Can Big blind sit out when he spots a button straddle?

Quote: AxelWolf

I don't understand who's straddling you're trying to avoid. Button,live or both? I would fear and want to avoid the button straddling. (personally I don't because people suck and miss use it) If the guy is a tricky aggressive player on the button YOU are FK'ed. I would sit out if I were you. Your right it does put an enormous amount of pressure on the blinds.

Finally someone agreed with me! Unfortunately I think you took it too far by claiming straddling may be +EV depending on who you are. Granted, this is an ongoing debate but I do feel like most poker pros feel like straddling is -EV. In my opinion, straddling is only +EV IF YOU ARE COLLUDING. That way the 1BB straddle is shared among 6 players to fuck the blinds over.

But let's back up for a moment, what did you mean "good straddle"? I thought what I described was standard procedure.

To answer your question, I fear button straddle when i'm SB/BB


side comment about colluding. Despite I play this game, I honestly think it's a very badly designed game (texas holdem no limit poker). Popular doesn't mean quality, just like most popular games like monopoly and scrabble are retarded, they're just popular for other reasons. That said, instead of frowning upon the colluders one should frown upon the game for making such thing possible. A perfect game of holdem would be designed so that not only colluders will never have an advantage, but neither will position and especially relative position (AKA sit to the left of the donk). I don't collude because I don't want to lose my +EV source if I'm caught. I have no moral problems against collusion just like i have no problem with position, both are retarded outcomes that stems out of a badly designed game. But I will try my very best to avoid being the victim of collusion, for EV reasons. This is a topic for another day anyway.

Quote: Neutrino

Finally someone agreed with me! Unfortunately I think you took it too far by claiming straddling may be +EV depending on who you are. Granted, this is an ongoing debate but I do feel like most poker pros feel like straddling is -EV. In my opinion, straddling is only +EV IF YOU ARE COLLUDING. That way the 1BB straddle is shared among 6 players to fuck the blinds over.

But let's back up for a moment, what did you mean "good straddle"? I thought what I described was standard procedure.

To answer your question, I fear button straddle when i'm SB/BB


side comment about colluding. Despite I play this game, I honestly think it's a very badly designed game (texas holdem no limit poker). Popular doesn't mean quality, just like most popular games like monopoly and scrabble are retarded, they're just popular for other reasons. That said, instead of frowning upon the colluders one should frown upon the game for making such thing possible. A perfect game of holdem would be designed so that not only colluders will never have an advantage, but neither will position and especially relative position (AKA sit to the left of the donk). I don't collude because I don't want to lose my +EV source if I'm caught. I have no moral problems against collusion just like i have no problem with position, both are retarded outcomes that stems out of a badly designed game. But I will try my very best to avoid being the victim of collusion, for EV reasons. This is a topic for another day anyway.

OMG i cant read all of that and colluding has nothing to do with it.

Straddling on the button where they Let you act last >>NO MATTER WHAT<< raises and re raises(GOOD STRADDLE) this would be +EV if you are a fair player. You are not really blind raising you are forcing the limits to go up with position, on that hand, each time. how can this not be +EV????

A normal Live straddle only gets to act last 1 time and it out of position.

Quote: Neutrino

Nooooooooooo that's exactly the issue. Where I play if button straddles SB starts, and then BB, and then UTG and finally button, therefore position changes.

WOW it took 6 pages for you to finally explain that we are talking about a Mississippi straddle. This to me is showing that you do not fully understand this game. JMHO.

Well my solution to you is, if there is a person that is straddling then sit to his left and double straddle him. That will teach him.

Quote: GWAE

WOW it took 6 pages for you to finally explain that we are talking about a Mississippi straddle. This to me is showing that you do not fully understand this game. JMHO.

Well my solution to you is, if there is a person that is straddling then sit to his left and double straddle him. That will teach him.

I thought a Mississippi straddle was Just A blind raise with last action for any amount in any position. There may be variations for this and some different rules. A few places in Vegas, lets say 1-3 game, they let you put 10 bucks when your on the button.

