investor
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December 6th, 2012 at 5:17:42 PM permalink
Hi everyone,

I have questions regarding fortune bonus bet and envy bonus bet. I am confused! Is that right that the house edge would be reduced by the players' return on envy bonus bet?

Best,

Kamin
rdw4potus
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December 6th, 2012 at 5:21:32 PM permalink
Quote: investor

Hi everyone,

I have questions regarding fortune bonus bet and envy bonus bet. I am confused! Is that right that the house edge would be reduced by the players' return on envy bonus bet?

Best,

Kamin



Yes, that's right. The envy bet results in additional money coming to the player at no cost, so it cuts into the edge.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Buzzard
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December 6th, 2012 at 5:30:02 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Yes, that's right. The envy bet results in additional money coming to the player at no cost, so it cuts into the edge.



I think not. You have to be playing the side bet to collect the envy bonus. Key word is THINK.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
RaleighCraps
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December 6th, 2012 at 5:37:34 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I think not. You have to be playing the side bet to collect the envy bonus. Key word is THINK.



rdw can fight his own fight, but before the math gets more than 1+1=3 and over my head, I will weigh in.

If I bet the fortune bet for $1, I will get paid for my qualifying hand only.
If I bet the fortune bet for $5, I will get paid for my qualifying hand, AND I will get paid for any other player's hand that qualifies too.
So, I get extra hands in play, solely for increasing the size of my bet. Thus, a reduction in the HE for me.

EDIT: For those that don't know, you have to bet minimum $5 to get that ENVY bonus included in your bet.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
FinsRule
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December 6th, 2012 at 6:25:22 PM permalink
House edge is less betting $5. Expected loss of betting $5 is a lot more than betting $1. I think expected loss of betting $4 is higher than betting $5 though.
rdw4potus
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December 6th, 2012 at 6:28:39 PM permalink
OK, fine. Given a fortune bonus bet level equal to or greater than $5, the envy bonus cuts into the house edge of the fortune bonus bet. Does that work for you Bo...er...Buzz?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Buzzard
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December 6th, 2012 at 6:45:57 PM permalink
THIRD BASE
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
investor
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December 7th, 2012 at 5:07:07 PM permalink
Thanks!
investor
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December 7th, 2012 at 5:09:07 PM permalink
Why do you think expected loss of betting $4 is higher than betting $5 though?
FinsRule
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December 7th, 2012 at 5:41:50 PM permalink
Quote: investor

Why do you think expected loss of betting $4 is higher than betting $5 though?



$1 bet - 7.7 cents
$2 bet - 15.4 cents
$3 bet - 22.1 cents
$4 bet - 29.8 cents
$5 bet - 15.65 cents (At a full table)

I think my math is right.
investor
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December 8th, 2012 at 3:41:27 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

$1 bet - 7.7 cents
$2 bet - 15.4 cents
$3 bet - 22.1 cents
$4 bet - 29.8 cents
$5 bet - 15.65 cents (At a full table)

I think my math is right.



could you show me the math on $5 bet? I understand the math which below $5. Because of the HE is 7.7%, for $2 bet, 2*7.7=15.4

Thanks,

Kamin
boymimbo
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December 9th, 2012 at 12:03:48 AM permalink
7.7 for $1
15.4 for $2
23.1 for $3
30.8 for $4
38.5 for $5, less the envy bonus.

Pay table on the envy:

EventPaysCombinationsProbabilityReturn
7 Card Straight Flush5000320.000000210.00105
Royal Flush + Royal Match1000720.000000470.00047
7 Card Straight Flush with Joker5001960.000001270.000635
5 Aces25011280.000007320.00183
Royal Flush50260200.00016880.00844
Straight Flush201846440.001197870.0239574
4 of a Kind53074720.001994720.0099736
EV, 1 other player0.046356
EV, 2 other players0.092712
EV, 3 other players0.139068
EV, 4 other players0.185424
EV, 5 other players0.23178
EV per Player0.046356
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
investor
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December 9th, 2012 at 3:59:38 PM permalink
Thanks for your time. As I know, fortune bonus bet and envy bonus bet are separated, even we make a bet on one single spot. Could you explain it to me that why they are considered as separated?

