Dealers misreading hands. No Limit Hold Em.

Has anyone ever experienced a dealer shipping the chips to the wrong winner at the end of a showdown? I'll explain one incident and a rookie mistake that I didn't catch at the time. Being a beginner I feel certain boards can be confusing to me. Don't get me wrong.I know how to read everything from a high hand to a royal flush but at times I can't tell if I tie with my opponent or not. Here's my story.

This incident took place at Bally's Poker Room in a 1/2 No Limit game.

There's 3 players in the hand. I'm in middle position,and limp in for $2 with Jd 8s. The flop comes Jc 8c 3c.Obviously not a great flop for me unless I hit runner-runner on the turn or river to make a boat. First player bets $8.I call,button calls. The turn card is the king of clubs. Great,now I'm thinking either one my opponents hit their flush or is slow playing it. UTG checks, I check, button bets $15. UTG folds. I call because my gut tells me he doesn't have a flush and my two pair is good. River card is the 10 of clubs. At this point I have to check because there maybe a slight chance the button is holding one club. I check, the button bets $25 and I call. He flips his cards over As Ts ,and yells "I got the nuts"! Dealer pushes up the river card and says ace high flush. I turn my cards over because I figure my two pair is the winner. Dealer looks at them and then mucks my hand. Later I learned after talking to an experienced player and using a poker calculator that it was a tie! It could be that the dealer thought the player was holding the Ace of clubs or maybe she was uneducated that we both paired the board. Fortunately the pot was small and didn't put a dent in my stack.

Has this ever happened to anyone else? I'd like to hear some stories and your thoughts on these situations.

I've seen 2 incidents, one of which a lot was pushed to me on the losing end. In that case we had surveillance review it and I sent the correct amount to the winner.

Yes, it happens occasionally, even with the very best dealers, and will again. When it does, it is one of the very few times that the job of people who are out of the hand is NOT to shut up and stay that way - as they almost always should in most situations, including when they see what a player has who has not yet tabled his cards and absolutely MUST zip their lips about what anyone may have. In this case, when the hands were properly tabled, every player at the table as well as the cocktail waitress and her nephew parking cars out front and their momma has an ethical obligation to point out the error as soon as possible if they catch it, even if the cards are now in the muck.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've seen 2 incidents, one of which a lot was pushed to me on the losing end. In that case we had surveillance review it and I sent the correct amount to the winner.

Absolutely the right way to handle it, kudos.

You flopped two pair (top two pair actually) and were possibly up against a flush (or flush draw, or other hands). You only needed a jack or eight on the turn or the river to fill up (to complete the full house). So you did not need "runner-runner" to make the full house. Also the hand you describe should have been a split pot as both players where playing the "board". In this case both players had a king high flush.
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I agree with DD here. When the hand is over and the players cards are turned up anyone can read them and discuss the hand. But be careful with this...many people with good intentions (myself included) can and will make mistakes reading boards and hands. When in doubt, one can to ask for help from a floor person in these situations.

I think it's very doubtful that everyone misread the hands at showdown. Coupled with your opponent declaring the nuts, I'd bet that you mistook the Ac for the As. Cards speak, and everyone at the table has an obligation to speak up if the wrong hand is being pushed the pot. For the most part everyone understands this and isn't shy about speaking up if the dealer is trying to muck the winning tabled hand.

Well articulated Keeneone! Excuse my Poker terminology, its at a kindergarten level. Yes,it should have been a split pot! There has been instances where I beat my opponent with let's say a flush and the dealer pushed the chips to other player. In this case I knew my hand was solid and I can easily correct the dealer. It's just those tie hands that confuse me.

If you ever played at Bally's you would know that a majority of the players when not invested in the hand are distracted with their phones or just not paying attention. My opponents were sitting in seats 1 & 4 I was seat 3. There were 7 players total. Seat 3 player was the one who folded. We both saw the Ace of spades. After the hand the so called winner even said he was scared that I might have hit a flush and for this reason he only bet $30. No mistake,he had what I said he had. Unfortunately nobody spoke up. Another theory is the guy was angle shooting the dealer hoping that she would mistake the spade for a club by screaming " I got the nuts!"

