Low limit games and players (Split from JG blog)
Even seasoned players confuse this. I have won a nice chunk of change over the years from people claiming to have one or the other.Quote: Rigondeauxeven some recreational hold em players confuse sets and trips. "
Pre muck.
villain, "had/have a set/trips"
AxVillan "no you don't/ didn't "
villain, "YES I DID, Ill show you"
AxVillan "No don't show, here is $100, ill bet you, you don't have trips/set.
As someone who is not there on vacation, I try to view part of my role as allowing them to relax and feel entertained, and I think if that is how they're feeling, possibly with some help from the wonderful local institution of complimentary beverage service, then I don't see their potential thoughts on my poker play as a likely problem for me in most cases as long as they don't see me as an unpleasant fellow to be in a pot with. A lot of dealers recognize me anyway, and casual polite chit-chat along the lines of "how's that new house working out, and is the kid starting high-school now?" would tend to give them a little clue that I may possibly have played before, if they were wanting to get one.
There's a recent thread on here about someone's (Dog bless 'em) terrible bad-beat when their trips/no-kicker/no-draw was actually no good (oh my what astounding bad luck!) after limping into a massively multi-way pot with king-rag-off. Because a king is good to have and three of the same thing should win, right? Ugh. For practice I bit my virtual tongue from saying anything on that, too. And even though some advice would've been appropriate for someone posting the question about it, I believe I'm a (very slightly) better man for just taking that opportunity to shut up about it.
I sometimes don't know what to make of pit tales, and may tend to forget that it is the pit. Over a period of years I've developed a lot of suspicions about how often some kinds of tales of eluding imaginary heat may be mostly fantasies concocted because it is seen by some as conferring a kind of prestige in that world. But I'm not experienced at pit games and even if that wasn't so I don't want to start viewing it as my role in the world to try to sort out all the gambling subculture's posers in order to go around outing them all. Life is too short.
Quote: DrawingDead
There's a recent thread on here about someone's (Dog bless 'em) terrible bad-beat when their trips/no-kicker/no-draw was actually no good (oh my what astounding bad luck!) after limping into a massively multi-way pot with king-rag-off. Because a king is good to have and three of the same thing should win, right? Ugh. For practice I bit my virtual tongue from saying anything on that, too. And even though some advice would've been appropriate for someone posting the question about it, I believe I'm a (very slightly) better man for just taking that opportunity to shut up about it.
.
DD,
I'd be interested in hearing your take on that story, which I think I remember, the guy had trips Kx and got beaten by trips Ax (pair on the board). Just as a learning experience, as a beginner poker player (non-family game, anyway).
Okay, since YOU asked, King-crap is something that just doesn't play well with others. Fold or raise with a weak offsuit king, don't limp to contest a pot with something like five or six or more other limpers.Quote: beachbumbabsDD,
I'd be interested in hearing your take on that story, which I think I remember, the guy had trips Kx and got beaten by trips Ax (pair on the board). Just as a learning experience, as a beginner poker player (non-family game, anyway).
In a multi-way pot with a pair on-board trips is both a vulnerable and obvious holding. So when you're good you get no action, and when you get action you're often both no good and also destined to be staring at nothing but bare felt in front of you in about a minute or so. Much different than a set, which is comprised of a pair in the hole with only one of that rank on board, which often amounts to a (well hidden) license to print money. I was mildly surprised he even had the second best hand. When facing resistance or significant action in a pot with multiple opponents going to the flop, you're usually going to be beat with that unless you hit your kicker... being outkicked, any small pocket pair hitting a card on the board for a full-house, a king with no-kicker is pretty much the definition illustrating the principle of a poker term that I recommend might be worth taking a minute to Google: " reverse implied odds ."
If entering a pot at all with king-rag (king + nothing, being unsuited, unconnected in rank, with a random small card easily outkicked) then raise so you aren't playing with a platoon of others seeing the flop, and you can represent something with a continuation bet when you (usually) have napkins, or be better disguised and relatively less vulnerable when you occasionally flop something like this. That or else, if not raising, I find that I'm happier, healthier, wealthier, snore less and floss better when I simply fold random hands that have no advantage other than containing one single unsuited unconnected card with eyeballs. The outcome of my advice would've been to fold, fold, fold, fold, occasionally raise, fold, fold, and fold pre-flop; then as mis-played after limping-in to a family pot to usually bet the flop and fold to significant resistance post-flop.