Quote: AxelWolf

I thought a Mississippi straddle was Just A blind raise with last action for any amount in any position. There may be variations for this and some different rules. A few places in Vegas, lets say 1-3 game, they let you put 10 bucks when your on the button.

I guess really there are a bunch of different straddles. The most common straddle is a live straddle when the UTG makes the straddle. I think that is what we were all assuming when OP started talking about straddle.

from wiki:

Live straddle, The player immediately to the left of the big blind ("under the gun", UTG) may place a live straddle blind bet. The straddle must be the size of a normal raise over the big blind. A straddle is a live bet; the player placing the straddle effectively becomes the "bigger blind". Action begins with the player to the left of the straddle. If action returns to the straddle without a raise, the straddle has the option to raise. (This is part of what makes a straddle different from a sleeper because a sleeper does not have the option to raise if everyone folds or calls around to him.) Some casinos permit the player to the left of a live straddle to re-straddle by placing a blind bet raising the original straddle.[1] Most public cardrooms do not permit more than one re-straddle. Depending on house rules, each re-straddle is often required to be double the previous straddle, so as to limit the number of feasible re-straddles.

Straddling is considered poor long-term strategy by most experts, since the benefit of obtaining last action is more than offset by the cost of making a blind raise. Because straddling has a tendency to enrich the average pot size without a corresponding increase in the blinds (and antes if applicable), players who sit at tables that allow straddling can increase their profits considerably simply by choosing not to straddle themselves.

House rules determine how many live straddles are permitted in a hand. Some cardrooms allow the player to the left of the straddle to place a live "re-straddle" or "double straddle" which must be at least for what would be the minimum raise over the previous straddle - often re-straddles are required to be at least double the previous straddle. Many cardrooms permit only one live straddle - further blind raises may be permitted, but will be treated as sleeper bets without the option to re-raise.

A Mississippi straddle is similar to a live straddle, but instead of being made by the player "under the gun", it can be made by any player, depending on house rules. House rules permitting Mississippi straddles are common in the southern United States. Like a live straddle, a Mississippi straddle must be at least the minimum raise. Action begins with the player to the left of the straddle. If, for example (in a game with $10–25 blinds), the button puts a live $50 on it, the first player to act would be the small blind, followed by the big blind, and so on. If action gets back to the straddle with no raise, the straddle has the option of raising. The player to the left of a Mississippi straddle may re-straddle by placing a blind bet raising the original straddle

lol I am an idiot. I guess the title of the thread said button straddle.

So basically a button straddle IS a Mississippi straddle but some casinos and I think CET in AC only allow a button straddle or a live straddle. So when a button straddle happens in leaves the BB and SB in a horrible position since they are first to act then entire hand instead of last to act on pre flop.

So back on point. OP, if there is one person that always does a button straddle then you should try to sit to the right of them. If you can not get a seat change then you should just tighten up and wait for your spot. You may end up folding more hands but those are probably hands that were costing you money anyways. For example, you limp with a 9-3. The flop comes J-9-2. Are you going to get away from this hand? Probably not and it will cost you money in the long run. With a straddle you are folding the 9-3. Now when you get AA, KK, QQ you are going to limp and wait for the raise and crush it. It is very easy to play against the button straddle but it does suck when you get marginal hands that you would have limped with.

Quote: Neutrino

Is this why professional poker players straddle on TV? since straddle is commonly considered -EV I can't understand why they would do it.

Is poker still on TV?

But seriously, when High Stakes Poker was still on the air, they frequently had discussions about straddling where several players wanted everyone to do it.

Usually there were hold-outs which resulted in nobody doing it.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Is poker still on TV?

But seriously, when High Stakes Poker was still on the air, they frequently had discussions about straddling where several players wanted everyone to do it.

Usually there were hold-outs which resulted in nobody doing it.

yeah it is still on TV. A lot of these pros are addicted to action and a straddle does just that.

Quote: Neutrino

Repost because I'd be very surprised if not even a single person here agree with me that the positional disadvantage may not be worth the straddler's chips EV wise.

Not even remotely close. It's improving his position by 2 spots on the least important betting round.

