Poker Dealer Cheating: Question

This may appear to be a very naive question but somebody please tell me "how", or more specifically, "why" a dealer in a poker game would cheat? Certainly, I could see where a dealer/house rigging a game in a game where the player is betting against the house (i.e.: craps, blackjack, roulette, etc). However, in poker, the game is "player versus player" and the house earns its rake no matter who wins. Perhaps a dealer could deal off the bottom of the deck in an attempt to "help" a certain person to win but, there are so many other variables in play surrounding the process that it makes this highly unlikely, at least from my perspective. What would be the benefit to dealer cheating: split winnings? Bigger tip?

This is a real serious question and, as always, I appreciate the any/all input from the members here. It helps me better manage our charitable gambling events. Thanks.

Collusion?

Quote: Mosca

Collusion?

I mean, collusion? Really? There are so many eyes on the table and no real benefits.

Riva. Get a copy of Darwin ortiz's book gambling scams. It's got several chapters on the hows and whys of handheld card cheating and its required reading for game protection

Collusion with a subset of players is the main worry I would have. This kind of collusion is probably not going to effect the hold for your event too much, but it would be a huge problem if that information ever got out. Regarding the hold, it could be bad for you if they clean out all the other players quickly, it could be good for you if you can still keep the tables full and the cheating keeps them saturated with action.

Out of curiosity, what kinds of games do you guys spread? What's the rake setup?

I would not only worry about collusion (which is a big concern anyway) but I would also be worried about rake theft. Do you balance the amount of hands played with the amount of money in the box? Do you keep any type of tally?
How do you make sure the dealers aren't palming chips that is meant for the rake pot?

If dealers palm $1 per pot that adds up to about $30 per hour (approximately), perhaps even more if you have a quick dealer. Also do they accept tips on the game? Would be easy to mix rake chips with tips.

What about stealing from the pot? That is pretty easy too, consealing chips with cards.......

There are more wasy of cheating/theft on a poker table than you may think :)

Quote: Riva

I mean, collusion? Really? There are so many eyes on the table and no real benefits.

According to Frank Wallace in his book POKER A GUARANTEED INCOME FOR LIFE, dealer cheating use to be a pretty common occurence. He devoted several chapters to it although he originally wrote it in 1968 with an update in 1998, so probably not applicable so much today. The typical scam was to flash cards to professionals that they were colluding with.

On a personal anecdote, I know of one dealer at a local card room here that was recently fired because he was skimming the house drop. It wasn't for a lot of money so it's hard to believe someone would risk their job. But this would be far more likely scenario to worry about than collusion these days I would think.

Quote: Riva

I mean, collusion? Really? There are so many eyes on the table and no real benefits.

No real benefits? People like money... what other benefit do you need?

It's not even always about money. A lot of people like to do things just because. Either they like the challenge or just flaunting that they can do it.

Quote: paisiello

According to Frank Wallace in his book POKER A GUARANTEED INCOME FOR LIFE, dealer cheating use to be a pretty common occurence. He devoted several chapters to it although he originally wrote it in 1968 with an update in 1998, so probably not applicable so much today. The typical scam was to flash cards to professionals that they were colluding with..

The eye in the sky might be too high tech today but the technique you are referring to was called "location." The dealer flashed mucked cards to the agent, usually sitting in the second or third hole, then located those cards to where they would come on the flop. The agent knew what was coming on the flop so....

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

No real benefits? People like money... what other benefit do you need?

Certainly valid. The reason I bring this subject up is that here in Michigan, the State Gaming Control Board is recommending changes to the charitable gaming laws that will have a serious impact on all non-profits and charitable organizations that conduct charitable gaming events. These regulations have been put forward in response to the abuse and violations that have occurred in the "poker rooms" throughout the State. These violations have caused dozens of poker rooms to be padlocked. Unfortunately, the actions of a few bad apples will have an impact on every organization that plays by the rules, poker and/or traditional gaming.

One of the regulations being proposed is that the organization conducting a charitable gaming event to submit to the Board the name of all dealers for an event along with a criminal background check, in advance. The criminal background check will supposedly identify certain types of crimes that would then disqualify a person form being able to work as a dealer. FYI..for the most part, the poker room here in Michigan provide the room, equipment/tables/chips and dealers in exchange for a percentage of the charity's take. The charity merely obtains the required licenses and has a few of it's people at the poker room to represent the organization. It has turned in to a multimillion dollar industry for both charities and equally, the poker rooms.

The organization that I happen to be a volunteer at does not network with poker rooms whatsoever however, we do offer poker as one game of many at our gaming fundraising events throughout the year. Since the State considers all charitable gaming to be one and the same, poker and traditional gaming, any/all organizations that conduct charitable gaming will be forced to comply with this regulation if it is passed.

This is troublesome for organizations like mine that rely almost exclusively on volunteers to work an event, including dealers. First, there is a cost associated with running a criminal background check. Second, many people will not volunteer to be a dealer if this is a requirement of the assignment. They will refuse to volunteer, not because they have anything to hide but rather, most will see this requirement as both officious as well as overly intrusive. As a result, organizations like mine would have to hire dealers which is a significant expenses that erodes, if not eliminates, any profit earned from a charitable gaming event.

