Actual Protocol

For some reason I always seem to NOT get along with Asian female POKER dealers very well.
They either don't know the rules or don't care. They generally seem to favor regulars(I guess that's natural and I too have been on the receiving end of favoritism ). Usually the favoritism leans towards older white males who over tip. It's obvious they only over tip because they are sweet on Asian female dealers. No doubt the horny old bastards are just trying to get some Asian action (You know who you are).

While playing NL poker the other night there was one Asian female dealer who was pissing me off. She was blatantly showing favoritism to a few of her regulars.

During one particular hand I was heads up with a player (one of her regulars). The pot had about $350 in it.
He was fist to act and was taking his sweet time. He finally raised his arm with a flat palm and fingers. He hesitated, slowly at first and then speed up his motion and brag it down towards the table to pat check his turn. It was one of them longer exaggerated drawn out thinking checks. He either wanted to bet or check raise me, I assumed he wanted check raise. He was OBVIOUSLY checking. His hand got less than 1/2 inch off the table. I reacted with a check. He stopped the dealer and, said no I didn't act yet because my hand didn't actually hit the table. She allowed him to make a bet after knowledge my intended action. The floor was called after some arguments. The floor said she didn't see the hand and was letting the dealers call stand.

More to come.

Quote: AxelWolf

For some reason I always seem to NOT get along with Asian female POKER dealers very well.
They either don't know the rules or don't care. They generally seem to favor regulars(I guess that's natural and I too have been on the receiving end of favoritism ). Usually the favoritism leans towards older white males who over tip. It's obvious they only over tip because they are sweet on Asian female dealers. No doubt the horny old bastards are just trying to get some Asian action (You know who you are).

While playing NL poker the other night there was one Asian female dealer who was pissing me off. She was blatantly showing favoritism to a few of her regulars.

During one particular hand I was heads up with a player (one of her regulars). The pot had about $350 in it.
He was fist to act and was taking his sweet time. He finally raised his arm with a flat palm and fingers. He hesitated, slowly at first and then speed up his motion and brag it down towards the table to pat check his turn. It was one of them longer exaggerated drawn out thinking checks. He either wanted to bet or check raise me, I assumed he wanted check raise. He was OBVIOUSLY checking. His hand got less than 1/2 inch off the table. I reacted with a check. He stopped the dealer and, said no I didn't act yet because my hand didn't actually hit the table. She allowed him to make a bet after knowledge my intended action. The floor was called after some arguments. The floor said she didn't see the hand and was letting the dealers call stand.

More to come.

Initial thoughts, get the houseman to call Surveillance. Questions regarding what constitutes a hand signal is much easier to determine via CCTV. Video doesn't lie, and you have the (ideally) unbiased opinion of whomever is operating the room, and if need be, the Games Manager to contend with.

In my own experience, I've had to deal with similar calls, or "iffy" calls regarding Blackjack, and Ultimate Texas Hold'Em. Usually, if someone is taking their time with a call or being a general douche, it's usually noted, and not favorably.

Poker cards are usually different and more expensive. When something happens to a card, oftentimes they just change that card out.

Be vigilant check the back of your cards. There were 3 cards with VERY obvious paint wearing and one was an ace.
I don't know how the heck no one said anything prior.

Quote: AxelWolf

Poker cards are usually different and more expensive. When something happens to a card, oftentimes they just change that card out.

Be vigilant check the back of your cards. There were 3 cards with VERY obvious paint wearing and one was an ace.
I don't know how the heck no one said anything prior.

Yes, they're plastic cards instead of paper. They are able to resist the constant bending and manipulation that players to do them. They're also water proof, handy tip.

To be honest, I've noticed defects in most of the cards that I've seen used in play, in many places. In my own facility, I identified a defect that allowed someone to determine the value of the card based on the design on the back, and it was brought to the attention of the general manager.

The whole thing was dismissed under the reasoning of "The players won't look that closely and notice it".

Quote: Dodsferd

Initial thoughts, get the houseman to call Surveillance. Questions regarding what constitutes a hand signal is much easier to determine via CCTV. Video doesn't lie, and you have the (ideally) unbiased opinion of whomever is operating the room, and if need be, the Games Manager to contend with.

In my own experience, I've had to deal with similar calls, or "iffy" calls regarding Blackjack, and Ultimate Texas Hold'Em. Usually, if someone is taking their time with a call or being a general douche, it's usually noted, and not favorably.

There was no argument what he had done, so no need for surveillance.
The dealer even looked at me for my action. He admitted he was in a checking motion and was going to check. He just didn't touch the table.

