Another (pretty sick) hand

Hey guys, I just played in a hand I'd like to share, mostly b/c it was pretty sick, partly b/c I wanna see what people think of my preflop call and my raise on the flop. I may go post on 2+2, b/c there are more (presumably better) poker players. But there are a lot of jokesters and wannabe players too, so I thought I'd post here first.

The table's filled with strong players even though we're playing 1/2. Quite a few of them are relatively loose, and the strongest players are all to my right. They all have big stacks, I'm sitting at $280/140 BB.

I'm in the BB, we're 9 handed. The only detail I don't remember is if the preflop raiser is UTG +2 or +3, but I'm pretty sure he's +2. I also don't remember his exact stack size, but I wanna call it around $150.

Anyway Pre flop raiser raises up to 12 (in this game, the standard raise changes player to player, some do 7, some do around 15. The point being 10 isn't super strong.)

He gets called from the button (villain,) who is super huge stacked and likes to play a good amount of hands, but plays them strong. A seemingly solid, strong player. Although this is the first time I'm playing him, he's clearly a reg.

I look down at 5h6d, which I'd usually fold, but I had played aggressively the last few hands and wanted to keep my image up - basically I wanna look tilted. I called thinking that if I hit a flop, I knew that I could check and get action.

Flop is 8s 6s 6c.

I check, UTG+2 bets 20, villain calls. I raise it to 120. UTG+2 folds, Villain re-raises all in, I snap call.

First of all - what do you think about the play? If requested I'll post what hand he had, and the result, but honestly I'd like to here about what you guys think about the play first. Can't be results oriented.

The only thing I'm second guessing is if I should have called, and then checked again to any turn. I think I woulda gotten action that way, but I'm not sure if it's a BETTER play than mine. I figure I priced out flush draws, and I'm only really scared of the Button holding 88, 67, 68 and K6s, A6s type hands. His calling range seems way wider than that to me, and in the moment I barely considered a flat call on the flop. I didn't want to call b/c I'd be letting flush draws see a turn cheap. So far, I've only shown down JJ twice, once drawing dead, once as top set against a OESFD. I also got it in AKs preflop against a 4 bet. My image was tight, up until the last few hands where I ramped up the aggression and picked up a few pots. I'm not sure if they think I'm tilting, but I sure as hell want them to.

Anyway, thoughts on my play? Did I play it too hard?

If he plays a lot of hands and was deep stacked, I'm betting he got lucky with 88, or made an updown straight/straightflush draw...
Either way, you made the right choice to snap call with a made hand and to keep that image up...

Yeah I'm obviously calling there, I just don't know if my raise to 120 (it's a 100 dollar raise into a 90 dollar pot, a pretty huge bet) is better than a call on the flop.

Had I done that, I woulda seen a turn and had a better idea of how strong my 3/kind is, and I think I'm getting flush draws to bet on missed boards, especially with the preflop raiser C-betting and the villain calling from the button (shows medium strength, and he's willing to make plays.)

After a few posts show up about my raise on the flop, I'll post what he had.

Honestly, I'm trying to figure out if my bet size was just ridiculous. I don't mind overbetting the pot at times, and at times I think it's really correct. If I hadn't raised so big, though, I'd be able to raise 3/4 pot on the turn if the flush draw misses AND I don't think I'm getting re-raised. And if I called, I could have priced everyone out. I guess the question is, was I better off just getting it all in in the long run against his calling/re-raising range straight on the flop?

Fold pre...i don't care what your image is.

After that, a c/r is okay, and you pretty much you have to get it in after that. You aren't calling preflop to fold your hand on that flop; if you are, you have major leaks. Hopefully he doesn't have a better 6 or 88. I would say it's at least 50% likely, maybe more since you said he wasn't stupid, but after the c/r youre still getting the odds to call most likely.

And about what you are questioning...if I had called, I could have priced everyone out, etc. If youre actually ahead on this flop, you should be okay with getting them all in. If not, you're playing underrolled.

I like your big raise. It would normally chase off any flush or straight chasers plus you take down a pot of $90 if everyone folds. That's a good pot. If the villain/aggressor has AA KK or QQ he probably thinks he still has the best hand. Hopefully for your sake that is what he had and didn't wake up to pocket 8's

I would say that you made the correct judgement call. No worries.

Quote: tringlomane

Fold pre...i don't care what your image is.

After that, a c/r is okay, and you pretty much you have to get it in after that. You aren't calling preflop to fold your hand on that flop; if you are, you have major leaks. Hopefully he doesn't have a better 6 or 88. I would say it's at least 50% likely, maybe more since you said he wasn't stupid, but after the c/r youre still getting the odds to call most likely.

