A Live hand I played.

I was playing 1/2, and I hand came up that I'm now second guessing.

I had a loose table image, as I had shown down some less than optimal hands (I actually stacked someone heads up w/ 23o when two 3s came on the flop and he had KK.)

Anyway, a new player sits down. He's older, though not very old, so I assume it's safe enough to assume he may be TAG. (I later realized he was more LAG than TAG, but he hadn't yet shown down any hands.) After a few hands, he's 2nd to act preflop, and raises it up to 12. Everyone folds to me, 1 off the button. I look at AhQd. I re-raise it to 50, attempting to shut down the pot here or find out whether he's actually got a decent hand himself. Everyone to my left folds, except him.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that both of us are pretty deepstacked. Probably about 300 behind him, and I have him more than covered.

Flop comes (103 in the pot)
5c 5h Kc

Check, Check (I checked because I thought he was not folding to a bet here, if he has something like AK, for obvious reasons. If he has a pocket pair, again, he's seen me play aggressive tonight and I didn't think he's laying it down. I think he wants me to bet into him.)

Turn comes (103)
Ks

Check, Check (Again I contemplated a bet, and maybe I should have. I still think he has me beat)

River (103)
8d

Villain bets 100.


What would you do in this situation?


(B/C I originally thought villain was TAG, I though he must have a pair of 77s or higher, or a hand like AK, AQ or maybe AJ or KQs. Basically I saw no situation where he'd call 50 without one of those hands, but I might be missing something. After thinking for 10ish seconds I fold. I figure I can tie him if he has the A high, and I lose in pretty much every other situation.)

For me, its a fold. I cant call hoping for a split pot.

deleted

When the K came out. I would have bet. There is a good chance you may have had the best hand with the A kicker. Otherwise, I would have folded when you did.

As played, fold, it's not worth calling to hope to split. I would have cbet flop and hope he lays it down. cbetting flop in 3 bet pots is pretty important unless villain is very sticky.

Quote: sodawater

easy fold... frankly i don't see why it's interesting enough to write it up.

Considering the amount of poker hands this forum sees, people can write anything and I'll read/respond to it. It's not like the NLHE mess better known as 2+2.

Quote: Croupier

For me, its a fold. I cant call hoping for a split pot.

Obviously calling is a bad play.

I was more interested if people thought it'd be better to raise. I suppose also wanted to see if anybody would have bet the turn or flop rather than check behind him.

Up until a few hands later I didn't think twice. I thought I played it fine, but then I saw him show down 36s with a 3 of a kind, in a pot which he was out of position and called a raise. My logic to fold was based on the fact that I thought he was a TAG, but I now think he could have made that play without any even an Ace kicker.

Quote: sodawater

easy fold... frankly i don't see why it's interesting enough to write it up. You should have bet the turn when the second K came because that's representing QQ or JJ and he probably has something like 99 or TT or JJ himself. Once you check it twice he value bet his higher 2 pair.

Yep I guess my read wasn't bad.

I may have written this up partly because I've been playing Poker more seriously over the past few months. I'm only starting to see read hand ranges on certain hands and want to see if my logic is sound.... or if other players think what I did was a mistake, in various scenarios. I was reading his range as 77+ or AK, AQ, AJ, QKs. Basically, I'm not able to put people on a range as often as I like, but I've slowly learnt all of the basic poker skills and want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.

There's a chance I was completely bluffed out of a pot, but I guess if I thought he was a TAG originally, I made the right play. I was probably beat the whole time (if my range was right), so my only other move was to try to rep a better hand than him. I don't think he was folding, though.

Quote: tringlomane

As played, fold, it's not worth calling to hope to split. I would have cbet flop and hope he lays it down. cbetting flop in 3 bet pots is pretty important unless villain is very sticky.

I usually do. I just thought his range was too strong, and that a C-Bet was more likely to cost me more money than I could get fold equity. In fact, in this same game I had another hand where I tried to steal the blinds one off the button. The guy on my left had been defending his button, and this time re-raised. I was basically holding junk (J4o) and the flop came Q67 rainbow. He bets 20 into 25 and I reraised him to 60 b/c he gave off a tell that his move was purely a position play.

Of course mine was purely a play on my read that time, but guess he won the pot with his Jack high.

This scenario was different because my read had him as stronger than me and I wasn't sure I could take the pot post flop. Maybe a raise was in order but I guess I wanted other opinions.

Quote: terapined

When the K came out. I would have bet. There is a good chance you may have had the best hand with the A kicker. Otherwise, I would have folded when you did.

