Should I have played this hand differently?

Ok, so I'm trying to get the actual hand from my hand history in Bovada to copy/paste, but it isn't there for some reason even though I can view earlier hands from the same tourney, so not sure what the problem is with the software.

Anyway, it was getting somewhat close to endgame, about 40-50 players left in a $2 + 0.2 $1,000 guarantee DS game that had 718 entrants and paid out 99 spots. Average chip stack was about 70,000 and I had approx. 140,000 chips.

Pre-flop I had Kc10s. Not a very strong hand but I was either on the button or right before it and blinds were currently at 800/1600 with a small ante so I figured what the hell if I can limp into the flop I'm fine with that. Most people fold and a few stay in. I /think/ the flop was 3c5c7c or something like that...it didn't make any strong pairs and the only way anyone had anything was if they called in with a low pair. Everyone ahead of me folds so I put in a probe bet of half the pot, think it was 1,760 or 2k, and the other player calls. Turn made a king-high flush with Qc. The one remaining player went all-in with about 120k chips.

My thoughts at the time were that I would need more chips for the endgame, and with a made king-high flush, I figured he had 33, 55, 77 or more likely QQ that he just turned into three of a kind and was hoping that I didn't have the flush since there were 4 clubs on the board. With that in mind, I called. When he went all-in on the turn, as it ended up, he had Q7 so he actually just had a two pair. The river happened to be another queen and he killed me with a full house.

Should I have called the all-in? Anything you would recommend doing differently? If I can access the actual hand later I'll copy/paste the exact data since this is all my recollection from a few hours ago but I'm rock solid on what I had as of the turn as well as what the player had on the turn and then river.

Not completely disgusted, finished #45 out of 718 and did cash, but just wondering if I made a mistake calling that big an amount. I just figured a flush would qualify as a "monster hand" and thus I should have stayed in.

Quote: scubatim84

Ok, so I'm trying to get the actual hand from my hand history in Bovada to copy/paste, but it isn't there for some reason even though I can view earlier hands from the same tourney, so not sure what the problem is with the software.

Anyway, it was getting somewhat close to endgame, about 40-50 players left in a $2 + 0.2 $1,000 guarantee DS game that had 718 entrants and paid out 99 spots. Average chip stack was about 70,000 and I had approx. 140,000 chips.

Pre-flop I had Kc10s. Not a very strong hand but I was either on the button or right before it and blinds were currently at 800/1600 with a small ante so I figured what the hell if I can limp into the flop I'm fine with that. Most people fold and a few stay in. I /think/ the flop was 3c5c7c or something like that...it didn't make any strong pairs and the only way anyone had anything was if they called in with a low pair. Everyone ahead of me folds so I put in a probe bet of half the pot, think it was 1,760 or 2k, and the other player calls. Turn made a king-high flush with Qc. The one remaining player went all-in with about 120k chips.

My thoughts at the time were that I would need more chips for the endgame, and with a made king-high flush, I figured he had 33, 55, 77 or more likely QQ that he just turned into three of a kind and was hoping that I didn't have the flush since there were 4 clubs on the board. With that in mind, I called. When he went all-in on the turn, as it ended up, he had Q7 so he actually just had a two pair. The river happened to be another queen and he killed me with a full house.

Should I have called the all-in? Anything you would recommend doing differently? If I can access the actual hand later I'll copy/paste the exact data since this is all my recollection from a few hours ago but I'm rock solid on what I had as of the turn as well as what the player had on the turn and then river.

Not completely disgusted, finished #45 out of 718 and did cash, but just wondering if I made a mistake calling that big an amount. I just figured a flush would qualify as a "monster hand" and thus I should have stayed in.

summarize PLEASE.

Interesting......... but not enough to read everything.

Kc10s with 357Qc on the board. He has ~140k chip count.

Only other player called on the ante/flop/whatever. And about 2k(?) in the pot. He goes 120k all in.

Player with Kc10s calls with a K high flush and ends up losing to a QQQ77 FH on the river.

In your position (on the button or just before) with your stack I would have raised with K,10 or never have played it.

Went back and read it.

Quote: scubatim84

. I /think/ the flop was 3c5c7c or something like that...it didn't make any strong pairs and the only way anyone had anything was if they called in with a low pair..

WRONG a blind hand can have ANYTHING.



Wow.....Big mistake letting the blinds and anyone in to see a limped in or free flop.Good chance anyone with a stronger hand than K 10 would have Raised. You should have assumed you had the best hand (but marginally so) and made a hefty raise (impossible for us to read the players, only you know )

Why let blinds see a 1/2 price or free flop?

8k would have taken it down pre flop.

Agree with axel, limping is only good if you are hoping to trap someone. Kt is not a trapping hand. As played, obviously you go all in but I would have either folded pre or raised pre. I am never limping with that hand.

Quote: rainman

In your position (on the button or just before) with your stack I would have raised with K,10 or never have played it.