And about what you are questioning...if I had called, I could have priced everyone out, etc. If youre actually ahead on this flop, you should be okay with getting them all in. If not, you're playing underrolled.

Well yeah, I was playing underrolled but not really worried about it. I don't have bankroll right now (combination of a downswing, unexpected life expenses and for the last amount of it - a couple of cool things I wanted to buy since I wouldn't be gambling with a 500 dollar roll,) I just hadn't played poker in a while and had one buy in I didn't mind losing if I got unlucky.

But my question was whether I'd have better EV against his calling/shoving range on that flop than I'd have if I called/checked any turn. My reasoning is that there are a few hands he could have that have me drawing nearly dead (one that has me drawing dead, 86) and a bunch that I think are gonna call way behind. I know getting it in on this flop is good, and I know it is +EV, probably about 70 dollars against his full range.

But my question is basically "could I get better EV by calling, and then seeing how the hand progresses." Basically I'm thinking that at least one of them is very likely to be holding a flush draw, which will raise on the turn regardless of if it hits based on my read of villain's style. I'm still calling a reasonable sized bet on that turn if the flush hits to see if I can hit a full house and stack off on the river.

So I guess the question is, does anyone think my raise was bad? If so, should I have raised smaller, or just called that flop?

PS: I realize that my preflop call was marginal at best, but I like it because I had played the last 5 hands after playing tight all night. Maybe it's just my experience, but when you play and win the last 5 hands, strong players have a tendency to play back and stack off way lighter against you, so I actually like my preflop call. I was really close to folding, but I just couldn't pass up the implied odds this time - especially because it may look like I'm tilting, even though I really never tilt over losses on the table. I had previously lost a few big hands, and folded a few while hollywooding that I was upset to fold them (really wasn't I completely missed the flop or only had bottom pair most of these times.)

Forgot to point out I was in the BB, I think that's somewhat relevant, as I would have folded preflop out of UTG, which is the only other position this hand makes sense from before I mentioned that.

You said you were BB in the original post

Oops thought I forgot to mention that. haha. Yeah I'm not in the best mindset right now - funnily enough it has nothing to do with this hand, it has more to do with something in my personal life. I'm actually trying to distract myself by analyzing this hand. I'm just gonna stop posting for a while, I'll come back tomorrow when I'm in a better mood.

I appreciate any advice you guys give, specifically I'd like to see if I anyone likes a smaller raise or call or if I'm just thinking too much about this and I played it fine.

I'll post what hand he had tomorrow given enough posts here, if anyone's curious. (Hint, it wasn't 88 or an open ended SF draw.)

the weakness of an unsuited 5&6 starting hand just plays out in bad ways, I'm sure you will be relating one

Quote: Boney526

Forgot to point out I was in the BB, I think that's somewhat relevant, as I would have folded preflop out of UTG, which is the only other position this hand makes sense from before I mentioned that.

When the raise is to $12 with only one caller and you are out of position (OOP), having $2 in the pot because you're the big blind means virtually nothing. Making big blind defenses like this is why $1/$2 live is a great game to play. I know we all get the loose call every once in awhile, but calling preflop was easily the biggest mistake you made in this hand, regardless of results.

Quote: Boney526

So I guess the question is, does anyone think my raise was bad? If so, should I have raised smaller, or just called that flop?

No, I don't think it's bad. But would have flatting the flop and "donking" (leading out OOP) on the turn on a safe card been better? Possibly. I would have been okay with either play. FYI, I hate NLHE cash and probably am a marginal player at best. I never regularly played past $0.10/$0.25 NL online, but of course, that was probably stronger competition than most $1/$2 live tables...haha

I agree that the pre-flop call was the weakest part of the hand, especially with only two other players in, but I can't say that I haven't done it before so can't hold it against you too much.

I'd be very concerned about the villian, I can't put him on a flush draw as I think he would have raised the c-bet to slow the action down on the turn and possibly take a free card in position. The fact he flatted the c-bet but came over the top of your big raise would indicate 88, 6X (and the X is ahead of your 5), or an over pair.

I like a raise to price out flush draws and get a better idea of where you stand, I think the amount of the raise was a little much ($100 raise into a $90 pot), but some players will read that as someone on a draw or someone just looking to buy the pot. If that's way you think the villian would read, then mission accomplished, you got your money in good. I think my raise would have been in the $75-$80 range.