Quote: spr1000

Has anyone ever experienced a dealer shipping the chips to the wrong winner at the end of a showdown? I'll explain one incident and a rookie mistake that I didn't catch at the time. Being a beginner I feel certain boards can be confusing to me. Don't get me wrong.I know how to read everything from a high hand to a royal flush but at times I can't tell if I tie with my opponent or not. Here's my story.

This incident took place at Bally's Poker Room in a 1/2 No Limit game.

There's 3 players in the hand. I'm in middle position,and limp in for $2 with Jd 8s. The flop comes Jc 8c 3c.Obviously not a great flop for me unless I hit runner-runner on the turn or river to make a boat. First player bets $8.I call,button calls. The turn card is the king of clubs. Great,now I'm thinking either one my opponents hit their flush or is slow playing it. UTG checks, I check, button bets $15. UTG folds. I call because my gut tells me he doesn't have a flush and my two pair is good. River card is the 10 of clubs. At this point I have to check because there maybe a slight chance the button is holding one club. I check, the button bets $25 and I call. He flips his cards over As Ts ,and yells "I got the nuts"! Dealer pushes up the river card and says ace high flush. I turn my cards over because I figure my two pair is the winner. Dealer looks at them and then mucks my hand. Later I learned after talking to an experienced player and using a poker calculator that it was a tie! It could be that the dealer thought the player was holding the Ace of clubs or maybe she was uneducated that we both paired the board. Fortunately the pot was small and didn't put a dent in my stack.

Has this ever happened to an yone else? I'd like to hear some stories and your thoughts on these situations.

I'll be blunt. First. you are miss using the term runner-runner in this scenario. Runner-runner means both the turn and the river complete your hand. Second. YOU shouldn't be playing J-8 off in middle(or late) position unless you are an advanced player or you have special circumstances. I can think of many situations where an advanced player could justify playing J-8 off. Unfortunately it's a crap hand
Someone will probably argue you can limp in with it in the cut off or the button depending on how many callers assuming the blinds are not aggressive tricky player. He can probably argue a case for himself however he's probably an advanced player.

Monetarily speaking, I don't think you should be playing NL poker if you can't tell if you tie with your opponent or not and you don't know when to play the board. Your first instinct should have been to look at your opponents hand and see what club he may of had. If for some reason you cant see speak up.

The times I have seen situations like this the floor will oftentimes go to the muck or call surveillance. Unfortunately I have seen situations where the player who incorrectly had the pot pushed to him refused to give it back. They said it would come out of the dealers pay.

Quote: spr1000

If you ever played at Bally's you would know that a majority of the players when not invested in the hand are distracted with their phones or just not paying attention. My opponents were sitting in seats 1 & 4 I was seat 3. There were 7 players total. Seat 3 player was the one who folded. We both saw the Ace of spades. After the hand the so called winner even said he was scared that I might have hit a flush and for this reason he only bet $30. No mistake,he had what I said he had. Unfortunately nobody spoke up. Another theory is the guy was angle shooting the dealer hoping that she would mistake the spade for a club by screaming " I got the nuts!"

Occam's Razor. He had the flush and you misread his hand. It's by far the only explanation that makes sense.

You stated that you thought your two pair was good on the river when the board contained 5 clubs. This certainly brings your ability to differentiate and remember suits and ranks into question.

Quote: sabre

Occam's Razor. He had the flush and you misread his hand. It's by far the only explanation that makes sense.

You stated that you thought your two pair was good on the river when the board contained 5 clubs. This certainly brings your ability to differentiate and remember suits and ranks into question.

+1

Don't be in such a hurry. Anytime I get to show down I completely ignore the dealer and other players and read the board myself. The cards are not leaving my hands until I have verified who gets the money.