Thanks
Paigowdan
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December 9th, 2012 at 5:11:53 PM permalink
If I could answer, the Envy bonus is of a different "mechanism" -
On the main bonus bet and progressive, you get paid on what is contained in YOUR hand.
For the Envy payout, it pays on what some other player has in HIS hand.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
JB
Administrator
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December 9th, 2012 at 5:16:11 PM permalink
Quote: investor

Could you explain it to me that why they are considered as separated?


What Dan said, plus the fact that there are usually other players makes it necessary to keep the envy math separate. You multiply the envy return by the number of additional player hands, and add this to the return from the non-envy prizes for your own hand.
investor
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December 13th, 2012 at 6:45:25 PM permalink
What happens if in order to win on the envy bet, a player has to win on his fortune bonus bet. Otherwise, a player can't get paid on his envy bet, even other players have 4 of a kind or better. Are they still considered as separated?

Thanks
JB
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December 13th, 2012 at 8:06:33 PM permalink
Quote: investor

What happens if in order to win on the envy bet, a player has to win on his fortune bonus bet. Otherwise, a player can't get paid on his envy bet, even other players have 4 of a kind or better. Are they still considered as separated?

Thanks


Yes. Multiply the envy return by the number of other players and then by the probability of a winning bonus hand for the primary player, before adding that result to the return for the primary player.

Is there a casino which is denying envy bonuses unless the recipient has a winning bonus hand?
FinsRule
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December 13th, 2012 at 10:03:57 PM permalink
Totally separate issue, but the envy bonus would be so much more popular, and wouldn't hurt the house edge that much if dealer hands were eligible.
investor
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December 14th, 2012 at 4:39:44 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Totally separate issue, but the envy bonus would be so much more popular, and wouldn't hurt the house edge that much if dealer hands were eligible.



I don't know why it is a separate issue. Could you explain? but I think the envy bonus would be less popular because my condition is that a player has to win on his fortune bonus bet to qualify to win on envy bonus. The original envy bonus wins as long as other players hit 4 of a kind or better.
investor
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December 14th, 2012 at 4:51:54 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Yes. Multiply the envy return by the number of other players and then by the probability of a winning bonus hand for the primary player, before adding that result to the return for the primary player.

Is there a casino which is denying envy bonuses unless the recipient has a winning bonus hand?



No. I just want to figure out the maths and the way to calculate if condition has been changed.

Based on my condition, the HE will be higher because of lower envy return by multiplying the probability of a winning bonus hand for the primary player. And the envy bet will be less popular because the hit frequency is lower. Tell me if I am wrong on anything!

Thanks
JB
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December 14th, 2012 at 7:29:54 PM permalink
Quote: investor

Based on my condition, the HE will be higher because of lower envy return by multiplying the probability of a winning bonus hand for the primary player. And the envy bet will be less popular because the hit frequency is lower. Tell me if I am wrong on anything!


Correct.
investor
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December 20th, 2012 at 9:57:32 PM permalink
Thanks for all help.

Now, I have another issue. Can any of you show me how to come up with a envy bonus return is 0.0463/bet if a player bets more than $5?

Have a good weekend
investor
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December 20th, 2012 at 10:05:00 PM permalink
Quote: investor

Thanks for all help.

Now, I have another issue. Can any of you show me how to come up with a envy bonus return is 0.0463/bet if a player bets more than $5?

Have a good weekend



I just figured it out. I think it is 0.009268*5=0.0463 (in a full table), let me know if i am wrong.
Paigowdan
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December 20th, 2012 at 10:23:03 PM permalink
Adding the dealer's hand would not hurt the house edge that much (< 1%, about 0.61%), and it could be an option on less than a full table, - or whenever playing heads-up, or being the first player "player bonus" to open up a Pai Gow table.

In other words, if you're alone at a pai Gow table, then adding envy to dealer's hand for a solo player would be a VERY good catch or incentive. I mean, if a player is playing ALONE, then who exactly is he going to "envy" - if not the dealer, when playing heads-up? - I think at least this should be done.