Yes, this. On the button or in the cutoff in a limped pot in a tournament, raise or fold.

Raise > Fold >>> Call

Interesting, never would have thought KT was that bad a hand...Harrington's book made it sound like limping in isn't bad if the pot odds aren't terrible and you can see the pot cheaply.

I was able to find the hand btw.

I was in even later position, BB, with 8dJc so I definitely didn't have as strong a hand as I thought. Blinds were 1250/2500 and ante was 250...9 person table.

Cards are dealt, everyone but position 2/4 folds. Position 2 and 4 call the big blind. Didn't cost me anything to see flop, so I checked.

Flop was 3cKc7c.

We all checked, so at this point, none of us had anything. Turn 3cKc7cQc. I open up betting with half the pot for 5,250 because at this point I have queen-high flush. 2nd position folds, 4th position calls. River 3cKc7cQcQd. This was where I figured he made 3 of a kind with kings or queens but I had a flush so didn't matter. Didn't see three of a kind on the board so I wasn't considering a full house as a highly likely scenario. I bet the entire pot at 21,000 and he raised me for all-in with 108,224. Having to call for 87,224 is the decision I'm wondering about since he turned up a full house thanks to that river card.

In hindsight, I'm wondering if I should have raised 3-4x BB since no one else was betting strongly and I could have just taken the pot right there.

Also, as a side note, I was recently moved to the table I was at so I couldn't yet get a really good read on the players.

The thing with Kt is that you are dominated against when playing better players. Many players won't play anything worse than kj so even if you hit your king then there is a likely chance someone has kj or q. Suited makes it a little better but then again the ace kills you.

In late position I will always play Kt but I don't let the blinds in for free ever.

Ironically my very first hand of live poker In a casino was Kt diamonds, I lost the hand to a rivered full house as well but luckily it was limit so it didn't cost me much.

Quote: scubatim84

I was in even later position, BB.

???

To me at least, there's a lot of different things you should be looking at and have done differently... I'll try to break you post up to point them out (recall this is just my opinion):

Quote: scubatim84

Ok, so I'm trying to get the actual hand from my hand history in Bovada to copy/paste, but it isn't there for some reason even though I can view earlier hands from the same tourney, so not sure what the problem is with the software.

Anyway, it was getting somewhat close to endgame, about 40-50 players left in a $2 + 0.2 $1,000 guarantee DS game that had 718 entrants and paid out 99 spots. Average chip stack was about 70,000 and I had approx. 140,000 chips.

Right here, especially for the hand to come, you should be not only concerned with what your chip stack is, but what the chip stacks of the other players at your table are. For example, if the SB or BB only has like 30,000, I would be less likely to come in for a late position raise of something like 3-5k, as this will less often get called and more often get shoved on because of the portion of chips you're initial raise is committing.

Quote: scubatim84

Pre-flop I had Kc10s. Not a very strong hand but I was either on the button or right before it and blinds were currently at 800/1600 with a small ante so I figured what the hell if I can limp into the flop I'm fine with that.

I think as someone else stated, I disagree with this play. If you're going to play a late position hand that's not as strong, such as K-10, I would rather come in for a raise here than a limp. Again, stack size is very important. If I'm in the BB with 30,000 and I see you limp (and figure you're limping weak and not trapping) I'll shove regardless of my cards just to pick up the blinds/antes which you've now made about a 5k pot (and definitely worth adding to my 30k stack, especially if I just have 2 live cards vs your AK and am 60/40). The proper play here, so long as the SB/BB aren't too short stacked to where their only logical play is to shove back on you, is to raise.

Quote: scubatim84

Most people fold and a few stay in. I /think/ the flop was 3c5c7c or something like that...it didn't make any strong pairs and the only way anyone had anything was if they called in with a low pair. Everyone ahead of me folds so I put in a probe bet of half the pot, think it was 1,760 or 2k, and the other player calls.

I assume you mean the players in front of you check, not fold... When it gets to you, yes, I would absolutely bet like you did to test/try to pick up the pot. When the player in seat 1 calls, I would think he may be on a flush draw as well (but as you get more information it's quite easy to change your opinion of his hand).

Quote: scubatim84

Turn made a king-high flush with Qc. The one remaining player went all-in with about 120k chips. My thoughts at the time were that I would need more chips for the endgame, and with a made king-high flush, I figured he had 33, 55, 77 or more likely QQ that he just turned into three of a kind and was hoping that I didn't have the flush since there were 4 clubs on the board. With that in mind, I called.

I'm sorry this to me doesn't seem like very good reasoning... When the turn comes another club, the only thing I'd be worries is if the other player has the Ace of clubs... So let's see what we think he would have done if he was on the Ac... He probably would have lead out with a bet on the flop to try to take the pot down. If he's not an aggressive player perhaps he would just check/call, so it's possible he has it.

