Going all in

I was playing online poker. I drew a pair of Jacks. I raised pre flop and was called by two others. The flop comes and it is 2, 8, 7 unsuited. Well one guy goes all in then I called and the third guy called. Well they both had AK unsuited. I thought not bad. Sure enough a King on the turn and then nothing and I get bounced and lose like $114. Did I play this correctly?

How much did you raise pre-flop?

Depends on a lot of things...was this a tourney or a cash game?..If a tourney, where were the blinds in relation to your stack. If you were short stacked then yeah going all in is a reasonable move there....If not; probably a tad impatient.

There are half a dozen other questions I'd have too if you want a serious answer. For example:
What were the stakes and buy-ins?...How long were you and the other players in the game?...How much did you raise pre-flop? What was your position in the hand relative to the button and other players?. Where on-line were you playing? any chance you were cheated? I could go on but you get the idea hopefully.

Ok it was a cash game I bought in for a $100. Most, if not all, stacks were between $50 and $150. It was $.50 and $1 blinds with no limit. I raised $10 pre flop. I have an account at 5dimes and I have been playing sports with them for almost three years with no problems.

Ok assuming the game is on the up and up. I think going all in was probably an over aggressive play. My thinking being that since one of your opponents went all in ahead of you post flop with rags on the board. I put him on a high pair, or a low pair that just turned into a set. Either way an all in move with a pair of hooks is risky. As you found out. Don't get me wrong it's not an awful play....but it's a pretty aggressive one. Just one man's opinion. I'm assuming a full table too.

Doesn't matter what they held. 2 all ins with that flops ! Did you think they were both bluffing after calling your pre-flop raise? DUH

This same thing happened to me in a meatspace tournament, the difference being:
1. as small blind, a few players call before I make a moderate raise 2x bb.
2. Big Blind then raises to what would be about 1/3 of my total stack. I am a little below avg stack for this stage in tournament having lost several hands in weird ways.
3. table folds around to me.
4. At this time, I decide that he's got no pair and maybe just a high kicker ace and go all in since I feel committed, ready to win coin toss.
5. He calls. Sure enough, AK. So. it's a coin flip with my fish hooks.
6. Flop through turn are blanks. King on the river.
7. I played the preflop coin flip figuring my show of strength could make him fold non-pair...but no, people love their AK.

What I should have done:
A. Folded because his show of strength was greater than what I had via gap principle. His raise could have easily been KK level strength.
B. I don't always go all in but was frustrated, normally I would have folded or, more sometimes call to see moderately expensive flop, and raise big on flop or turn when I had top pair before he sucked out. The point being, he would have been more likely to fold on turn when he did not hit hand and a raise on my part made his pot odds to crappy to go on for one of his 6 outs.

Did you play it correctly? For all you knew at that point, your opponent hit set. You should have folded.
Of course, their play was crappy, going all in with mere AK with only 2 cards to go but you didn't have that information. You were not in a tournament, so there was no reason to even sweat it, the blinds aren't going up.
You did not go all in pre-flop so you were not committed to the pot aside from ego.

However, you were playing low stakes internet poker in which people act crazier. For all you knew, some guy called your raise with 78 and hit two pair (or if he had pocket 8's). Anyway, tons of things to consider, you made $114 gamble and the other guy sucked out.
Finally, your outs were
JJ, and runner runner 9-10. So, say about 10 outs, post flop that gives you 40% chance of improving hand. Other guy had only 6 outs for about 24% chance.

No background on how you or both other players had been playing until then? You were first to act pre flop? What position were you in, what position were each of the other players in?

Only raising $10 gave each of your opponents implied pot odds of 10:1 which is enough for a set. So a call may not have been the correct move here technically. But on the other hand if their image was very loose and aggressive and they had made similar moves before then it could have been a good call.

In retrospect of course they only had about a 16% chance of beating you so it was a bad move on both of their parts and you should have tripled up.

Quote: UTHfan

This same thing happened to me in a meatspace tournament...

Your scenario is probably not relevant here other than you happened to have the same cards.

Quote: UTHfan

Finally, your outs were
JJ, and runner runner 9-10. So, say about 10 outs, post flop that gives you 40% chance of improving hand. Other guy had only 6 outs for about 24% chance.