Further, and as known, DEQ has been installing a lot of Pai Gow progressives where you may ALSO make a separate progressive bet on the dealer's hand, so "catching a dealer's bonus" is done with an additional straight-up bet on the dealer's hand. Note that this is NOT an envy, but a bet that ANY dealer's hand which would pay on the progressive, starting at a full house, - and just like your own hand - would pay the player's progressive bet. In case of the jackpot, you would win a share of the jackpot, and if you had bet MORE than a dollar, then you get two shares, three shares, etc., of the jackpot.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
investor
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December 20th, 2012 at 10:40:20 PM permalink
I think I have saw a bonus bet on dealer's hand, but I don't think it is popular. you got a really good point on the bold part right there. Are you going to get a patent on this idea, Dan?
Paigowdan
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December 20th, 2012 at 11:16:08 PM permalink
Quote: investor

I think I have saw a bonus bet on dealer's hand, but I don't think it is popular. you got a really good point on the bold part right there. Are you going to get a patent on this idea, Dan?




I have a patent for only a dealer's Pai Gow hand, as part of the EZ pai Gow system, and was a part on the non-qualifying mechanism on the game of EZ pai Gow.

For bonus bets, I do NOT have such a patent on Pai Gow poker.

DEQ owns that bonus patent on dealers' hands, as far as I know. It is used extensively in their "G3" bonusing system.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
investor
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December 20th, 2012 at 11:29:34 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I have a patent for only a dealer's Pai Gow hand, as part of the EZ pai Gow system, and was a part on the non-qualifying mechanism on the game of EZ pai Gow.

For bonus bets, I do NOT have such a patent on Pai Gow poker.

DEQ owns that bonus patent on dealers' hands, as far as I know. It is used extensively in their "G3" bonusing system.



As far as I know, G3 is not that popular. How do you own a patent for only a dealer's Pai Gow hand, as part of the EZ pai Gow system? Were you EZ pai gow's inventor's partner? I met EZ pai gow's inventor at G2E before.

Could you tell me what non-qualifying mechanism is?
Paigowdan
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December 20th, 2012 at 11:56:29 PM permalink
Quote: investor

As far as I know, G3 is not that popular. How do you own a patent for only a dealer's Pai Gow hand, as part of the EZ pai Gow system?


I do not own the IP (intellectual property rights) for G3/I3 that DEQ provides with the game. And G3 seems to be plenty popular, and is increasing its install base. If you do not think G3 is popular, then wait a short period; you will see it commonly installed fairly soon.

But Yes, I own the patent on the base game of EZ pai Gow, which is often offered without the progressive system in some installations. My patent is on file with the U.S. patent office, and is on file with the law firm Howard & Howard.

Quote: investor

Were you EZ pai gow's inventor's partner?


No. I am the sole inventor of EZ Pai Gow, and the patent holder.

I have assigned the patent to my company, which I run along with my business partner, whom you have have met; he is part owner of the company, but he did not invent the game, nor does he hold the patent. He is a great guy, one of the few whom I trust in the gaming business, and I am glad to work with him.

My business partner was at times "inspiration" for the invention, because his large hands had trouble metering out coins on a Pai Gow game to make change for the commission drag on the game; (we often dealt together on a relief string when we used to deal at a local house here in the las Vegas area). My business partner is the co-owner with me of the company that supplies the game to gaming distributors.

Quote: investor

I met EZ pai gow's inventor at G2E before.


We may have indeed met at G2E. I spent a lot of time at the 2012 G2E convention at the Galaxy Gaming booth, as I also am showing a new game with them, so you may have missed me at DEQ's booth. I've met so many people there at G2E, I cannot recall someone from their Internet forum handle. If you are in my cell phone or email contact list, I do know you, and you might be there. I am sorry, but I cannot discern your identity from your handle as "investor" at an Internet forum.

Quote: investor

Could you tell me what non-qualifying mechanism is?


Yes, of course. It is widely known, and is available for public review at DEQ's web site, if you are not at many of the casinos that offer the game, or are unfamiliar with the game.