I don't play a ton of poker anymore but I used to. I have seen this same mistake happen more times than I can remember.

First off, I feel for you -- it sucks when your pot (or even the 1/2 that was yours) gets pushed to the other guy.

I've been playing poker (draw & stud) since my hands were big enough to hold 5 cards at once, but when I started to learn community card poker games (Holdem & Omaha), I struggled correctly reading the board at first. It can get confusing, especially when your hand is counterfeited by cards coming on the turn & river.

I would suggest, before your next session, grabbing a deck of cards, dealing two to yourself, and then the flop, turn, and river. At each stage, examine what would be the best hand (nuts) based on what is on the board. Also, look at your hand, and think what cards would best improve your hand.

Keep repeating this exercise until you know the answers to those questions 100%. Pay special attention to when a card comes that improves the value of your hand but at the same time reduces your likelihood of winning. The hand you described above is a perfect example. Your 2 pair improved to a flush, but now anyone with a club higher than the 2c beats you.

Quote: spr1000

There's 3 players in the hand. I'm in middle position,and limp in for $2 with Jd 8s. The flop comes Jc 8c 3c. Obviously not a great flop for me

I disagree. This is about the best flop you could have hoped for, limping in with your hand (See Axel's comments above about playing J-8 off). You obviously don't like the 3 clubs, but your top 2 pair is most likely the best hand out there. If you come over the top of the flop raise, you'll probably take it down right there (or at least know that you are way behind).

Quote: AxelWolf

If for some reason you cant see speak up

+1

If there ever is a question in your mind of whether your hand is beaten, ask the dealer if she will show you the opponent's cards, and the five-card combo that beats you.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'll be blunt. First. you are miss using the term runner-runner in this scenario. Runner-runner means both the turn and the river complete your hand. Second. YOU shouldn't be playing J-8 off in middle(or late) position unless you are an advanced player or you have special circumstances. I can think of many situations where an advanced player could justify playing J-8 off. Unfortunately it's a crap hand
Someone will probably argue you can limp in with it in the cut off or the button depending on how many callers assuming the blinds are not aggressive tricky player. He can probably argue a case for himself however he's probably an advanced player.

Monetarily speaking, I don't think you should be playing NL poker if you can't tell if you tie with your opponent or not and you don't know when to play the board. Your first instinct should have been to look at your opponents hand and see what club he may of had. If for some reason you cant see speak up.

The times I have seen situations like this the floor will oftentimes go to the muck or call surveillance. Unfortunately I have seen situations where the player who incorrectly had the pot pushed to him refused to give it back. They said it would come out of the dealers pay.

All of this plus you should be raising on the flop to see where you are. You flopped top 2 pair and the odds of floppign a flush are actually much much less than most people think. Someone could be betting a pair, or a single club draw and this is your chance to take the pot down with the best hand, which a raise on the flop here sounds like it would have gotten both players to fold.

Just throwing in some thoughts when reading your story. So did the pot end up going to the other player and you/no one else said anything? If that's the case, I agree you probably shouldn't be playing yet if you can't decipher hands and decide who beats who.

Yeah, dealers occasionally make mistakes. So do players.

If you're unsure, stop the dealer and ask. Usually a dealer who has mis-read the hands will get it right when they slow down to do it the second time.

As others have said, you seem like too much of a novice to be playing no limit. Do a Google search for Pub Poker League in your area. Play, and learn, for the price of a burger and a beer.

I disagree. This is about the best flop you could have hoped for, limping in with your hand (See Axel's comments above about playing J-8 off). You obviously don't like the 3 clubs, but your top 2 pair is most likely the best hand out there. If you come over the top of the flop raise, you'll probably take it down right there (or at least know that you are way behind).

Yes,Total beginner mistake on my end! Future flops were I've been in the same situation I've bet aggressively to get information and or steal the pot representing a strong hand.

+1