You misread the OP. The total number of outs for both of the opponents are 4 (A,A,K,K) so with two cards to come that gives them about a 16% chance to win.

The total number of outs for the OP is irrelevant since he was ahead already. If his opponents actually had something like a set or two pair then his outs are only two (J,J) which gives him about an 8% chance of improving. Runner, runner for a straight might add another 1.5% at most to the probability of improving his hand.

I could have easily folded the JJ with an all in ahead of me.

If you said first action raised something like $12 and you shoved all in then I would be ok with that.

However think of it another way. If the 1st person said, hey I have AK and are shoving all in. Would you call that with JJ, is it worth a coin flip for your stack?

Thanks. I am fairly new to tournament or cash game poker. I don't want it to be an expensive tutorial, however I want to learn to play as well as possible. The problem with really low limit games is everyone just stays to see the flop and its just who ends up with better cards like a house banked game.

Quote: GWAE

I could have easily folded the JJ with an all in ahead of me.

If you said first action raised something like $12 and you shoved all in then I would be ok with that.

However think of it another way. If the 1st person said, hey I have AK and are shoving all in. Would you call that with JJ, is it worth a coin flip for your stack?

The first action after the flop, was all-in. If he showed me AK (not told me), I'd absolutely call with JJ. That's not a coin flip. If it was just me and him, I'd be about a 3-1 favorite. With another opponent all in with the same holding, it's even better.

I think the decision to fold or call after the flop was tough. The all in by the first opponent screams KK, QQ, but if he plays loose, or has recently taken a beat, I think a call can be justified.

In the end, you got your money in way ahead, so regardless of the result, you played it right in my opinion.

He had just taken a bad loss to me. I beat him with a flush versus his three tens. He did normally play pretty loose and I though he was trying to bluff me into getting some of his money back. Now the third guy I wasn't sure about.

If it was just me and him, I'd be about a 3-1 favorite.

Wish you played more at my table. AK will win about 42% of the time against JJ.

Sure, and some people just can't get away from their AK no matter what. The guy behind you most likely did not have AA, KK, QQ or you would have most likely seen a three bet pre-flop. So unless he flopped a set, I think you are ahead in most cases. I would't sweat it, sometimes the cards don't go your way.

It's always good to evaluate options and different play strategies. The same cards with different players, different stakes, and different history can absolutely change the decision to call or fold post flop.

Quote: Buzzard

If it was just me and him, I'd be about a 3-1 favorite.

Wish you played more at my table. AK will win about 42% of the time against JJ.

[Edit] After the flop the JJ is about 3-1 which is where the money got in.

Quote: MidwestAP

[Edit] After the flop the JJ is about 3-1 which is where the money got in.

Actually better than 3:1. Closer to 6:1 because there are only 4 cards left in the deck that will kill him.

Why did you raise to $10 preflop? Do you raise every hand to $10. If not, you're probably giving away a lot of information. When someone raises different amounts and then makes a big raise, I either think "he doesn't want to get his AA's cracked.", OR "He doesn't want to have to play JJ's postflop." If this is the case, try not to give away info with your preflop raising strategy.

In this case, you didn't give yourself any maneuvering room, and I think your postflop play was probably correct given your preflop play. If you've played with these people before, you should probably also have notes on them tell you that they will do crazy things, in which case, you should probably be willing to put in 100 blinds on an overpair or you will get run over. I mean, their play in this hand is nuts, at the least, the second caller's play is nuts. You might could come up with a set and/or frequency of hands for which the first person's play is not. You are in a good game, got your money in good against bad player(s?), and shouldn't be questioning your play here.

Someone suggested that 10:1 is sufficient odds to set mine, but if you're raising AK/AQs here and occasionally non- premium hands, and not always c-betting, it makes it really tricky to get odds at 10-1.

I am not a pro poker player, but I think you made the right move. You made a good bet, it just lost.

Now, what the hell is a "meatspace tournament", UTHfan? That's a new bit of lingo to me. lol...

Quote: MidwestAP

[Edit] After the flop the JJ is about 3-1 which is where the money got in.

I agree. This scenario had 2 callers, both with AK.

2 callers of a pre-flop raise. Then after missing the flop, both go all in against the pre-flop raiser ?

Please tell me you immediately re-bought into that table.