In my opinion it wasn't an unlikely bad beat at all. Just righteously beat, with a hand he had no business playing at all in a loose small stakes cash game. But you know my name is not Ivey or Negreanu, and I'm not even pretending to be paying my light bill with da pokerz.
That comes down to reading the players. Some people, you let be and smile(usually timid people). Some you try to be friendly with(they will show you their cards). Some guys, you show them a bluff and then needle them(tilt time). Everybody and every game is different, adding everything possible to your game is +EV. There is no one formula for poker.Quote: DrawingDeadI have to admit that the meaning and significance of "trips" vs. "set" is one that always makes me have to struggle a little to bite my tongue. But I do. Not because I'm concerned about trying to represent myself at the table as being or not being anything in particular, but just to avoid making folks tighten up or leave due to a fear of looking foolish in public.
As someone who is not there on vacation, I try to view part of my role as allowing them to relax and feel entertained, and I think if that is how they're feeling, possibly with some help from the wonderful local institution of complimentary beverage service, then I don't see their potential thoughts on my poker play as a likely problem for me in most cases as long as they don't see me as an unpleasant fellow to be in a pot with. A lot of dealers recognize me anyway, and casual polite chit-chat along the lines of "how's that new house working out, and is the kid starting high-school now?" would tend to give them a little clue that I may possibly have played before, if they were wanting to get one.
There's a recent thread on here about someone's (Dog bless 'em) terrible bad-beat when their trips/no-kicker/no-draw was actually no good (oh my what astounding bad luck!) after limping into a massively multi-way pot with king-rag-off. Because a king is good to have and three of the same thing should win, right? Ugh. For practice I bit my virtual tongue from saying anything on that, too. And even though some advice would've been appropriate for someone posting the question about it, I believe I'm a (very slightly) better man for just taking that opportunity to shut up about it.
I sometimes don't know what to make of pit tales, and may tend to forget that it is the pit. Over a period of years I've developed a lot of suspicions about how often some kinds of tales of eluding imaginary heat may be mostly fantasies concocted because it is seen by some as conferring a kind of prestige in that world. But I'm not experienced at pit games and even if that wasn't so I don't want to start viewing it as my role in the world to try to sort out all the gambling subculture's posers in order to go around outing them all. Life is too short.
And I believe it is ALWAYS inappropriate and -EV for everyone to do so IF you are doing it at a small stakes mostly social game with at least several recreational players who are there primarily for relaxation and a good time. But please by all means do feel free if, instead, you are at a table comprised of testosterone poisoned pro-wannabes, rather than vacationing tourists or people relaxing with a few drinks and social chit-chat with their neighbors on their way home from work.
And please pay no attention whatsoever to the relatively quiet mild-mannered fellow named Dead who is now in the hand in the middle of the testosterone contest after folding the last twenty.
You really think the only reason to tilt someone is because they play better? With all due respect, that's just stupid.Quote: DrawingDeadTilt someone = cause them to play differently. Reasons to do so: they play better than you.
And I believe it is ALWAYS inappropriate and -EV for everyone to do so IF you are doing it at a small stakes mostly social game with at least several recreational players who are there primarily for relaxation and a good time. But please by all means do feel free if, instead, you are at a table comprised of testosterone poisoned pro-wannabes, rather than vacationing tourists or people relaxing with a few drinks and social chit-chat with their neighbors on their way home from work.
And please pay no attention whatsoever to the relatively quiet mild-mannered fellow named Dead who is now in the hand in the middle of the testosterone contest after folding the last twenty.
Most rocks suck and are not better than anyone. Lots of good reasons to tilt them.
A good player can create there own action if needed.
FYI You can tilt them and even make them laugh and have fun.
When I play, I'm not just playing for a social reason, I play for other reasons, make money and have fun.
Not sure were you play or what limits. However, in Vegas I can often turn a 1-3 NL game into a what seems like a 5 10 NL. (lots of fluctuation) 3k winning sessions is not unheard of. In a 10-20 NL or bigger(this is going to be difficult.
Ask Mission, I turned a seemingly bad 1-3 game($300 buy in), he left, in the same exact seat same players, into a 3K win at one point.
No doubt I have also had some fair losses. Agitate someone into calling your all-in SET for 1k, only with his middle pair on the board because he thinks your now bluffing. Watch the board come runner runner to complete his backdoor flush.
I be happy to sow you some Video and pics of the crazy action some time. Friday night 9PM to 6am head to any popular poker place in Vegas.
games can get absolutely crazy.
Better yet, I invite you to play, we should play some poker. At worst you see something a bit different then you are used to.