The argument was if his hand actually had to hit the table before it's considered a check. I say no it doesn't have to actually have to hit the table. Or people would be intentionally doing fake check moves. It's like the forwarded movement with chips rule.

I could've demanded they check the tape and then surveillance could tell the floor that the dealer made a mistake (horrible call). It wasn't worth doing all of that.

I told the guy he knew dam well it was a BS low move. He just shrugged his shoulders. It only affected me by a small factor of no free card. It may have actually saved me from trying to take the pot on a bluff.

It's the fact they let him get away with it.

Needless to say, she didn't get anymore tips from me.

Quote: AxelWolf

Needless to say, she didn't get anymore tips from me.

You only tip after you win a pot, right?

So basically she was getting $0 from you all night anyway, eh?

Quote: AxelWolf

There was no argument what he had done, so no need for surveillance.

Absolutely. I'm just stating that as a suggestion in the event that the staff don't want to deal with it properly.

Quote: RS

You only tip after you win a pot, right?

So basically she was getting $0 from you all night anyway, eh?

Ooooo gut punch.

Axelwolf, how much of your AP-ing comes from poker?

Quote: odiousgambit

Axelwolf, how much of your AP-ing comes from poker?

Very little, I occasionally play for enjoyment nowadays and have a few drinks. I may play once or twice a month if I get an itch, sometimes I don't play for 2 months. I just don't enjoy it as much as I had in the past.

I see a more flops than I should, I make a lot of aggressive moves and rattle a few cages. I should change tables after a few hours or drastically change up my game, but I usually stay on course unless the action is to tight. I can generally create my own action. It's very hard to put me on a hand. But I have above normal fluctuations with some big winners and big losses.

Eh, this is tougher than it sounds. Having a lottttt of poker experience I immediately sided with you in the fact that he 'was' checking. Then, really thinking about being in that situation myself, I'd have no one but myself to blame if I didn't let him actually check and I acted out of turn. Your assessment was more than likely right he was checking, but you got a bit overzealous in my opinion =P. Gotta let them definitively make their move. Poker players can be shady, especially with finite rules towards players they "think" are newer/fish.

Example: Last week...

I sat at a 2-5 NL table and most of the table seemed to be regulars/know each other. They didn't know me because my main playing days were years ago. Anyways, the first pot I finally get in to I slow roll the table bully and let him put me all in on the river when I knew I had the best hand, so I just called (over $1k pot). He says "You win" and DOESN'T muck his hand, nor turn it over. He just holds his cards and I'm behind him to act. This is a super shady move, in my opinion. If he's going to tell me I win, he should release his hand. Why you may ask? Because if he says "You win" and I throw my cards in the muck, HE WINS because he didn't release his hand and I did. So, not being a newbie, I looked at him then and said "Then throw your cards in or turn them over" to which he then did one of those.

They think they're being super clever by doing all of the BS to get an "extra read" or steal the pot from you, but it's hyper annoying and hurts the game. I'll just immediately call someone out like that (even if I'm not in the hand) to make it known that's what they were doing... and let the power of the group annoyance keep them in line from doing it again.

Bottom line though Axel... let him check next time =).

Quote: Romes

Eh, this is tougher than it sounds. Having a lottttt of poker experience I immediately sided with you in the fact that he 'was' checking. Then, really thinking about being in that situation myself, I'd have no one but myself to blame if I didn't let him actually check and I acted out of turn. Your assessment was more than likely right he was checking, but you got a bit overzealous in my opinion =P. Gotta let them definitively make their move. Poker players can be shady, especially with finite rules towards players they "think" are newer/fish.

Example: Last week...

I sat at a 2-5 NL table and most of the table seemed to be regulars/know each other. They didn't know me because my main playing days were years ago. Anyways, the first pot I finally get in to I slow roll the table bully and let him put me all in on the river when I knew I had the best hand, so I just called (over $1k pot). He says "You win" and DOESN'T muck his hand, nor turn it over. He just holds his cards and I'm behind him to act. This is a super shady move, in my opinion. If he's going to tell me I win, he should release his hand. Why you may ask? Because if he says "You win" and I throw my cards in the muck, HE WINS because he didn't release his hand and I did. So, not being a newbie, I looked at him then and said "Then throw your cards in or turn them over" to which he then did one of those.

They think they're being super clever by doing all of the BS to get an "extra read" or steal the pot from you, but it's hyper annoying and hurts the game. I'll just immediately call someone out like that (even if I'm not in the hand) to make it known that's what they were doing... and let the power of the group annoyance keep them in line from doing it again.

Bottom line though Axel... let him check next time =).