Agree, Bet or shove on the turn in keeping with your image. You get donkey points for letting him go, now HE determines YOUR fate. You don;t seem well enough acquainted with his style of play. I have him sussed for a pair or Ace-other also. Folding is a wise choice, but calling the 12 bet in hindsight must be crampin your brain.

Quote: Boney526

Yep I guess my read wasn't bad.

I may have written this up partly because I've been playing Poker more seriously over the past few months. I'm only starting to see read hand ranges on certain hands and want to see if my logic is sound.... or if other players think what I did was a mistake, in various scenarios. I was reading his range as 77+ or AK, AQ, AJ, QKs. Basically, I'm not able to put people on a range as often as I like, but I've slowly learnt all of the basic poker skills and want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.

There's a chance I was completely bluffed out of a pot, but I guess if I thought he was a TAG originally, I made the right play. I was probably beat the whole time (if my range was right), so my only other move was to try to rep a better hand than him. I don't think he was folding, though.

If you are thinking he is a TAG at the time, the range is reasonable (if it's full table), probably could add KQo, live players still think that hand is pretty..haha Obviously you have to adjust the range once you saw the 63s defend. You can also discount KK+, and AK a bit as they are more likely to 4-bet (not always with AK tho).

Quote: 98Clubs

Agree, Bet or shove on the turn in keeping with your image. You get donkey points for letting him go, now HE determines YOUR fate. You don;t seem well enough acquainted with his style of play. I have him sussed for a pair or Ace-other also. Folding is a wise choice, but calling the 12 bet in hindsight must be crampin your brain.

Shove the turn? Really? I never would have thought of that. I thought about betting, but a shove would almost certainly only get called if I was beat. Of course, he'd also probably fold a bunch of hands that beat me to an all in.

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to sit here and tout my horn about how great I am. I can easily identify other plays where the mistakes I made were obvious to me. I'm trying to understand WHY other people would play this hand differently than I did.

I understand the idea behind betting the turn, but going all in would be putting about 280-300 at risk to win the 100 dollar pot. I'd need a lot of fold equity for that to be profitable. I don't see getting near that much fold equity.

As others have pointed out, if he's holding mid-pairs, and called your $50 pre, a 2-pair board is worth a shove if your advertising loose. The $50 raise CAN indicate a good hand, 10's or better. His call looked like Ace Face or mid pair. Flip the boat over, tuff loss. He would have over-played a King-X (except AK or KQ suited) hand anyways. I guess the big fear is 5-5 or KK buried, the latter might re-raise the 50 tho. So, the shove reinforces the high-pair, and might give Villain pause. Of course varying play-styles b4/after this hand also works.

Sometimes the wrong play at the wrong time works, especially when loose.

You put in $50 to see where he was. He had opened in $12 from early, but just called your raise. then on 55k to you, you check ?
WTF get serious. Per you he has just sat down a few hands ago. You bet $50 to win $15 if he folds preflop, which seemed unlikely. I would pretty much rule out AA or KK for him, wouldn't You. Looks like a middle pair or AX even. Assuming he knows what he is doing in early.

As far as your image, he has not been there long enough, plus most players at this level play their cards, not you. That's why rocks are great bottom feeders at this level. Not in a hand for 15 rounds, not counting blind, and people call a rocks raise and stay till the river. LOL

Now with $103 in the pot , he checks, and you now don't put in $50 or $100 to win $103 ? ? You asked here because you thought you made a mistake. And you did !

" I checked because I thought he was not folding to a bet here, if he has something like AK, for obvious reasons. "

Explain to me why he would check AK ? Really. What, did he think you had a 5 in your hand when you raised $50 ?

absolutely not even a hand I would remember five minutes later,ZERO option but to fold

I agree if you let this hand get to the river.

Quote: Buzzard

" I checked because I thought he was not folding to a bet here, if he has something like AK, for obvious reasons. "

Explain to me why he would check AK ? Really. What, did he think you had a 5 in your hand when you raised $50 ?

Thanks guys, I do think I should have raised the flop now, and I guess that was my mistake.

But I thought he would check AK because he was trying to induce a bet from me. At least that's what I was thinking when I was playing the hand. I suppose I shouldn't have been so worried about the King, because the only two hands I had him on that connected with the K were AK and KQs. He was still ahead with a mid-pair.

I think he would have folded 77+, but not JJ or higher. He clearly wouldn't have folded with a King, so he probably would have folded only on AJ, AQ and some meduim pairs. In the moment, I didn't think that was good enough to bet 50 into 100 but I guess the C-Bet here is a good play. I'm not gonna actually do the math, but out of that range I now think he would have folded a large enough portion of his range that the mistake was not firing the bet post flop.

I did think he was trying to set up a check-raise, though, so that influenced my decision.