I'm not so naive as to believe that dealers will cheat, particularly in games where the player is wagering against the house (craps, blackjack, roulette, etc. However, in poker, players are betting against each other and the house is merely taking its rake. To me, that is apples and oranges. Regrettably, the State does not see it that way.

tl;dr

Quote: Riva

Unfortunately, the actions of a few bad apples will have an impact on every organization that plays by the rules

Happens everywhere... Complicated accounting rules. Speed limits etc. Security at airports. ID cards. IRS controls. All instances of burdening the wide honest public because a minority is not ready to play-by-the-rules.

Now in most cases, I think it's also a problem of the authorities being not smart enough to find another parade than restraints and controls!

Riva I don't think u have anything to worry about. Every crooked dealer that got ran out of Nevada came to Montana.

It's extremely profitable for the dealer to collude with one or more players. A criminal background check would be probably worthwhile if you play for games of 2/5 NL or higher, and I don't believe they are very expensive. A team of two players plus a skilled mechanic could easily make 1-2k in his down. I disagree that most people without a criminal past would refuse rather than submit to a licensing requirement.

I don't think that's very likely though, for a lot of reasons. Most dangerous would be someone with sticky fingers taking money out of the pots. There was actually a dealer in Bobby's room who was taking 1k chips out of pots, someone caught him when they had an odd number of chips after one of the pots and got suspicious. It can really add up if someone is taking $5 several times per hour.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Riva I don't think u have anything to worry about. Every crooked dealer that got ran out of Nevada came to Montana.

In 1990 if you had Las Vegas anywhere on your resume, you could get hired as a supervisor in Colorado.

On a side note, dealers are encouraged to cheat here in Colorado. At many casino's a dealer can double as a prop. First time I saw a guy playing in a casino he had dealt at the day before, I then knew why he looked at hands players mucked at the river.

Quote: Buzzard

I then knew why he looked at hands players mucked at the river.

LOL.....this dose not help much.

He was discreet. I do not think anyone else even noticed him doing it. You don't think what a winning player mucked doesn't help ?
Then just show me your cards every time time you stay till the river and see if I have a better idea of how to win against you. I mean most poker players, especially week days are regulars.

Quote: Buzzard

He was discreet. I do not think anyone else even noticed him doing it. You don't think what a winning player mucked doesn't help ?
Then just show me your cards every time time you stay till the river and see if I have a better idea of how to win against you. I mean most poker players, especially week days are regulars.

I'm not saying it dose not help at all. Its not worth cheating or what ever you call it. You can see exactly how people play each hand on the WSOP. Its not a huge advantage you should have a good gauge on how that player is playing anyways.

Quote: Buzzard

He was discreet. I do not think anyone else even noticed him doing it. You don't think what a winning player mucked doesn't help ?
Then just show me your cards every time time you stay till the river and see if I have a better idea of how to win against you. I mean most poker players, especially week days are regulars.

I feel that is definately cheating. I ran into this. There was a great dealer. Playfull, chatted alot, kept things light. Some players near him would show him their cards. Very friendly. I tipped him well. But he would peek at mucked cards I sent in. He was also allowed to play at the tables when he was off. To me ths was a conflict. I discussed privately with his boss, and explained he was terrific but I didnt want t give him any advantage when I went up against him. He stopped.

In a Mike Caro book I have just read, he says he regrets putting his poker knowledge in book form so people can use it against him. Whether you see hands of players on TV or read their books, or see hands at the table....if you are smart you can file those away and use it later down the road.

whether someone is capable of remembering or processing the info divulged through knowing the mucked cards is not my problem to determine. I just dont want anyone to see my cards unless the rules say I have to show, or I decide on my own to show.

Quote: LarryS

I feel that is definately cheating. I ran into this. There was a great dealer. Playfull, chatted alot, kept things light. Some players near him would show him their cards. Very friendly. I tipped him well. But he would peek at mucked cards I sent in. He was also allowed to play at the tables when he was off. To me ths was a conflict. I discussed privately with his boss, and explained he was terrific but I didnt want t give him any advantage when I went up against him. He stopped.

In a Mike Caro book I have just read, he says he regrets putting his poker knowledge in book form so people can use it against him. Whether you see hands of players on TV or read their books, or see hands at the table....if you are smart you can file those away and use it later down the road.

whether someone is capable of remembering or processing the info divulged through knowing the mucked cards is not my problem to determine. I just dont want anyone to see my cards unless the rules say I have to show, or I decide on my own to show.

Not sure what limits you are playing, if its 1-2 or 2-5 I would doubt people are gaining to much information if your showing cards. You can probably show a lot of selective hands to people at the table and use that against them.

What value do you think you would gain, if you seen 70% of hands a particular a tricky player played? What if a guy is playing a large percent of hands anyways?

I think you are mixing up showing poker hands and giving away the keys to his play and poker in general. MC Talks about there being profitability in showing hands quite often here is one http://www.poker1.com/archives/5987/should-you-show-your-hands-in-poker