I'm a poker n00b (only played in home games) but I'm trying to learn the game, mostly to appease my fiance (she likes poker, and is uncomfortable that my blackjack play can potentially get me kicked out of casinos LOL). She keeps saying that I should learn an "honest man's game," i.e. poker.

In researching straddles while reading this thread, i was super confused as the Wikipedia page described what the OP was describing as a "Mississippi straddle," but he was NOT using that term. Now I find out everyone else was having the same confusion, heh.

I've been looking at some of the games offered in the card rooms around here - it appears that most of them only allow straddling by UTG. So that simplifies things a bit.

Getting off topic here, but would like some advice while the poker players are paying attention :). A big problem for me is that I really want to start learning poker with cash low-limit NLHE ($1/$2), as that game is widely written about and very popular in places like Vegas. However, due to the idiotic gambling rules here, cash NLHE games are outlawed. So what a bunch of casinos have started doing is offering spread limit games with ridiculous spreads, so it almost plays like no limit. Whereas a traditional spread limit game might be something like $3/$6, they have $2/$20 and $2/$40 spread limit games with a $40 min buy in. So the small blind is $1, big blind is $2, and you can raise any amount up to $40. You can see how this would kind of play like no limit, except not really if someone has a big stack.

So should I play this game to get a feel for cash NLHE, or should I just focus on something else? There are plenty of NLHE tournaments (not illegal), and a bit of limit Hold 'Em, along with other games (PLO, Omaha 8/b, etc.).

It's not the same to me. A lot of people will make calls when the max they can lose is $40... If it was no limit and you can push your entire stack then it entirely changes the way you play

Quote: AcesAndEights

I'm a poker n00b (only played in home games) but I'm trying to learn the game, mostly to appease my fiance (she likes poker, and is uncomfortable that my blackjack play can potentially get me kicked out of casinos LOL). She keeps saying that I should learn an "honest man's game," aka poker.

In researching straddles while reading this thread, i was super confused as the Wikipedia page described what the OP was describing as a "Mississippi straddle," but he was NOT using that term. Now I find out everyone else was having the same confusion, heh.

I've been looking at some of the games offered in the card rooms around here - it appears that most of them only allow straddling by UTG. So that simplifies things a bit.

Getting off topic here, but would like some advice while the poker players are paying attention :). A big problem for me is that I really want to start learning poker with cash low-limit NLHE ($1/$2), as that game is widely written about and very popular in places like Vegas. However, due to the idiotic gambling rules here, cash NLHE games are outlawed. So what a bunch of casinos have started doing is offering spread limit games with ridiculous spreads, so it almost plays like no limit. Whereas a traditional spread limit game might be something like $3/$6, they have $2/$20 and $2/$40 spread limit games with a $40 min buy in. So the small blind is $1, big blind is $2, and you can raise any amount up to $40. You can see how this would kind of play like no limit, except not really if someone has a big stack.

So should I play this game to get a feel for cash NLHE, or should I just focus on something else? There are plenty of NLHE tournaments (not illegal), and a bit of limit Hold 'Em, along with other games (PLO, Omaha 8/b, etc.).

I take it you are in CA? Spread limit and NLHE are completely different animals. They appear to be similar but the problem with spread limit is you only have to worry about someone raising you $40. In NL you have to worry about someone coming over the top for $200.

Again, tournaments are completely different than a cash game. Chips in a tournament don't represent cash so people are more willing to call you down with air. In a cash game it is real money so people tend to play a little tighter.

Really the only way to practice a NL game is to play NL.

I totally disagree with the previous post.

Low Buy-in tournament play is an excellent way to learn your way around NLHE without finding yourself paying exorbitant amounts for the "lessons". True, cash and tournament play are different animals, however the No Limit nature of the game is the same. Spread game, even a large spread is NOT going to be an effective learning tool.

Now Axel claims this straddle is +EV. I do not agree but then again he's probably better at poker than me. Anyone else want to chime in and state their opinion on whether this straddle is +EV or not?

Quote: GWAE

I take it you are in CA? Spread limit and NLHE are completely different animals. They appear to be similar but the problem with spread limit is you only have to worry about someone raising you $40. In NL you have to worry about someone coming over the top for $200.

