Betting when small blind
Quote: paisielloThat you like to limp in with garbage hands maybe?
Are you saying that every time you check-fold on the flop, you had a garbage hand?
Quote: paisielloI'll try and remember that when I take all yout chips...
True. I can't fold bottom fold pair under any circumstances. I don't think you know thing one about cash poker.
Quote: Lemieux66I don't think you know thing one about cash poker.
Which is more than I can say for you.
Quote: Lemieux66Umm, other people will pay you a good bit of the time if you hit.
Umm, more often they won't to justify calling every time. And as stated previously they have as much chance as hitting a long shot as you do and with 5-4s you will be on the losing end most of the time.
You have to be deluded to think this.
Quote: endermikeLimit or or no limit? Or half the bet one way and half the other? I don't remember the OP stating that.
It's no limit obviously. If the op comes on and says he was talking about limit I'll still take the bet. But it's irrelevant now. The guy that talks about taking everybody's money was doing just that. Talk.
Quote: anonimussTell you what. You talk about taking everybody's money, take mine. We'll put the op on the top poker site (we all know what it is, lots of pro players). We'll ask do you fold, raise, or call. No A xx%, B xx%, C xx% for balance. Simple fold raise or call. I'll give you fold and raise and I'll take call. Only posters registered more than one month count so you don't have to worry about me having friends join just to skew the results. We'll check back after 2 weeks and add up the results. First we both escrow $1K each with the Wizard here. Bets between adults without juice are legal so he should go along. (2) $500 postal money orders, leave the purchaser and payee blank. All you have to do is accept and I'll send my $1K first so we don't have to go through any "You send your money first." "No, you send your money first." When he says he has mine you can send yours and we'll make the post.
I don't understand what you are proposing. A vote?
Quote: anonimussCopying the op to 2+2 forums and tallying the resulting posts.
Oh. Meh. I am a fan of calling here most of the time but I don't know that a poll settles anything.
Quote: paisielloWhich is more than I can say for you.
Umm, I'm a successful cash game player for the last 5 years. I'm a respected AC grinder reg.
Quote: anonimussI live in Toms River now. Vernon before. I've played AC quite a bit until about 18 months ago.
Nice. I'm here nearly every week.
Quote: anonimussFunny thing is I haven't been to AC since I moved to Toms River. I used to play 7C Stud and some NLHE at the Trop and LHE and NLHE at the Borg. Minimal scattered play everywhere else.
I mostly play at borgata, but I know the actual playing of poker at Trop is far better. Complete wackos at night. Borg keeps me in there with comp rooms, buffet, and match play lol
Quote: djatcSome of you guys are thinking of +EV only. What if you are in a 1/2 NL game with a bunch of fish, are you going to open your range, or tighten up? If there's a 6 way limpfest and you're on the SB, why wouldn't you see a cheap flop and get it in vs fish? Unless you're playing with a bunch of old rocks there's more money to be made playing much wider.
I respectfully agree with you sir.
Quote: paisielloUmm, are you a professional player that maximizes their primary source of income?
Absolutely. Clearly, you do not. Do you actually play poker anywhere? Or do you just spout math and theory without calculating how others play? I mean DAMN if 4 people are just limping 6 way pots there have to be some fish in there. Fish who will pay you at least SOME money!
Quote: paisielloMaybe a shark or two as well..?
I am going off the books I've read and the professional players I know personally. They just wouldn't play the way you play. I mean you are the type of player I want to play against: easy to bust for playing predictably bad or marginal hands.
There it is guys. THERE IT IS. Mystery solved. He's not going off of personal experience playing with the random low level idiots we do. He's going on books and theory that do not factor in other people, just the specific math of that one play. It's bad but I can see it now.
