Is this a common floor manager's ruling
Preflop: A loose player in the early position bet $15. Six callers and I am in the late position, second last to act. I was holding AQ offsuit
Flop: Q72 rainbow
All players before me check. I was getting my chips out and trying to bet $45. The player behind me signaled check before my action. The dealer did not ask or say anything like "Everyone check?" And she immediately wanted to get the turn card out. I tried to stop her and she exposed a portion of the card to seat 1. Then she flipped over the turn card completely, which is a Jack.
The floor came in and told me that since there were a lot of action in the preflop. The Jack must stay there and it is treated as I checked at the flop. I tried to explain to the floor that it was the dealer's mistake but it was useless.
After that, I bet $45 at the turn. One person thought about it and then called.
At the river, it was a 9 and no flush on board. Then that player bet $120 and I folded because I believed that player was holding K 10.
Anyways, I really don't understand why how much chips in the preflop to do with the floor's decision in correcting the last player's mistake checking before my action and the dealer's mistake. As I remember in the similar situation in other casinos, I should be able to bet at the flop and the Jack should be put back to the deck and reshuffled for the turn card. What do you guys think?
Quote: IbeatyouracesMust places let you complete the action on the flop, burn and turn the river next making that the turn card, complete action on that card then reshuffle the original turn card back in and then burn and turn the new river card.
This is the correct ruling. I've heard that you can get stuck with a check if you're in early position and an appreciable number of people act behind you (say three, for example), but I've never seen that actually come up. Either way, the preflop action has absolutely zero-zip-zilch-nada to do with anything. Bad floorman. No treat.
(Not that you asked or anything, but with $195 in the pot on a board of Q72J9 rainbow, there's no way I'm folding AQ for $120. You're most afraid of AA, KK, QJ, K10, but you can beat or chop any other ace, 1010, KJ, or air. For $120, I'd look him up. This really looks like a stab at the pot to me. I'd put him on AK or AJ. Maybe A7 or A2.)
Quote: IbeatyouracesMost places let you complete the action on the flop, burn and turn the river next making that the turn card, complete action on that card then reshuffle the original turn card back in and then burn and turn the new river card.
Just out of curiosity, why would the exposed card not be considered as a candidate for the turn card ?
Quote: MangoJJust out of curiosity, why would the exposed card not be considered as a candidate for the turn card ?
The river card becomes the turn card, that way only one card is jeopardized. The exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.
Quote: DeucekiesFor $120, I'd look him up. This really looks like a stab at the pot to me. I'd put him on AK or AJ. Maybe A7 or A2.)
There were two reasons why I folded. First that player is a tight player. I saw the same move from her about half an hour ago and she had the full house.
Second, the action at this table is kind of loose. People would call you down with any top pair with no kicker. Bluffing is a very bad move at this table.
I eliminated AA, KK and also QJ because she was in the early position and checked after the flop and no re-pop at the turn.
K10 makes perfect sense to me. I had $220 left and she had me covered. She thought about it and called my $45.
Quote: DeucekiesThe exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.
That's what I read from the procedure posted. But why isn't there a shuffle before the turn ? That way the jack could become the turn card as expected in a normal game. If the shuffle is only before the river, the turn is biased towards a non-jack.
However, most card rooms use the Tournament Directors Association rules for tourneys AND cash games, and no longer use Robert's Rules.
http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts/view-official-tda-rules/
Note the most important rule. Rule 1.
That's all well and good, except the 'technical rules' don't cover the situation of the turn (or river) being exposed prematurely.Quote: TDA Rule 1Floor Decisions
Floorpeople must consider the best interest of the game and fairness as top priorities in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson’s decision is final.
Rule 35 confirms that the OP should have been allowed to make his flop bet. But there is nothing that says the card is returned and shuffled in. But the obvious question is, does the OP now make his flop bet knowing what the turn card will be? Seems wrong....
Quote: TDA Rule 35Substantial Action.
Substantial Action is either: A) any two actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds); OR B) any combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, or fold). See also Rules 34 and 38.
Quote: MangoJThat's what I read from the procedure posted. But why isn't there a shuffle before the turn ? That way the jack could become the turn card as expected in a normal game. If the shuffle is only before the river, the turn is biased towards a non-jack.
Because if you shuffle before the turn, then both the turn AND the river are affected by the mishap. The way I described, only one community card is affected, because the card that now comes on the turn was going to be on the board as the river anyway.
Quote: DeucekiesBecause if you shuffle before the turn, then both the turn AND the river are affected by the mishap. The way I described, only one community card is affected, because the card that now comes on the turn was going to be on the board as the river anyway.
In other words, the people who made the rules were more concerned that the same cards come out than providing a fair game.
The real concern here should be that people are making decisions with additional information that they should not have, not that one random event is being replaced with another one.
as long as you have attempted to immediately make clear you had not checked, action is reversed to you, you are allowed to bet, play continues, Exposed turn is reshuffled immediately.
Quote: DeucekiesThe river card becomes the turn card, that way only one card is jeopardized. The exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.
But this way means the player who still has action to complete on the flop knows that jack cant come on the turn, information they should not have.
Our house rule is that card gets put back into the deck and re-shuffled, action completed on the flop, then the turn dealt again.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIn other words, the people who made the rules were more concerned that the same cards come out than providing a fair game.
The real concern here should be that people are making decisions with additional information that they should not have, not that one random event is being replaced with another one.
Exactly this... no one having information they shouldn't, and its still random, are the important factors.
Quote: ShineyShineBut this way means the player who still has action to complete on the flop knows that jack cant come on the turn, information they should not have.
No method of correction is perfect, but the one that changes as little about the hand is possible is the best one, and that's why the method I mentioned is outlined in Robert's Rules of Poker (sec. 5-4), one of the foremost authorities in poker rules, and used almost universally. You may have a house rule to the contrary, but your house is certainly in the minority.
Quote: DeucekiesThe river card becomes the turn card, that way only one card is jeopardized. The exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.
I know that that is considered the correct ruling, but I've always found the logic to be ridiculous. All you're doing, mathemetically, is ensuring the turn card can't show up on the turn. So whatever card is exposed has lower odds of showing that if no mistake had been made. It doesn't matter that the river is being used, as it would have been, since nobody knows what it is.]
I've always felt that the deck should just be re-shuffled including the turn.
Quote: DeucekiesThe river card becomes the turn card, that way only one card is jeopardized. The exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.
I know that that is considered the correct ruling, but I've always found the logic to be ridiculous. All you're doing, mathemetically, is ensuring the turn card can't show up on the turn. So whatever card is exposed has lower odds of showing that if no mistake had been made. It doesn't matter that the river is being used, as it would have been, since nobody knows what it is.]
I've always felt that the deck should just be re-shuffled including the turn.
Quote: DeucekiesNo method of correction is perfect, but the one that changes as little about the hand is possible is the best one, and that's why the method I mentioned is outlined in Robert's Rules of Poker (sec. 5-4), one of the foremost authorities in poker rules, and used almost universally. You may have a house rule to the contrary, but your house is certainly in the minority.
I admit i don't know what the commonly used rule is in the U.S, but i'm pretty sure our house rule isn't in the minority in Europe.
I don't agree that the rule that changes as little about the hand as possible is the best one. The rule that keeps the integrity of the game is the best one. We used to use the rule in this situation of burning a card and then dealing the river card face down, then re-shuffling the turn card, to 'preserve' the natural river card. I never understood this thinking. Nobody knew what the river card was anyway, so why was it so important to 'preserve' that? It's still just a random card. And then obviously the players knew that the exposed card couldnt be the river, information that could be useful to players, the most obvious example being draws.