Again, tournaments are completely different than a cash game. Chips in a tournament don't represent cash so people are more willing to call you down with air. In a cash game it is real money so people tend to play a little tighter.

Really the only way to practice a NL game is to play NL.

Washington.

Quote: Alembert

I totally disagree with the previous post.

Low Buy-in tournament play is an excellent way to learn your way around NLHE without finding yourself paying exorbitant amounts for the "lessons". True, cash and tournament play are different animals, however the No Limit nature of the game is the same. Spread game, even a large spread is NOT going to be an effective learning tool.

Like I said, I'm a beginner. But it's easy to see how cash games and tournaments are almost completely different. Yeah, I could get a feel for NLHE (the mechanics of the game, betting, conventions, etc.) by playing tournaments, but I'm pretty sure there's a point very early on where the optimal strategies start to diverge a lot.

There are some $25 buy-in tournaments nightly at a local card room; I may start there instead of cash games. Plenty of tournaments in Vegas as well. Plus I already started reading Snyder's book on low-limit tournaments.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Like I said, I'm a beginner. But it's easy to see how cash games and tournaments are almost completely different. Yeah, I could get a feel for NLHE (the mechanics of the game, betting, conventions, etc.) by playing tournaments, but I'm pretty sure there's a point very early on where the optimal strategies start to diverge a lot.

There are some $25 buy-in tournaments nightly at a local card room; I may start there instead of cash games. Plenty of tournaments in Vegas as well. Plus I already started reading Snyder's book on low-limit tournaments.

Really, I just want to start with one poker format and really focus on becoming good at that format. Later on, after I'm confident that I've reached break-even or better on that format, I would expect to branch out. But while I'm getting my feet under me I wouldn't want the distraction of multiple formats. I guess I should probably pick a format that I can play locally, which excludes cash NLHE.

The problem with tournaments is that the variance is so much bigger. I'm guessing that it will take me longer to establish whether I'm playing with an edge or not if I play, say, one or two $25 tournaments per week, as opposed to one or two nights of cash games per week.

my own mini-argument for why straddling can be -EV is short stackers will clean your clock with 10-15BB all ins

BUTTON STRADDLING
Button straddling is not common however, there are 5 or 6 places in Vegas that allow it. Some do not because its and unfair advantage to a good player.

I will give and example. I dount there is very much information on the button straddle and people seemed to be confused what it is. Some call it a Mississippi straddle(it's not) (Very good poker topic)

Golden Nugget had/has a $1/$2 No Limit Holdem the button can put $10 on the button. Everyone is obligated to fold raise or call the $10. When the pre flop action gets to the button they skip him even if it's been raised and re-raised. then the blinds have to act and so on, then the button can act last. (Ultimate last action)

IMO its forcing the game to be a 5-10 (short staked)no limit game when you have the best position.

EDIT: Imagine a game where you Always get the button.

Quote: Neutrino

Now Axel claims this straddle is +EV. I do not agree but then again he's probably better at poker than me. Anyone else want to chime in and state their opinion on whether this straddle is +EV or not?

LET'S MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND, SO OTHERS DON'T MISS UNDERSTAND Neutrino:"Axel claims this straddle is +EV." Someone will call me an idiot if they believe that comment. >> I'm only talking about the BUTTON straddle that gives you ultimate last action.<<< NOT A REGULAR STRADDLE, I agree a normal straddle is normally -EV.

However, I might use a regular straddle to liven up the game or come in early if i sit sown in in a juicy game, in the the straddle position, and I have to pay 2 units to come in anyways. I mize well put the extra unit in to get last action, especially if I don't want to wait to come in.

If everyone agrees to straddle I will do it as well. If some prick is being a hold out just because he wants to be a jerk, then I won't let him get the advantage of everyone doing it but him. If some short stack little old lady can't afford it, I wont hold that against her and will go with the Majority.


I would like you to explain how being able to ask the dealer to raise the limits every time you have the button is not +EV ? This is essentially what the button straddle is doing everyone is forced to call or raise your straddle. If everyone folds you make the blinds if everyone calls you have position EVERY round. If people raise to much you can fold.