With all due respect, it is a critical observation on recent amateur theories of taunting & tilting that wasn't invented here by me, and has been made repeatedly and I think pretty persuasively a lot longer by a lot less "stupid" people in the game than either you or me. Best for one to tread lightly on the taunting thing. It isn't what most people want to be around. At all. Some may, most don't. Is that hard to get? So please try to be very judicious in choosing to do it. Do the signs and the inevitable warnings from the staff running the room not do the trick? I have no doubt you may find some of it is fun, and that you believe others will too, and sometimes some may. And in some of the right contexts it may be appropriate. Table of hoody & sunglasses kids in 2/5 at Aria or Ed Hardy douche showing off his studly gamblin' manliness for his girlfriend kept chained to the back of his chair at PHo, fine, no quarrel. A table of convention attendees and vacationers at Mirage or people catching up on neighborhood goings on at GVR, not so fine to do be doing that at all.You say you play 1/3, which is currently spread at only a very limited number of rooms to be a step above both the more typical plain vanilla 1/2NL or the most commonly spread stakes of LHE, and perhaps you are also more skillful and thoughtful at going about it than what most people say they see from some others.Quote: AxelWolfWith all due respect, that's just stupid.
But many of those who engage in it commonly drive away a lot more "action" by tightening games and driving players away, and are generally not observant and insightful enough to be able to recognize that they are doing so. It has been a major problem much discussed as significantly contributing to the shrinking volume of poker being played. (And by the way, I think quite possibly also contributing to the almost complete absence of women in poker rooms. Women are not at all scarce in casinos, and it is really unfortunate for everybody that, for whatever reasons, they are not coming into poker rooms.)
Please hear this: The place for it is usually not in small stakes games comprised mostly of casual recreational players made up of people on vacation or socializing with their neighbors. Maybe those aren't your games, but if they ever are does that concept get through? I do hope so, for everyone's sake.
But, I'm probably just stupid. Though I'm in pretty good company in this "stupid." As is everyone else in so many poker rooms trying to get people who think this way to please knock it off and quit driving away players and breaking their games. Most people at most tables in most rooms do not come into them primarily with the expectation of tilting or being tilted, they are thinking more along the lines of maybe they'll get lucky, and also while they're at it: "cocktails, please!" When and where that is the context, please let them. If those kinds of places which make up most of the 41 rooms still existing in town (down from nearly 60 a few years ago) aren't part of your poker world, fine, have at each other, tilt up a storm to your heart's content.
What limits and games do you play???Quote: DrawingDead.
The most offensive people are the bitter table captains.
As I said, You do need to know who you are dealing with. Obviously there are games this won't be accepted kindly(adapt to the situation). I will admit I have offend a few people on occasion. 90% if the time it as been someone I staked off, sour grapes.
I don't go around calling people donkeys and names. I rarely start any engagement in any situation. I used the word needling.
I'm always smiling and having fun. I never target girls.
Girls don't play poker for many reasons, it really as little to do with what you were saying. It's just not in most girls nature to play poker. Most of them are not interested, You could have the nicest people in the world plaything poker, and girls still wouldn't flock to it.
I tend to think you are a day time player, I really see big difference in the weekend night crowd. I put in 2200 in 1 year, right before the money maker effect, during the day and evening, occasionally spilling over to the next day. I've been known to put in 30 hr sessions.
I play anything from 1-2 NL to 5-10 NL. Rarely 5 -10 NL. 1-3 is all over. I don't play as much as I used to, I just don't enjoy the game as much anymore. I may put in 10 hours every 2 weeks nowadays. More for fun and entertainment, I'll give up some EV and see more hands.
As far as the games slowing down, it has almost nothing to do with bad behavior. Black Friday killed it, add in a bad economy and the sharks getting better.
A side note: Believe what all the POKER experts say, but they need to stick to playing not just speculating. The Hard Rock built a brand new awesome poker room (the best looking for sure and very conformable) What a poker room should be, IMO.
They were doing great soon after they ran something you dislike.
The most successful nights were Tuesday(very rare for poker) big games, small games, the works every table was full. The List a mile long. (tons of chicks to).
Guess why?
Trash Talking Tuesdays. You were allowed to say anything you wanted and it was encouraged (No talking about mothers). The poker room manager got a better offer somewhere.
They hired a female manager. She didn't like TTT and took it away. The room failed soon after and they moved it to a crappy location. That failed, Now they might have a few tables in the pit .
Many Friends/players would call me up every Tuesday and ask me if I was going to TTT, and that they were. It was rare someone would call me up and ask if I was going to the Palms.