But, he has a stack for a reason, and you said he was pretty strong, and you had a tighter image, so when he re-raised all-in, I have to narrow his range at that point to A6, 88, and less likely it's an overpair, unless you think he is willing to gamble that you don't have a 6 and he's not too concerned about your relatively smaller stack. I have a bad feeling he's ahead at this point. On the other hand, not sure how you get away from it as your getting over 3-1 to call his all in. It comes down to your read of the situation and his range and his playing style and patterns. Given the limited information, you probably need to call, but don't know if it's as easy as a snap call.

Villian called preflop with something. I'd put him on Ace-rag or a low pocket pair. Medium or large pair and he's re-popping pre with a strong position on the table.
Either...
Flop hit him with a flush draw and he chased.
Maybe Ace-8. ...since thats a "magical" hand.
Or he thought you were making a play and didn't think you play an 8 or a 6 with a $10 preflop

I'll go to war with my stack on that board with your set everytime, but I would have made a smaller raise to make the draw pay and maybe leave the preflop raiser in the mix for another card. I'll take the risk one time.

- - - - -

Thought about it for a few minutes.
I'm putting him on Ace-6.

The pre-flop call was terrible, regardless of what you were trying to project. If you want to project looseness, then you should do it with border-line hands, not putrid ones. You played everything correctly after the flop, if you flop trips, then you always bet in whatever way you think will result in getting all of yours or the villain's chips in before the turn.

I'm guessing he had some sort of inside pair, and hit a FH on the Turn or River. Maybe 9's or 10's, something like that.

I wouldn't call pre-flop. Out of position with 5-6off just isn't going to work out very often.

As played, the pop to 120 looks to me like you want to end the hand. Nothing wrong with that. But if your goal was to coax a call then I'd go a little less probably (of course you have 2 opponents at this point and you'd like to isolate). I have no problem with the snap-call of the shove.

Ok now that I've gotten a few opinions, I'll go ahead and post results.

The guy Qs4s, and the A of spades hit the river, giving him a flush. Part of the reason I was happy with calling 56o was because I saw this guy raise and re-raise with super marginal hands, so I was pretty sure I could get him all in if I hit something weird, which I actually did. BUT, I realize it makes way more sense to wait for a better hand anyway.

Part of my reasoning for calling 56o is b/c of the last 5 hands, I won each and everyone, and I showed down JJ, AKs, and stole the pot every other time (with good cards most of the time.) This could be terrible logic, though. But I can't count the number of times I've been on a little "heater," kept playing marginal hands right afterwards and stacked somebody with a weird 3/kind or straight.

Funnily enough, the Pre-flop raiser folded the King high flush draw (or so he says.) So I'm obviously happy getting it all in, because I wasn't too surprised to see such a marginal hand in his 3 betting range, but I figure it's the lowest hand in there. I had around 75% equity, and more like 80% if you consider the two dead spades. Quite frankly, even though this guy and the other good reg talk strategy all the time, I think he's played really bad and has just gotten lucky so far. (I mean, who 3 bets his spot? Even if I'm on an overpair, I'm not likely to fold those odds given his apparent range.) He wasn't even close to pot commited - yet he put it all in as if he was.

Basically, he said he was gonna call, but that if he calls, he can't fold the turn anyway so he stuck it in and put the decision on me. I realize that's terrible logic when I'm quite clearly pot committed (since on his end, he doesn't know my cards) but I said "Yeah I get it" and then "well that's poker" and went on with my night. I figure I don't even wanna let him know that's a terrible play since he considers himself such a strong player (he said a few things to me that indicated he thought he was way better than me.)

havent looked what he has yet, but with a hand like 88 he most likely just calls your raise on flop as he wont want you to fold.

he has 2 hands here. A6s or some sort of flushdraw. Since your title is how its gross im thinking he had a shitty flushdraw and sucked out.

You got it in good, dont be result oriented. If he had A6, its just a cooler.

Your call preflop is fine, its NL any 2 will do if you play good.

Given that you've already played pre-flop(a mistake), I'd say you played it right. The fact that you got rivered with a flush is bad luck. But you got your money in when you had the best hand with a reasonable expectation that it would remain the best hand. So no worries.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

These types of hands/beats are typical in a $1/$2 game. Nothing new.

Yeah, this is why I am annoyed that I actually don't like playing this game. People are just godawful at it at times. Obviously villain should have folded preflop, and folded to the flop check-raise, but once it's check-raised, he should either fold now or get it all-in. That's the one thing villain didn't totally screw up.