I can give a ton of reasons why it is good and very few why it is not.

Quote: AxelWolf

I will give and example. I dount there is very much information on the button straddle and people seemed to be confused what it is. Some call it a Mississippi straddle(it's not) (Very good poker topic)

If they allow a button straddle but then make the SB act first pre flop then it is essentially a MS straddle with only the button being allowed to do it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Golden Nugget had/has a $1/$2 No Limit Holdem the button can put $10 on the button. Everyone is obligated to fold raise or call the $10. When the pre flop action gets to the button they skip him even if it's been raised and re-raised. then the blinds have to act and so on, then the button can act last. (Ultimate last action)

IMO its forcing the game to be a 5-10 (short staked)no limit game when you have the best position.

I have never played it like this. I am not sure how I feel about it. At least as the button in a MS straddle you are getting the position pre flop. Doing it this way doesn't help that but it is forcing people to play a larger game pre flop.

Quote: AxelWolf

I can give a ton of reasons why it is good and very few why it is not.

People who straddle are generally really bad at it. Quite often I see the following.

UTG straddles to $5.00. It comes back around to him and he bumps it to $15. Next round he bets $5 to a $75 pot. Of course everyone is going to make the call and now you have 6 people seeing the turn unless a smart button raises it which they never do. People are just so bad around here.

Quote: GWAE

If they allow a button straddle but then make the SB act first pre flop then it is essentially a MS straddle with only the button being allowed to do it.



I have never played it like this. I am not sure how I feel about it. At least as the button in a MS straddle you are getting the position pre flop. Doing it this way doesn't help that but it is forcing people to play a larger game pre flop.

I don't want to get caught up on what its called. I just know every room in Vegas that does this, the house, dealers, floor and almost all the players call it a BUTTON straddle.

I have heard various definitions of a Mississippi straddle. What do you call it when you can Straddle for any amount on any position and get last action? (other then dumb)

TI used to let players do this. Guys would jam $100-$200 pre flop in bad position in a 1/2 or 3 NL game. All you could do is wait for a descent hand and pray.

yeah I think we can agree that in different parts of the country/world use different terms for similar things.

I have also never seen someone straddle for $200 in a 1/2. If there are players doing this I would love to be at their table.

Quote: AxelWolf

BUTTON STRADDLING
Button straddling is not common however, there are 5 or 6 places in Vegas that allow it. Some do not because its and unfair advantage to a good player.

I will give and example. I dount there is very much information on the button straddle and people seemed to be confused what it is. Some call it a Mississippi straddle(it's not) (Very good poker topic)

Golden Nugget had/has a $1/$2 No Limit Holdem the button can put $10 on the button. Everyone is obligated to fold raise or call the $10. When the pre flop action gets to the button they skip him even if it's been raised and re-raised. then the blinds have to act and so on, then the button can act last. (Ultimate last action)

IMO its forcing the game to be a 5-10 (short staked)no limit game when you have the best position.

EDIT: Imagine a game where you Always get the button.

I disagree that this is +EV for the button straddler. Note that it is NOT like a 5-10 game because the blinds are still only putting in $1 and $2. They can afford to play tight against you. Remember that it is the blinds that generate the action. A 9-player game where you have to put in $10 out of the $13 blind money is not a good situation for you, regardless of position.

Also, I've never seen it where the button could put up $10 in a 1/2 game. I've only seen $4.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I disagree that this is +EV for the button straddler. Note that it is NOT like a 5-10 game because the blinds are still only putting in $1 and $2. They can afford to play tight against you. Remember that it is the blinds that generate the action. A 9-player game where you have to put in $10 out of the $13 blind money is not a good situation for you, regardless of position.

Also, I've never seen it where the button could put up $10 in a 1/2 game. I've only seen $4.

You would be wrong. Go play a few games where they are doing this. The action gets crazy. People like to limp, you now have control.

If they fold the $1 and $3 all the time waiting for a nice hand this is simple to figure out. People will also play good hands scared and fail to raise properly letting you check with flush and str8 hands or catch a nice flop then they wont back down. Or they will push to hard with AA and KK you gather nice information from this.I have lots more reasons, I cant get into them now, I have to go soon.