Quote: Boney526

Thanks guys, I do think I should have raised the flop now, and I guess that was my mistake.

But I thought he would check AK because he was trying to induce a bet from me. At least that's what I was thinking when I was playing the hand. I suppose I shouldn't have been so worried about the King, because the only two hands I had him on that connected with the K were AK and KQs. He was still ahead with a mid-pair.

I think he would have folded 77+, but not JJ or higher. He clearly wouldn't have folded with a King, so he probably would have folded only on AJ, AQ and some meduim pairs. In the moment, I didn't think that was good enough to bet 50 into 100 but I guess the C-Bet here is a good play. I'm not gonna actually do the math, but out of that range I now think he would have folded a large enough portion of his range that the mistake was not firing the bet post flop.

I did think he was trying to set up a check-raise, though, so that influenced my decision.

Yes, he would probably k/r (k/r = check-raise) AK or at least check to you, but if you get k/r'ed, you just let the hand go. It's not a big deal really.

If he called later with 63s then I would put him on 2 possible hands (as players get attached to suited cards):-

a) KJs (or similar) ... his actions would suggest that he checked the flop in case you had AK. I think that he would have called if you'd bet but the bet on the flop by you would have signalled you something. When the 2nd King came he would check now hoping that you bet and didn't hold AK. He should also bet a medium pair to you and didn't either because he was holding a King or because he didn't play it that well.

b) Medium pair ... he would check to see if you bet the King. Again a bet on the flop could well make him put the hand down.

I would definitely have bet the 'turn' if not the flop. If he has a King then he will lead out on the river and you can fold. if he has a medium pair then he may well call you on the turn but will likely check on the river. One thing that you would stop him doing is stealing with a hand like 45s, which he could have done in this situation (although I agree that it would be a loose call with the reraise pre-flop).

For what it's worth, I put him on KJs even though it's hard to assess all of the information.

Quote: Switch

If he called later with 63s then I would put him on 2 possible hands (as players get attached to suited cards):-

a) KJs (or similar) ... his actions would suggest that he checked the flop in case you had AK. I think that he would have called if you'd bet but the bet on the flop by you would have signalled you something. When the 2nd King came he would check now hoping that you bet and didn't hold AK. He should also bet a medium pair to you and didn't either because he was holding a King or because he didn't play it that well.

b) Medium pair ... he would check to see if you bet the King. Again a bet on the flop could well make him put the hand down.

I would definitely have bet the 'turn' if not the flop. If he has a King then he will lead out on the river and you can fold. if he has a medium pair then he may well call you on the turn but will likely check on the river. One thing that you would stop him doing is stealing with a hand like 45s, which he could have done in this situation (although I agree that it would be a loose call with the reraise pre-flop).

For what it's worth, I put him on KJs even though it's hard to assess all of the information.

a) on the turn, he shouldn't care if you have AK, villain is still 50/50 if you have AK since you both have full houses with an identical draw to a better full house (pairing the kicker)

I would say it's a bit more likely that he has a medium pair trying to squeeze out river value. It really depends on his opening range and how much of that range has a king in it. But given that he will play 63s to a raise, it's definitely possible he would open and call a 3-bet with KJs.

But given that he will play 63s to a raise, it's definitely possible he would open and call a 3-bet with KJs.

I doubt he raise to $12 with 63s in early position, let's give him some credit.

As for check check turn and river, you have position , USE IT. If you always gonna worry about a check raise, WTF.

Buzz, I'd just have you know that I usually use my position much better than I did in this hand. I'm usually not worried about a check raise. I was in this hand. And I probably shouldn't have been, if he raised me I could have just folded.

It had a lot to do with my read on him. I didn't think he was folding even if I bet. I now think I should have put him to the test, but it's in the past now. Posting this has helped me to see what I could have done better - since something irked me about how I played it.

And thinking about it, betting in order to get him to fold on the flop was probably a better play. I'm trying to learn how to use my reads on hand ranges better. It's definitely one of the tougher concepts to learn to use effectively. Since poker is a game of using information effectively, this is something I've gotta work on. There are numerous hands I'm confident that I played the situation right - even where I lost. I posted one where I thought was wrong, but wasn't sure where.

Boney, we are giving you general opponent responses. If you sensed or read something where a flop c-bet wouldn't work as much as normal, then checking is not a mistake. It really depends on your read/opponent. Generally I believe you should bet flop, but there are some opponents/tells that would make that the wrong decision.

True.

Again, I appreciate the input everyone.

I will post more hands here as I play if any of them are interesting. I won't be playing too much, but when I get free time I will.

STOP IN ANYTIME. You seem to learn from your mistakes, rather than whine. Sure sign of a winner in the long run.