Basically, the game mechanism works like this:
If the dealer gets a specific "Pai Gow" (high-card) hand on a casino-banked hand of pai Gow poker, then that hand, (or one or more such pai Gow [high card] hands) is declared a "full-push" non-qualifying hand, as it applies to casino-banked Pai Gow poker; any side bets (if bet) remain active. Additionally, a bet on the dealer's non-qualifying hand is allowed, and is based on the the specific level of dealer's non-qualifying specific high-card hand. Generally, we use a "Queen-high only push" in casino-banked practice, although different levels of non-qualifying dealer's hands are allowed to satisfy the patent's mechanism. If a casino wishes to reduce it's house edge, it may, for example, use a jack-high or less dealer's hand as the non-qualifier; if it wishes to increase it house edge, it may use a King-high only, or King-high or less mechanism, etc. We have found that the Queen high only, and exactly, accurately replaces the use of a 5% commission from regular pai Gow pokr, while speeding up the game - as there is less dealer's change-making and "commission-calculation fumbling."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
investor
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December 21st, 2012 at 12:30:31 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I do not own the IP (intellectual property rights) for G3/I3 that DEQ provides with the game. And G3 seems to be plenty popular, and is increasing its install base. If you do not think G3 is popular, then wait a short period; you will see it commonly installed fairly soon.

But Yes, I own the patent on the base game of EZ pai Gow, which is often offered without the progressive system in some installations. My patent is on file with the U.S. patent office, and is on file with the law firm Howard & Howard.


No. I am the sole inventor of EZ Pai Gow, and the patent holder.

I have assigned the patent to my company, which I run along with my business partner, whom you have have met; he is part owner of the company, but he did not invent the game, nor does he hold the patent. He is a great guy, one of the few whom I trust in the gaming business, and I am glad to work with him.

My business partner was at times "inspiration" for the invention, because his large hands had trouble metering out coins on a Pai Gow game to make change for the commission drag on the game; (we often dealt together on a relief string when we used to deal at a local house here in the las Vegas area). My business partner is the co-owner with me of the company that supplies the game to gaming distributors.

We may have indeed met at G2E. I spent a lot of time at the 2012 G2E convention at the Galaxy Gaming booth, as I also am showing a new game with them, so you may have missed me at DEQ's booth. I've met so many people there at G2E, I cannot recall someone from their Internet forum handle. If you are in my cell phone or email contact list, I do know you, and you might be there. I am sorry, but I cannot discern your identity from your handle as "investor" at an Internet forum.

Yes, of course. It is widely known, and is available for public review at DEQ's web site, if you are not at many of the casinos that offer the game, or are unfamiliar with the game.

Basically, the game mechanism works like this:
If the dealer gets a specific "Pai Gow" (high-card) hand on a casino-banked hand of pai Gow poker, then that hand, (or one or more such pai Gow [high card] hands) is declared a "full-push" non-qualifying hand, as it applies to casino-banked Pai Gow poker; any side bets (if bet) remain active. Additionally, a bet on the dealer's non-qualifying hand is allowed, and is based on the the specific level of dealer's non-qualifying specific high-card hand. Generally, we use a "Queen-high only push" in casino-banked practice, although different levels of non-qualifying dealer's hands are allowed to satisfy the patent's mechanism. If a casino wishes to reduce it's house edge, it may, for example, use a jack-high or less dealer's hand as the non-qualifier; if it wishes to increase it house edge, it may use a King-high only, or King-high or less mechanism, etc. We have found that the Queen high only, and exactly, accurately replaces the use of a 5% commission from regular pai Gow pokr, while speeding up the game - as there is less dealer's change-making and "commission-calculation fumbling."



I am a dealer who is working on the strip. I wish I could meet one who I can trust and become my partner too. It is hard to find someone who can be relied on.

Actually, the one I met at G2E is the inventor of Lucky Win Baccarat. I am not sure if He is you or your partner. I don't think I am in your email list or any contact list, but nice to meet you here. My name is Kamin Chen.

Does Howard & Howard law firm have solid table-games lawyer? I have talked to one inventor and he said his lawyer screwed him up because the lawyer took more than a year, the gaming control denied his application, something like that.
VladAlex1
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June 15th, 2016 at 11:29:31 AM permalink
Bonus Pai Gow Poker by Microgaming
Are there any US patent infringements issued to you or DEQ?

http://www.free-casino-games.com/table_games/bonus-pai-gow-poker.html
I’d rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
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