Quote: AxelWolf

You would be wrong. Go play a few games where they are doing this. The action gets crazy. People like to limp, you now have control.

If they fold the $1 and $3 all the time waiting for a nice hand this is simple to figure out. People will also play good hands scared and fail to raise properly letting you check with flush and str8 hands or catch a nice flop then they wont back down. Or they will push to hard with AA and KK you gather nice information from this.I have lots more reasons, I cant get into them now, I have to go soon.

Alright similar to my question to Axiom earlier, it's time I get to ask you about your poker expertise/credentials. I mean no offense, just want to know.

Quote: AxelWolf

You would be wrong. Go play a few games where they are doing this. The action gets crazy. People like to limp, you now have control.

If they fold the $1 and $3 all the time waiting for a nice hand this is simple to figure out. People will also play good hands scared and fail to raise properly letting you check with flush and str8 hands or catch a nice flop then they wont back down. Or they will push to hard with AA and KK you gather nice information from this.I have lots more reasons, I cant get into them now, I have to go soon.

Ok, if people are going to play poorly, a lot of things are +EV.

I meant, it is -EV against similarly-skilled opposition. Obviously if they are all terrible and you can outplay them in any situation then you can get away with a lot.

Quote: AxelWolf

I don't want to get caught up on what its called. I just know every room in Vegas that does this, the house, dealers, floor and almost all the players call it a BUTTON straddle.

I have heard various definitions of a Mississippi straddle. What do you call it when you can Straddle for any amount on any position and get last action? (other then dumb)

TI used to let players do this. Guys would jam $100-$200 pre flop in bad position in a 1/2 or 3 NL game. All you could do is wait for a descent hand and pray.

A couple of months before they had UTG straddling in AC, a guy blind bet 240 all in because he was tilted and seemed to be upset straddle wasnt available yet. I has kings! Guy to my left aces. No fun lol

Anyway I will now give my argument on why straddling on the button is not the same as playing higher limits with absolute position.

Because you can't fold.

What are you going to do when you look at your straddle and see 72o? Would you have committed chips to that hand if this were a higher limit game?

Quote: Neutrino

Anyway I will now give my argument on why straddling on the button is not the same as playing higher limits with absolute position.

Because you can't fold.

What are you going to do when you look at your straddle and see 72o? Would you have committed chips to that hand if this were a higher limit game?

I am not saying that I like straddling, but you still have position so if you know your opponents well then you could possibly make it work.

If we are going to play the what if game, what if the flop is 772?

Quote: Neutrino

Anyway I will now give my argument on why straddling on the button is not the same as playing higher limits with absolute position.

Because you can't fold.

What are you going to do when you look at your straddle and see 72o? Would you have committed chips to that hand if this were a higher limit game?

Or what happens when you look down and have AA?

You are going to check and hope you get a good flop, or hope everyone is weak on the flop then steal the pot. You are acting as if you are blind raising a big amount or something. You get all the information needed each round.

Its simple, if you are a weak player, play ABC poker and cant be creative, this is not the play for you. If you are a fair player and have some imagination this is a positive play.

Most casinos don't allow this because it kills the fish and breaks games. For a good player, this is to strong and should be disallowed for the sake of the fish.

Look what its doing to you, you want to sit out blinds when this happens. If its a bad play why are you wanting to sit out hands?

Quote: GWAE

I am not saying that I like straddling, but you still have position so if you know your opponents well then you could possibly make it work.

If we are going to play the what if game, what if the flop is 772?

I tried this a bit in a small game ($1-$2 NL). It was really the best possible scenario because the players at that level tend not to be very good, and the money is not meaningful to me at those stakes so I was certainly not playing "scared money". I was able to play in the way that I felt was optimal without any risk of the fear of losing clouding my judgement.

In this place the straddle was double the big blind; it could not be any other amount. So, SB would post 1, BB would post 2, I would post 4 on the button, and the SB would act first pre-flop.

