, just sucks you ran in to AJ... then after hitting your dream flop having it again snatched away (by the bigger better to boot - who cares if you lose $900 to the small better).

p.s. even by your own assumption of any suited ace, or a-9 off or better you're range is more closer to 41%-47.5%, without really factoring in the disaster situations of AK, AJ, and PP's. So I definitely agree with your breakdown and more than likely would have put my money in here too but perhaps the 47% is on the higher end of the way those hands could turn over (re: guy happen to turn over AJ). Even if they had A-Q off and A-2 suited (with none of your clubs) you're still sitting at 41%. I know this is slightly splitting hairs, but since you're on that level of play a fun discussion? =p

Sounds like you played well and picked a good spot to be in but came up on the short end of the variance =/. Thanks for the report and I'd love to hear more to keep my poker itch in check =D.

Heading to vegas tonight for a couple weeks of poker and march madness! Maybe I'll try to post some interesting hands from cash game and tournaments in here to breakdown.

Thanks everyone,

RD

Quote: RisingDough

Heading to vegas tonight for a couple weeks of poker and march madness! Maybe I'll try to post some interesting hands from cash game and tournaments in here to breakdown.

Thanks everyone,

RD

RD, Where do you normally play poker ? You strike me as a Philly guy.