Quote: anonimussEquity calc:
Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board:
Equity Win Tie Hand Range
20.5277% 20.514% 0.0137% [ 5h4h ]
21.616% 21.6023% 0.0137% [ AdKd ]
17.4284% 17.4147% 0.0137% [ TcTs ]
18.7448% 18.7311% 0.0137% [ QcJc ]
13.0933% 13.0796% 0.0137% [ 7c7s ]
8.5899% 8.5762% 0.0137% [ 9d8d ]
Well you're supposed to be limping the AK suited in this spot OBV! Lol
Quote: endermikeI am no pro, but I would call myself an avid player (home games, online, and live rooms). Table image is important. However, I tend to play a rather tight game. I would call in this scenario and almost always fold on the flop. However, I would have no problem showing that I played those cards, and would happily advertise that that I played (checking) those cards in hope that it encourages calls later on when I slow play.
Never EVER show a big fold. You have completely leveled yourself by doing that IE in another big hand someone bets you big do they have it or are they bluffing knowing you can make big folds? It's a terrible spot.
Quote: Lemieux66Never EVER show a big fold. You have completely leveled yourself by doing that IE in another big hand someone bets you big do they have it or are they bluffing knowing you can make big folds? It's a terrible spot.
Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not showing a big fold. I wouldn't show these cards with any sort of made hand. I'm showing when I was able to check down the whole way (very rare). Another possible show would be after a weak bluff on the turn (6 into the 12 in the pot, probably). I want people to forget I was discounted in and think that I'm playing weak cards all the time.
Quote: paisielloLots to respond to so forgive me if I don't respond to everything.
As for my personal background which some of you were inquiring about, I am an avid player, but not a professional, with only a few years experience. So most of you probably have much more knowledge and experience than me. I do read quite a bit on the subject and I personally know a number of respected professionals with decades of experience.
Unless I am completely misinterpreting what I have read and been told, what most have you been saying contradicts my understanding on how to play a NL cash game. Calling the small blind with a weak hand seems something a fish would do.
I guess I proposed this scenario before but didnt get a response:
4, 5, A rainbow
You bet the pot and one of the limpers shoves. Do you call? They might only have A,J or maybe they have A,4 or maybe they flopped a set or maybe they have 6,7. Do you risk your entire stack on this?
You are essentially susceptible to the same implied odds that your opponents are. In order for implied odds to really work you need to be sure that your hand is the nuts and that your opponent is going to pay you off 100% of the time. These are big assumptions in a No Limit game.
I would put it to the self-proclaimed professionals on this thread, how important do you think is table image?
IMO the guy there is betting his top pair top kicker which would put him on AQ or AJ. Still hard to believe as he was limping early. That could mean he is tight. All going to depend on the table. That, for me at least is why you will play 54 suited in that spot so that you can see what type of action your hand gets. You can always lay it down if you are uncomfortable or the person shoving has a strong table image. He may just be a fish trying to buy the pot.
There are 100's of scenarios that can play out in each hand of NK hold'em. The question should be with what starting hand can you improve most with minimal EXTRA investment. If I was holding 7,2 off the hand would be in the muck but with 54 suited you have the opportunity to see a flop and play the players, not necessarily the game. Leading out with a pot sized bet here is just about expected anyway otherwise you will look weak and get raised on the back end.
Should we vote?
How many for calling in the OP's post?
How many for folding in the OP's post?
Quote: Lemieux66Calling for sure.
Calling here too
Quote: endermikeSorry, I was unclear. I'm not showing a big fold. I wouldn't show these cards with any sort of made hand. I'm showing when I was able to check down the whole way (very rare). Another possible show would be after a weak bluff on the turn (6 into the 12 in the pot, probably). I want people to forget I was discounted in and think that I'm playing weak cards all the time.
That's an interesting move. It's a rare one though. Usually people don't show a bluff unless it's a major one.
Personally, I try to never show my cards. Good or bad. I know it's impossible, but in a perfect world I would rather everyone have a completely neutral opinion of me. Not a fish, not a nit, not a rock, etc because now I have to adjust my play based on my views of their opinions of me.
Quote: Lemieux66That's an interesting move. It's a rare one though. Usually people don't show a bluff unless it's a major one.
Personally, I try to never show my cards. Good or bad. I know it's impossible, but in a perfect world I would rather everyone have a completely neutral opinion of me. Not a fish, not a nit, not a rock, etc because now I have to adjust my play based on my views of their opinions of me.