Now on the turn he leads out for a 120K all in? Is this what you would do if you had the Ac and called the flop and turned the nuts? I know I wouldn't. I would expect a shorter stack to shove in this spot (and on the flop really), but I would expect a bigger stack like 120k to check to the better and opt for the check-raise.

So let's reconstruct the hand: Checks his option, check/calls the 3 club low card flop (to me ruling out a flopped 2 pair or set, as he would want to raise to take the pot down before the 4th club has an opportunity to land and decimate his hand). So when he calls I'm thinking he's got middle/top pair, and/or a flush draw (maybe the ace, maybe not). Let's go to the turn, Qc...

The fact that he just shoves for 120k, to me, reeks of something weaker... a smaller flush (probably J or 10 given you have the K, the Q is on the board, and I don't believe the A would lead out with a shove), or something like 2 pair (with the Q). Recall I wouldn't put him on a set here because I feel a set would have raised on the flop to protect itself from the 4th club.

Thus, ultimately reconstructing the hand logically would lead me to believe my K flush is good, and I would call. I tried to give my 100% honest breakdown pretending I didn't know what his hand was (of course that's hard to do when you do know it). This would literally be how I would handle the situation (reconstruct the hand), because when you take a step back and pull together hand possibilities and how they would be played, more than not the other players hand becomes quite obvious. The rest of the hand is erroneous, as far as break down / analysis goes. You get your money in good, and the rest is up to Lady Luck (variance).

Quote: scubatim84

When he went all-in on the turn, as it ended up, he had Q7 so he actually just had a two pair. The river happened to be another queen and he killed me with a full house.

Should I have called the all-in? Anything you would recommend doing differently? If I can access the actual hand later I'll copy/paste the exact data since this is all my recollection from a few hours ago but I'm rock solid on what I had as of the turn as well as what the player had on the turn and then river.

Not completely disgusted, finished #45 out of 718 and did cash, but just wondering if I made a mistake calling that big an amount. I just figured a flush would qualify as a "monster hand" and thus I should have stayed in.

There are no "monster hands" regardless if you had a 9 high flush or a K high flush. All that is monster is determining whether or not you feel you have the best hand. I don't care if I have a 9 high flush, if I feel my opponent doesn't have a flush and I have the best hand, I'll call. If I have the K high flush there and I feel the way my opponent played his hand is like the A high flush, I'll fold.

Good job cashing none the less. More experience = more knowledge = more wisdom =).

Raise KT in late position, don't limp. Never fold the turn.

Ok so seems like I confused some with maybe wrong references or terms...sorry about that still learning and there's quite a lot to learn in this game.

Big question I have on minimum playable hand then...let's assume you get shuffled to a new table or otherwise do not have any information on the other players. Do you assume they all play conservative to start? I would think so, and then at that point, what is the minimum playable handle in general? KJ instead of KT if we're talking face cards or for pairs maybe 77? I know there's no "one size fits all" answer but just trying to get some guidelines here. I know it really depends on the other players, since if say the first 3 players to the right of me fold and no one has opened the bet, I can try to play something marginal since not a lot of strength on the table (if I'm in late position) but sounds like there's still some hands (outside obvious garbage such as 35 or whatever) you never want to play.

Other big question is on limping and checking. Is limping a bad practice to get into? If you have a hand you'd really only want to keep if you can see the flop for free, should you just fold it instead of checking since you're basically saying you have nothing when you check before the flop? Unless the blinds are very miniscule in relation to my stack not sure I'd want to risk 2-5x BB to try to steal the pot or see the flop if I have say 8J (what I ended up having) or KT. If the flop drops and misses me completely, why wouldn't I fold if someone else shows strength? At that point, they have probably made something. If I'm first to bet after the flop I suppose I can try to steal the pot by petting half pot or full pot but risky proposition if you have K-high runt.

Sounds like I should have just tossed the 8J. :)

Quote: scubatim84

Interesting, never would have thought KT was that bad a hand...Harrington's book made it sound like limping in isn't bad if the pot odds aren't terrible and you can see the pot cheaply

Also, as a side note, I was recently moved to the table I was at so I couldn't yet get a really good read on the players.

And when was the last time Dan won anything of consequence? Don't always believe everything you read.

Quote: Boz

And when was the last time Dan won anything of consequence? Don't always believe everything you read.

I'm not. Why do you think I'm posing these questions here? :)

I started with Harrington's books because I read on these forums that they're not a bad place to start but of course I did see recommendations for a lot of other books too. I don't see any point in speed reading them though.

As with anything else, if I see the same theories / concepts / plays pop up in most of the books, forum responses, etc. then I'll assume those are rock solid. If something differs from one book or response to the next, I'll just have to try to fill in the blanks using whatever resources I can and make decisions for myself on what to believe and how to play.

To be fair, his book can't be that bad since I've cashed in almost all of the first 4 or 5 tournaments I played. I can promise you if I didn't read any book and just tried to jump into it I probably would have a cash ratio of 0 because I wouldn't even have known what 2-5xBB even meant.