Hard Rock failed from day one (I was there), continuing through to today. I'm well aware of their attempt at a unique designated "trash talking" promo. And Hard Rock was a fine place to try it. Glad you liked it while it lasted. I don't know of any reason for anyone to object to someone doing that to see if it works to try to get some people in, knowing that is what it is when they come. The original physical room was beautiful. Probably the most appealing dedicated poker space I've ever seen, so much so that I remarked on a Las Vegas poker forum at the time that I'd be delighted to have them do that to my living room. Unfortunately, they didn't get players in it. They tried many things. They never had much business. They gave up and closed the beautiful expensive space they'd built for it three and a half years ago, in early 2011, making an obviously realistic but sad decision by moving it out to the casino floor, downgrading it to being just part of the pit to eliminate extra overhead costs of a room with no revenue. They rarely have a game, and it is arguable whether they are really still in business as a poker "room" now. Some days they manage to get enough players for a cash game, many days they don't. Try checking on Bravo for yourself later, and see if they get one for a little while. Maybe they will for a little bit; probably not. Their tourneys often don't run. For quite a while it has been the most frequent subject of rumors of them finally formally closing, or that they've already closed it (they haven't). I think they tried pretty much everything they could think of hoping something they threw against the wall would stick, but in my opinion probably never really had a chance, no matter what kind of promotion they tried, with a small-ish hotel in an unfavorable location.
You will continue to do what you prefer to do regardless, and to think it is whatever you like to think of it. This has degenerated quickly into nothing more than a personal pissing match, and one of the participants is almost entirely a creation of your imagination. I really have nothing more to say to you that hasn't been said. Goodbye.
Quote: DrawingDeadOkay, since YOU asked, King-crap is something that just doesn't play well with others. Fold or raise with a weak offsuit king, don't limp to contest a pot with something like five or six or more other limpers.
In a multi-way pot with a pair on-board trips is both a vulnerable and obvious holding. So when you're good you get no action, and when you get action you're often both no good and also destined to be staring at nothing but bare felt in front of you in about a minute or so. Much different than a set, which is comprised of a pair in the hole with only one of that rank on board, which often amounts to a (well hidden) license to print money. I was mildly surprised he even had the second best hand. When facing resistance or significant action in a pot with multiple opponents going to the flop, you're usually going to be beat with that unless you hit your kicker... being outkicked, any small pocket pair hitting a card on the board for a full-house, a king with no-kicker is pretty much the definition illustrating the principle of a poker term that I recommend might be worth taking a minute to Google: " reverse implied odds ."
If entering a pot at all with king-rag (king + nothing, being unsuited, unconnected in rank, with a random small card easily outkicked) then raise so you aren't playing with a platoon of others seeing the flop, and you can represent something with a continuation bet when you (usually) have napkins, or be better disguised and relatively less vulnerable when you occasionally flop something like this. That or else, if not raising, I find that I'm happier, healthier, wealthier, snore less and floss better when I simply fold random hands that have no advantage other than containing one single unsuited unconnected card with eyeballs. The outcome of my advice would've been to fold, fold, fold, fold, occasionally raise, fold, fold, and fold pre-flop; then as mis-played after limping-in to a family pot to usually bet the flop and fold to significant resistance post-flop.
In my opinion it wasn't an unlikely bad beat at all. Just righteously beat, with a hand he had no business playing at all in a loose small stakes cash game. But you know my name is not Ivey or Negreanu, and I'm not even pretending to be paying my light bill with da pokerz.
Nice description, DD. When you limp in with a hand like king-rag and the flop comes king-king-X, you don't have a big hand relative to the board. You actually flopped trash. When you pay a hand like this off, most of the time your opponent is going to show you a king with a better kicker.
I'd edit myself to specify that this is talking about a loose-passive full-ring cash game.Quote: mickeycrimmQuote: DrawingDead...<stuff from me as an opinion about a hand>...
Nice description, DD. When you limp in with a hand like king-rag and the flop comes king-king-X, you don't have a big hand relative to the board. You actually flopped trash. When you pay a hand like this off, most of the time your opponent is going to show you a king with a better kicker.
So, maybe this means I'm not getting whacked for the betting line I posted in another thread. Welcome back from vacation.
My own view is that a relaxed, friendly game is the goal. It took a long time, but the people who run the rooms finally woke up to this. They used to be afraid of losing the business of the guy who berated dealers. Now they mostly realize that the other 8 people on the table are there to have fun, not watch a dealer be humiliated.