I found that most players were really, really passive and weak, and would limp but would then not know how to play against a raise. They particularly did not know how to play a raised pot post-flop out of position, and I was able to steamroll the table. If a few people limped I would generally bet another $15 to $25 with anything decently playable (suited almost-connectors, big cards, pairs, etc. I'd do it with not-so-playable hands sometimes too). I was basing my raise size on the number of limpers, not on the strength of my hand (I would bet more with a bigger pot) so I wasn't giving much information away. It was generally pretty obvious when they had something so I was able to steal the pot every time they didn't have anything, which, of course, is most of the time. And, of course, I can make a hand too!

However, when a few decent players sat down, things changed. These guys are smart enough to come in with a raise, not a limp, with any playable hand (not just big hands). So when they raise pre-flop, I really don't know if I am facing 78s or AA. This puts me in a bad spot if I don't have a playable hand -- I would often just fold pre-flop if my hand wasn't playable. Even if it was playable, it's a lot harder to play post-flop when you are not the aggressor, even in position (it's easy to play when you flop a hand, or even a good draw, but it is hard to play a missed hand as the non-aggressor).

So, I felt that against weak / passive / bad players it was probably +EV. I could also have done pretty well by just raising most of my buttons, but the pots would have been smaller (since the weak limpers are putting in 1/2 as much before I raise). However, against players with any skill whatsoever, I felt that the advantage quickly vanished, and it was probably costing me money, since I was getting into tangles with the worst hand too often.

Now, I am not the best poker player in the world (although I was clearly one of the better players out of this group). It's possible that a more skilled player would be able to get more value out of it, but I still feel that the value comes from being better than your opponents. Against equally-skilled players, this is probably -EV.

If you are playing at a game where everyone is equally skilled then you are a fool anyways because the money is just going down the drop. If there are only a few good players then this is +EV.

I still think it gives you an advantage over same skilled players. I don't know how this cold be proven or dis-proven. I doubt you can run a sim on this.

I got more interested this morning and started looking for information. I seen a small poll, overwhelmingly people think its +EV. I can say that most of the people talking about this(not many) will conclude it is +EV. You get the feeling that the good players think its +EV while the bad players do not.

Most of the time people are just complaining they don't like the rule because they can't see flops cheap or they never get to play their blinds.

Look at it in a game that's 3 handed.

I also think when the average fair player is facing a straddle, he is more likely to define his good hands and not toy around. Especially if they see you don't auto raise every time you are the straddler.

As i said I see a fair amount of reasons why this is good, but very few why its not.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

In this place the straddle was double the big blind; it could not be any other amount. So, SB would post 1, BB would post 2, I would post 4 on the button, and the SB would act first pre-flop.

Dumb poker n00b question time :).

Does the SB continue to act first after the flop, or does it revert to the standard order (with UTG acting first) for the post-flop betting rounds?

Quote: AcesAndEights

Dumb poker n00b question time :).

Does the SB continue to act first after the flop, or does it revert to the standard order (with UTG acting first) for the post-flop betting rounds?

SB acting first after the flop is standard....

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

SB acting first after the flop is standard....

Ha. You can see how much poker I have played. So, moving on then :p.

Same question but for a different kind of straddle. If UTG straddles (what Wikipedia refers to as a "live straddle," although I don't know if that terminology is universal), do they continue to act first in the post-flop betting rounds, or does it revert to the standard order (which would be SB acting first, as any idiot knows).

Quote: AcesAndEights

Ha. You can see how much poker I have played. So, moving on then :p.

Same question but for a different kind of straddle. If UTG straddles (what Wikipedia refers to as a "live straddle," although I don't know if that terminology is universal), do they continue to act first in the post-flop betting rounds, or does it revert to the standard order (which would be SB acting first, as any idiot knows).

"Live" just means that that the person making the straddle can raise if it's called around to himiccjl3. This is different from a regular bet or raise, where if everyone else just calls, the betting round is over.

The betting order on post-flop betting round always starts with the person to the left of the button, which is the small blind in this case. Straddles don't change that.

Button straddles are strange. UTG straddles fit into the flow of the game a lot better; they are basically just a "bigger blind".