Yeah, it is something has developed over time. I look rather young (I'm carded almost everywhere) and almost always am having a drink at the table. I have found that developing a "partying fratboy" look has gotten me a lot more action than my best "neutral" look (probably means I may have some tells). Since I came to cards from a "tight is right" mentality, anyone watching the number of folds I was making got a very tight image. So, getting action on moves was always a problem and I never have been great at picking up opponent weakness to bluff against. On limit (no fold'em hold'em) play it never was really a problem but when I moved to PL and NL, I was always treading water until I won a race against somebody. Now that I show a bit more looseness at cheap prices I can get more callers who I have crushed.
Quote: endermikeYeah, it is something has developed over time. I look rather young (I'm carded almost everywhere) and almost always am having a drink at the table. I have found that developing a "partying fratboy" look has gotten me a lot more action than my best "neutral" look (probably means I may have some tells). Since I came to cards from a "tight is right" mentality, anyone watching the number of folds I was making got a very tight image. So, getting action on moves was always a problem and I never have been great at picking up opponent weakness to bluff against. On limit (no fold'em hold'em) play it never was really a problem but when I moved to PL and NL, I was always treading water until I won a race against somebody. Now that I show a bit more looseness at cheap prices I can get more callers who I have crushed.
With your old image I would bluff and three bet somewhat more frequently. Not too much. Have a good lie ready if they ask what you had. Be sincere sounding! Lol
Quote: BuzzardBluffing in low limits is just wonderful. Except that you ALWAYS get a caller.
Not at all true. You can win small pots a ton with well timed logical bluffs.
Quote: Tomspur...Never play at Station casinos such as GVR or Red Rock. ...
GVR was out of control early on. People got tired of 2/5 and made it 5/10, then they got tired of 5/10...
Quote: TomspurIMO the guy there is betting his top pair top kicker which would put him on AQ or AJ. Still hard to believe as he was limping early.
Yes, it is hard to believe.
From my own relatively limited experience, I have busted many players playing their two low pair with a bigger two pair or a set. They just can't throw their hand away.
Another scenario:
Same flop but instead of shoving all-in, they call.
J on the turn. Maybe you fire another barrel? Ok, they call again.
Q on the river. Maybe this time you check? They shove. Do you still call with your bottom two pair? If your answer is yes then all you have done is given your opponent the same implied odds that was your excuse to play this weak hand to begin with.
I dont think the question is which hand you can improve most with minimal investment. Rather I think it's what hand is going to be more profitable in the long run and help you build a strong table image.
Quote: socksGVR was out of control early on. People got tired of 2/5 and made it 5/10, then they got tired of 5/10...
Yeah they had a great room until the old boys moved in, sitting on the 2/4 limit games to suck out on the bad beat. There are still some great NL games there but they are tight. If you want to learn how to play a tight/tight game, GVR is your place :0)
Quote: paisielloYes, it is hard to believe.
From my own relatively limited experience, I have busted many players playing their two low pair with a bigger two pair or a set. They just can't throw their hand away.
Another scenario:
Same flop but instead of shoving all-in, they call.
J on the turn. Maybe you fire another barrel? Ok, they call again.
Q on the river. Maybe this time you check? They shove. Do you still call with your bottom two pair? If your answer is yes then all you have done is given your opponent the same implied odds that was your excuse to play this weak hand to begin with.
I dont think the question is which hand you can improve most with minimal investment. Rather I think it's what hand is going to be more profitable in the long run.
But I guess we can all agree that it entirely depends on the table you play and mainly your oponents playing style. I would always call in the OP's scenario, always. This is how i play. You don't even need to have a wide range to call in this spot imo.
If you fold in this spot you are a tight player who is doing nothing wrong but not totally exploring the possibilities of beating the table. You want to win and not just limit your -EV plays right?
Quote: TomspurYou want to win and not just limit your -EV plays right?
Isn't there a correlation?
Quote: paisielloIsn't there a correlation?
In my opinion there can never be a strong enough correlation between losing the extra 1 unit compared with the potential upside when you hit. There is no way to quantify that in my mind so I guess it comes down to personal preference as to how you play and how you sum up the playing style of your opponents?