They've also cracked down on player on player abuse. These are interesting dynamics because, in either case, someone who is completely flushing their money down the toilet can be given a leash. Even the berated dealer will probably take more satisfaction in the jerk being sent home with empty pockets.
However, if the jerk is not a generous donor, and is fouling the mood of the table, this is a time when needling is a good thing to have in your repertoire. Such characters are very easily manipulated and it only takes some yellow-belt verbal judo to get them to fly off the handle and sent home. Then the whole table will bond over what a jerk he was and your friendly atmosphere is restored.
Otherwise, it depends what you mean by "needle." I don't try to make people feel inferior or intimidated. Maybe if someone is trying to be the table "pro," and messing up the atmosphere, I'll fire off a quip or two, or just wait for an opportunity to say, "Hey, it's 1/3 (or 2/5). We all stink! If anyone here really knew what they were talking about, they'd be in the big games!" Just try to shift the context so their act looks as stupid as it is.
With certain rec players, like nits, you might work in something really subtle and non confrontational that you think might exacerbate a negative frame of mind. I don't really do that sort of thing much because, I play a lot and I find that, like the recreational players, I enjoy the time most when it is spent in a genuinely friendly atmosphere.
I do think it is bad for the game to make players feel intimidated in any way. I remember when I played 3/6 limit live, after learning by playing .25/.50 online. I thought everyone would be able to soul read me and that I'd make a fool of myself against all these pros. And, being 3/6 players, they all thought they were soul-reading pros and expert players, so I was pretty scared. I'd imagine most people feel the same way when they first start. If they have a couple bad experiences, they might decide it's not for them.
I do think all of this is a factor in women playing less, which is a disaster for obvious reasons. Of course, female players have carte blanche to call people idiots and so forth because that's just the way things are. A bit ironic, though.
How do we feel about some places banning "table talk" during hands, even heads up? I don't mind the idea. A pro or "pro" staring at a rec for two minutes and grilling him with all kinds of tell-generating question is THE EPITOME of what I don't want in the game. On certain days, if I'm tired or whatever, it can make me somewhat uncomfortable. So easy to imagine a guy losing a $800 pot in that fashion and saying, "wow, I got eaten alive! I'm never doing that again."
But it's hard to cut that stuff out, but allow people to just banter for fun, which is part of the appeal.
Ill take king rag every time if you promise me K-K-X hit's the flop.Quote: mickeycrimmQuote: DrawingDeadOkay, since YOU asked, King-crap is something that just doesn't play well with others. Fold or raise with a weak offsuit king, don't limp to contest a pot with something like five or six or more other limpers.
In a multi-way pot with a pair on-board trips is both a vulnerable and obvious holding. So when you're good you get no action, and when you get action you're often both no good and also destined to be staring at nothing but bare felt in front of you in about a minute or so. Much different than a set, which is comprised of a pair in the hole with only one of that rank on board, which often amounts to a (well hidden) license to print money. I was mildly surprised he even had the second best hand. When facing resistance or significant action in a pot with multiple opponents going to the flop, you're usually going to be beat with that unless you hit your kicker... being outkicked, any small pocket pair hitting a card on the board for a full-house, a king with no-kicker is pretty much the definition illustrating the principle of a poker term that I recommend might be worth taking a minute to Google: " reverse implied odds ."
If entering a pot at all with king-rag (king + nothing, being unsuited, unconnected in rank, with a random small card easily outkicked) then raise so you aren't playing with a platoon of others seeing the flop, and you can represent something with a continuation bet when you (usually) have napkins, or be better disguised and relatively less vulnerable when you occasionally flop something like this. That or else, if not raising, I find that I'm happier, healthier, wealthier, snore less and floss better when I simply fold random hands that have no advantage other than containing one single unsuited unconnected card with eyeballs. The outcome of my advice would've been to fold, fold, fold, fold, occasionally raise, fold, fold, and fold pre-flop; then as mis-played after limping-in to a family pot to usually bet the flop and fold to significant resistance post-flop.
In my opinion it wasn't an unlikely bad beat at all. Just righteously beat, with a hand he had no business playing at all in a loose small stakes cash game. But you know my name is not Ivey or Negreanu, and I'm not even pretending to be paying my light bill with da pokerz.
Nice description, DD. When you limp in with a hand like king-rag and the flop comes king-king-X, you don't have a big hand relative to the board. You actually flopped trash. When you pay a hand like this off, most of the time your opponent is going to show you a king with a better kicker.
