Poker rules question
Poll
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16 members have voted
Part of the reason I want opinions is because, in the league, we try to keep it friendly, so we tend to let some of the rules slide a little in the interest of keeping it friendly. Then again, we do not allow string bets, and follow the oversize chip rule.
In both of the cases below, we ask the player what their intention is. But in a casino, asking for clarification isn't an option. What's your decision?
Case 1 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets raised to $6. A re-raise would be a minimum of $10. A player who has not put any chips in yet puts in two $5 chips without saying anything. Is it a call or a raise?
Case 2 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets limped around to the small blind who puts in a $5 chip without saying anything, and leaves the $1 chip there. Is it a call or a raise?
In #2, the player put in two chips when only one was needed to make the call, in this case I think it should be ruled a raise.
I agree.Quote: MidwestAPIn #1, the player is putting in the minimum number of oversize chips to call the current bet. Without announcing 'raise' I believe it should be ruled a call, not a raise.
I disagree. The player DID put in the minimum oversized chip - one $5 chip. He merely forgot to remove the $1 small blind chip.Quote: MidwestAPIn #2, the player put in two chips when only one was needed to make the call, in this case I think it should be ruled a raise.
Case 2, has a little more room for interpertation. It would be a raise if I had to decide. If the player took back the $1 chip, it would be considered a call. If the player put a green chip without saying anything, is there a question on intent?
I have also seen raises in a 1/2 game where the big blind raise to $12 and cut out a this amount and places it in the middle of the pot and takes back the $2. As a dealer, you want to keep the integrity of the game without being too over bearing. Also, you want to keep the game as fair as possible. In these cases, the player is not doing anything to get an edge.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThis is gonna sound weird coming from me, particularly since I'm a dealer for a pub poker league who has picked up the nickname, "Rules Guru."
Part of the reason I want opinions is because, in the league, we try to keep it friendly, so we tend to let some of the rules slide a little in the interest of keeping it friendly. Then again, we do not allow string bets, and follow the oversize chip rule.
In both of the cases below, we ask the player what their intention is. But in a casino, asking for clarification isn't an option. What's your decision?
Case 1 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets raised to $6. A re-raise would be a minimum of $10. A player who has not put any chips in yet puts in two $5 chips without saying anything. Is it a call or a raise?
This is universally, unequivocally a call.
Quote: DJTeddyBearCase 2 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets limped around to the small blind who puts in a $5 chip without saying anything, and leaves the $1 chip there. Is it a call or a raise?
I would rule this a call. He needs to announce raise when putting in a single oversized chip. Doesn't matter if he has a white chip he COULD have called with or not. It's still a call without saying the word raise. The fact that most experienced players would "take back" the white chip doesn't change the fact that he put one single oversized chip in the pot, and didn't announce raise, so it is a call.
In practice, this happens in the casino and the dealers usually ask "call or raise" -- which is ridiculous, because if you have to ask it is a call. However, no one really cares at small stakes to object.
Quote: sodawaterThis is universally, unequivocally a call..
Not sure why you would say this but in SoCal this would always be considered a raise unless the table were to unanimously allow the player to declare it as a call retroactively.
In SoCal this is called the "One Chip Rule": if only one chip is used to bet and nothing is said then it is considered a call by default.Quote: sodawaterI would rule this a call. He needs to announce raise when putting in a single oversized chip. Doesn't matter if he has a white chip he COULD have called with or not. It's still a call without saying the word raise.
Quote: DJTeddyBearCase 1 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets raised to $6. A re-raise would be a minimum of $10. A player who has not put any chips in yet puts in two $5 chips without saying anything. Is it a call or a raise?
Case 2 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets limped around to the small blind who puts in a $5 chip without saying anything, and leaves the $1 chip there. Is it a call or a raise?
I'll take a left-field approach to these, to see what others think...
Case ONE: Look at the chip-stack of the $10 Player... if there are Whites (presumed $1 chips) in it, then the Two Reds are a Raise. If no white chips, then the bet is $6 with $4 returned.
Case TWO: Look at the chip-stack of the $5 +$1 Player, if there are no white chips availible, its a call with $4 returned, if there are white chips availible, the bet stands as a $1 Call + $4 raise.
In both cases the chip-stack did the talkin', either the Player had no chips to properly bet the intent, or the chips represent the intended wager having the neccesary chips to wager properly.
IMHO these are fair and firm rules.
It's a call both times and any dealer who disagrees has seen his last tip from me and most other players. It may indeed be unintentional, but it is a classic move. Next better reraises and the " caller " say, I only called !
Sorry 98, but as Buzz attempted to say, it is nobody's responsibility to inventory any player's stack. The entire point of the Oversize Chip Rule means that, regardless of what a player has, a single large chip is a call - even if the player has a mountain of whites!Quote: 98ClubsI'll take a left-field approach to these, to see what others think...
Case ONE: Look at the chip-stack of the $10 Player... if there are Whites (presumed $1 chips) in it, then the Two Reds are a Raise. If no white chips, then the bet is $6 with $4 returned.
Case TWO: Look at the chip-stack of the $5 +$1 Player, if there are no white chips availible, its a call with $4 returned, if there are white chips availible, the bet stands as a $1 Call + $4 raise.
In both cases the chip-stack did the talkin', either the Player had no chips to properly bet the intent, or the chips represent the intended wager having the neccesary chips to wager properly.
IMHO these are fair and firm rules.
For the record, I believe that both are calls, but thanks to everyone who thinks otherwise. It confirms that there is plenty of confusion in this matter.
I don't know where you are playing poker at but that's just hogwash. Vegas poker rooms have a very long, long leash.Quote: BuzzardBoth are a call all day long in any place I ever played. And if a player made this move more than once, he would probably be asked to leave. And not politely !
Either the player tried making a move again or he doesn't understand the rules and should come back when his actions will not be disruptive to the game.
This is not a big deal the way he described it, I see it all the time. I have yet to see a player use this as a move. Its only a few chips more. Usually the dealer just corrects the bet and they move on. Occasionally someone will bitch and claim it was a call or raise depending on the the ruling made.Quote: BuzzardYou assumed that the dealer would be asking that player to leave. I would explain the rules politely to a player, but if it happened again I would be the one asking him to leave. Politely of course and even willing to step outside to go into further detail if necessary.
Either the player tried making a move again or he doesn't understand the rules and should come back when his actions will not be disruptive to the game.
Quote: BuzzardBoth are a call all day long in any place I ever played. And if a player made this move more than once, he would probably be asked to leave. And not politely !
In a competitive market throwing players out on such flimsy grounds will kill your games. Tough talking players will also send them down the street to your competition.
Heck, it's only money!Quote: BuzzardHell, it's only a game.
Quote: 98ClubsQuote: DJTeddyBearCase 1 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets raised to $6. A re-raise would be a minimum of $10. A player who has not put any chips in yet puts in two $5 chips without saying anything. Is it a call or a raise?
Case 2 -
The blinds are $1/$2. It gets limped around to the small blind who puts in a $5 chip without saying anything, and leaves the $1 chip there. Is it a call or a raise?
I'll take a left-field approach to these, to see what others think...
Case ONE: Look at the chip-stack of the $10 Player... if there are Whites (presumed $1 chips) in it, then the Two Reds are a Raise. If no white chips, then the bet is $6 with $4 returned.
Case TWO: Look at the chip-stack of the $5 +$1 Player, if there are no white chips availible, its a call with $4 returned, if there are white chips availible, the bet stands as a $1 Call + $4 raise..
But then what does the server coming back with his drink get tipped with, if not the whites he was reserving for her?