If you re a good enough player in lets say a 1-2 no limit game You can probably limp in with a very large percentage of hand and positions and crush the game.
I don't think its good to have a particular table image all the time this could backfire on you, and you may not get you some extra value on certain hands. I want them have no clue how I might play. I would prefer them to be confused each time I do something no matter when or what I play.
You should be thinking how you can win each and every hand you hold, I didn't say to play each hand but you should be limiting yourself to ABC hands . You should be able to win pots with out even knowing yourself what hand you hold.
Quote: Lemieux66Not at all true. You can win small pots a ton with well timed logical bluffs.
Not in the low limit games I play in. At least one of the calling stations will stay past the river.
" A thinking player should put you on a strong hand."
Quote: Lemieux66If you limp, which I like, you are never bluffing. Hoping that lottery ticket wins.
Which is what all the limpers at the table are doing and hoping for as well. Just worse implied odds is the only difference.
I'll concede that maybe it's just possible your strategy is right and that, as was suggested previously, the kinds of players you find in AC at the tables you play at are weak enough to overvalue their hands. I haven't found that to be the case in general for me personally. Maybe I just want to avoid having to guess what another player has when he shoves all in on me and my bottom two pair. From that perspective maybe I am exploitable and it's costing me some money.
Quote: paisielloWhich is what all the limpers at the table are doing and hoping for as well. Just worse implied odds is the only difference.
I'll concede that maybe it's just possible your strategy is right and that, as was suggested previously, the kinds of players you find in AC at the tables you play at are weak enough to overvalue their hands. I haven't found that to be the case in general for me personally. Maybe I just want to avoid having to guess what another player has when he shoves all in on me and my bottom two pair. From that perspective maybe I am exploitable and it's costing me some money.
Two pair or trips bad kicker is a weird spot to be in here. I mean you'll take it, but you're really aiming what flopping a monster or at least a monster draw. I'd lead out with two pair here and reassess depending on opponents actions.
Quote: Lemieux66...or at least a monster draw.
OK, now you are hoping to flop a draw as well? What does that do to your implied odds?
Quote: paisielloOK, now you are hoping to flop a draw as well? What does that do to your implied odds?
Implied odds aren't a thought here. It's about seeing a cheap card on the turn. If the pot is small, they have to bet something proportional to the pot. You can call this with a big draw. If they bomb it, decision time. If you were to raise, you inflated a pot that you want to see cards cheaply with here.
NOPE! you *SHOULD* be ALWAYS be thinking how to win with ANY hand. I didn't say, you should play every hand every time. But, you should never pass up any hand, if you can find a way to win with the hand and make it profitable. I don't care what hand it is.Quote: paisiello
I think you meant to say "shouldn't"?
I think this is true for the reason I stated above: having a strong table image.
NO limit Poker is not only about the Value of a particular hand. You SHOULD be able to play 7, 2 as if it was pocket aces and win hands with it. Knowing when and how to do this, IS THE KEY. If you don't know how to this, then you are right you shouldn't even think of playing weak hand and ABC poker is the best fit for you. You can toss out you 4 5 ss from early, if you can't play poker well. Someone who feels 4 5 in the OP, is a for sure fold most of the time, then i think they are not the best of players and I want them at my table.
You need to be creative but not stupid.
Playing ABC poker might let you eek out a SMALL win with small fluctuation. Its hard to play ABC poker when everyone at the table is playing different. I'm mainly talking about 1-2 NL and 2-5 NL. where the players are mainly weak players.
Obviously there are different ways to beat poker. You will find the most successful players are very creative. They uses a balance of ABC poker with Crazy unpredictable poker.
You must have seem my offer it still stands with both the bet and the challenge.
Quote: Lemieux66Actually, the most likely positive scenario is flopping a draw. That's why I want to see it cheaply or if I want to be bold yet risky I bomb it preflop and try to take the limpers and blinds money.
If that is what you are trying to get then haven't you reduced your original implied pot odds by a factor of:
(10.54%)/(5.2%) *(31.3%) = 63.4% ?
(assuming you see the river)