But first, I hope you told them how you tried to move them off AK, and congratulated them on their win.

Hard to do with a straight face, but it can be done. LOL

I know, people still like sharing beats.

I know it part of the game, but I can't believe 2 people went all in with just an AK unsuited and no hope for flush or straight. On another hand with these relatively small blinds, how do you play a great opening hand like AA. If you go all in most likely everyone will fold and I will win like $1, which has happened. if I gently enter the wagering to try and build the pot up, I risk the flop seer catching a blind lucky good hand, which happened to me, and killing me.

I know it part of the game, but I can't believe 2 people went all in with just an AK unsuited and no hope for flush or straight. On another hand with these relatively small blinds, how do you play a great opening hand like AA. If you go all in most likely everyone will fold and I will win like $1, which has happened. if I gently enter the wagering to try and build the pot up, I risk the flop seer catching a blind lucky good hand, which happened to me, and killing me.

Quote: hook3670

Thanks. I am fairly new to tournament or cash game poker. I don't want it to be an expensive tutorial, however I want to learn to play as well as possible. The problem with really low limit games is everyone just stays to see the flop and its just who ends up with better cards like a house banked game.

This is actually the root of the problem in your case. You can almost throw out advanced poker analysis in a low limit game. People care less about the money and more about "having fun". Which makes their play unpredictable.

Quote: hook3670

I know it part of the game, but I can't believe 2 people went all in with just an AK unsuited and no hope for flush or straight. On another hand with these relatively small blinds, how do you play a great opening hand like AA. If you go all in most likely everyone will fold and I will win like $1, which has happened. if I gently enter the wagering to try and build the pot up, I risk the flop seer catching a blind lucky good hand, which happened to me, and killing me.

I agree with previous post, at low limits, too many people stay in on marginal hands (and that's being generous). You need to observe how the other players have reacted on previous hands with pre-flop raises (in a $0.50/$1.00 NL game) to $5, $10, $15, etc. At some tables, a $5 pre-flop raise might get everybody to fold, at other tables some players see $20 as an introduction to get involved. With AA, you want to minimize the number of players going to the flop with you. I really don't want to go up against more than one other player, so I have to figure out what that the amount is that will accomplish that. This is one of several reasons why it's so important to watch the action closely even when you aren't involved in the hand.

Quote: paisiello

Quote: MidwestAP

[Edit] After the flop the JJ is about 3-1 which is where the money got in.

Actually better than 3:1. Closer to 6:1 because there are only 4 cards left in the deck that will kill him.

Agreed, I was still considering the situation that if the first player had shown AK when he when he went all in, that the JJ was an easy call knowing the OP was a 3-1 favorite against one player with AK. It was made even better when the player behind also called off his chips with the same hand.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Now, what the hell is a "meatspace tournament", UTHfan? That's a new bit of lingo to me. lol...

"meatspace" is the opposite of cyberspace, i.e. the internet. So in this case, "meatspace tournament" just means a regular old in-person tournament in a card room or casino.

I think it comes mostly from cyberpunk fiction.

Quote: socks

Someone suggested that 10:1 is sufficient odds to set mine, but if you're raising AK/AQs here and occasionally non- premium hands, and not always c-betting, it makes it really tricky to get odds at 10-1.

That's true. The question becomes then how to you account for implied odds? Do you assume barring any indication otherwise that your opponent will commit 100% of his stack maybe 50% of the time? So then you need something more like 20:1 implied odds?

I have been told by very experienced players that you should never call a bet with implied odds unless you are 100% sure that you will have the nuts if you hit your outs AND that you are 100% sure your opponent will call you when you do. But I am not sure how you can be so sure.

Quote: paisiello

...So then you need something more like 20:1 implied odds?

I have been told by very experienced players that you should never call a bet with implied odds unless you are 100% sure that you will have the nuts if you hit your outs AND that you are 100% sure your opponent will call you when you do. But I am not sure how you can be so sure.

You can't be sure. You just want to have reason to believe that the times you're right will make up for the misses. iirc, I tended towards 15:1. In the best situations, 10-1 might be enough, but it's stretching it. From the other side, I tried to sure my betting frequencies made it hard for someone to get the best of me if they were aiming for 10-1, therefore I didn't worry about paying off at that rate postflop. To be fair, NL wasn't my best game, but I was a small winner at the 2/5 level several years ago and have a fair amount of balancing strategy in other formats as well.

edit: should say "2/5 live" since I rarely played NL online. I also played 5/10 some, though not enough to be confident in a sample.