IMO It's a check and you don't actually have to hit the table if the action is obvious. If not this move would be done frequently. It is no difference than someone grabbing a stack of chips and moving it forward over "the line" looking for a reaction, then not betting. I'm certain it's not allowed.

Quote: AxelWolf

It is no difference than someone grabbing a stack of chips and moving it forward over "the line" looking for a reaction, then not betting. I'm certain it's not allowed.

Interesting analogy, particularly since what you describe is allowed and happens often.

Quote: AxelWolf

IMO It's a check and you don't actually have to hit the table if the action is obvious. If not this move would be done frequently. It is no difference than someone grabbing a stack of chips and moving it forward over "the line" looking for a reaction, then not betting. I'm certain it's not allowed.

As long as there is a line. This is also a rule that varies by casino. I have played where there is no line and any forward motion is a bet. Others have line where you can cut your chips then in one motion move them forward. I think we have all seen our share of shot takers.

For a $350 pot? Get over it.

I will readily agree that that guy was f#$%ing with you, deliberately, and doing so in violation of the spirit of the rules. Still, I've seen worse.

Here's my perspective: when I play poker, I hardcore overtip. This is deliberate, and has nothing to do with expectation of sex. It has to do with the amount of time I spend exploiting gray areas.

-- You are not supposed to show cards in your hand here. The houseman has the option of calling the hand dead, or issuing a warning. I have received a lot of warnings.
-- Too much angling is frowned upon. I do it whenever I feel like.
-- (Perhaps most egregious) I make other players worse with my constant talking. I deliberately annoy players, sending them on tilt, and even when I'm not trying to provoke a person, I'm probably wreaking havoc on the concentration of players trying to keep track of previous actions.

Just about every night that I play, I do something that a houseman could probably choose to kick me out for. I don't get kicked out, largely because I have a great relationship with my fellow dealers and the housemen. A large part of that is tipping.

It costs me money to tip, but I make more back in equity when it comes to the way everyone at the table seems to lower their required hand value against me. I make more money with A-J than I should, because people will always call me with A-4 or J-10.

Now, I've never tried to exploit the rules the way this player did, and I disagree with the decision. He crossed a line and I would probably object to it. That said, it's really not hard to avoid situations like that (ask, "was that a check, or are you trying to pick up ambient heat from the felt?"). You weren't forced to take an aggressive action. Every single time a dealer/houseman makes a decision, someone loses equity. In this instance, you lost equity, partly because your opponent had invested money in getting the dealers on his side.

Your remedy? Either start tipping more, or make sure you don't act until the player or dealer verbally announces an action, especially heads up. It's not like the game is overly unfair, you just have to be more careful.

Quote: Dodsferd

Initial thoughts, get the houseman to call Surveillance. Questions regarding what constitutes a hand signal is much easier to determine via CCTV. Video doesn't lie, and you have the (ideally) unbiased opinion of whomever is operating the room, and if need be, the Games Manager to contend with.

For a $350 pot? No.

Elastoid,

This board is PG. Please mask your swears in the future. I did this one, but consider this a profanity warning. Thanks!

I've railed Axel. He challenges people; not surprised this guy tried to screw with him. It's his mode, as he explained above; I think he was quite honest about how he presents himself while gaming. Not many people in my experience are as self-aware. Just FWIW.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Elastoid,

This board is PG. Please mask your swears in the future. I did this one, but consider this a profanity warning. Thanks!

I've railed Axel. He challenges people; not surprised this guy tried to screw with him. It's his mode, as he explained above; I think he was quite honest about how he presents himself while gaming. Not many people in my experience are as self-aware. Just FWIW.

My bad. I go back and forth between posting here and another board and I occasionally forget myself.

The worst house decisions I've seen are way worse than this, though. For example, at Casino Edmonton, it's their policy that if you bet out of turn, you're committed to having made the action of putting exactly that many chips in... for example, if you were to bet $60 out of turn, I could then bet $40, and they would treat it as if you had just put in $60 (which would commit you to a min raise), and force you to put in $80, and then have the action come back to me to potentially raise again. That's their policy... it's ridiculous.

So when someone complains about a dude enticing the information of intent to check, in a pot that's only $350... my care cup is empty.

Quote: GWAE

As long as there is a line. This is also a rule that varies by casino. I have played where there is no line and any forward motion is a bet. Others have line where you can cut your chips then in one motion move them forward. I think we have all seen our share of shot takers.

Two casinos in the area have a line, and play it very differently. In one, players are allowed to grab a stack of 20-25 chips, hold them over the line and cut out $50, then take what's left in their hand and pull it back. At another casino, anything that crosses the line is committed.