Quote: GWAE

However think of it another way. If the 1st person said, hey I have AK and are shoving all in. Would you call that with JJ, is it worth a coin flip for your stack?

The all in move was on the flop. I would call in a heartbeat with JJ if I knew the guy had AK. He's only got 6 outs on the turn and river.

Quote: socks

Why did you raise to $10 preflop? Do you raise every hand to $10. If not, you're probably giving away a lot of information. When someone raises different amounts and then makes a big raise, I either think "he doesn't want to get his AA's cracked.", OR "He doesn't want to have to play JJ's postflop." If this is the case, try not to give away info with your preflop raising strategy.

In this case, you didn't give yourself any maneuvering room, and I think your postflop play was probably correct given your preflop play. If you've played with these people before, you should probably also have notes on them tell you that they will do crazy things, in which case, you should probably be willing to put in 100 blinds on an overpair or you will get run over. I mean, their play in this hand is nuts, at the least, the second caller's play is nuts. You might could come up with a set and/or frequency of hands for which the first person's play is not. You are in a good game, got your money in good against bad player(s?), and shouldn't be questioning your play here.

Someone suggested that 10:1 is sufficient odds to set mine, but if you're raising AK/AQs here and occasionally non- premium hands, and not always c-betting, it makes it really tricky to get odds at 10-1.

When someone raises ten times the big blind I usually put them on "scared queens or jacks."

Quote: MidwestAP

Sure, and some people just can't get away from their AK no matter what.

The old time no limit players like Doyle Brunson used to call AK "walking back to Houston."

"Hey! Where's Joe?"
"He's walking back to Houston."
"How come?"
"He kept overplaying them AK's."

Quote: hook3670

I know it part of the game, but I can't believe 2 people went all in with just an AK unsuited and no hope for flush or straight. On another hand with these relatively small blinds, how do you play a great opening hand like AA. If you go all in most likely everyone will fold and I will win like $1, which has happened. if I gently enter the wagering to try and build the pot up, I risk the flop seer catching a blind lucky good hand, which happened to me, and killing me.

A lot depends on your stack size. With a stack like 200 big blinds AA usually wins a small pot or loses a big pot. With 50 big blinds you would have all your chips in by the turn and no tough decisions to make on the river.

True enough, I need to really learn the nuances of the game a lot better. I had a little over 100 big blinds and lost a big pot to someone flop looking with a 9,5 unsuited who caught a full house!

Quote: hook3670

I know it part of the game, but I can't believe 2 people went all in with just an AK unsuited and no hope for flush or straight. On another hand with these relatively small blinds, how do you play a great opening hand like AA. If you go all in most likely everyone will fold and I will win like $1, which has happened. if I gently enter the wagering to try and build the pot up, I risk the flop seer catching a blind lucky good hand, which happened to me, and killing me.

In Super System Brunson said he much preferred to play AK than AA because it is so much easier to get away from. With AK he would raise preflop, and c-bet the flop, but if got called or raised he was through putting money in the pot. Not so easy to do with AA.

Sure, I'll go all in pre flop. It beats a lot of ace high hands, plus smaller connectors.

well, the point is to get value. if you have good cards you get money in the pot and from there on in try to get good pot odds.
Going all in with preflop monster hands is a good way to quickly win a small pot consisting of blinds.
When you get into a preflop reraise battle with another player, then you start to consider your one on one odds against another suitably high hand.
But your monsters can be broken by people who stay in cheaply. It's a balance you have to consider.
Anyway, good preflop raise with JJ. The all-in move was either:
stupid flailing; or
great bluffing.
Since they managed to suck it out on the river, they were brilliant.
But if they had whiffed, your call would have been brilliant.
However, considering the all in (and the near 1:2 pot odds if my math is correct, paying $100 to win the 220 in the pot) after the flop, you may have just saved that 100 for a future play because it looked as if someone hit their set. If someone had two pair or trips at that point, you only had a few outs. And you were going against two players, so your odds were worse because of it.