Basic Pot Odds Question

Just started learning the basics of calculating poker odds and most of the examples i've seen for pot odds assume that the player is heads up and all of the players outs are still in the deck. Obviously if you were playing 9-handed, there's a high chance some of your outs are in the hands of folded players. So say you're playing 9 handed and you have a flush draw on the flop, do you consider yourself to have 9 outs for the flush? If so do you calculate your odds of hitting the flush on the turn as 9/(cards in deck) or 9/47 (the amount you'd have in a heads up game)?.

Thanks for clearing this up :)

edit: double post

Quote: Play4fun

Just started learning the basics of calculating poker odds and most of the examples i've seen for pot odds assume that the player is heads up and all of the players outs are still in the deck. Obviously if you were playing 9-handed, there's a high chance some of your outs are in the hands of folded players. So say you're playing 9 handed and you have a flush draw on the flop, do you consider yourself to have 9 outs for the flush? If so do you calculate your odds of hitting the flush on the turn as 9/(cards in deck) or 9/47 (the amount you'd have in a heads up game)?.

Thanks for clearing this up :)

Yes, you do. Unless you have a reason to actually know information to the contrary (someone folds face up or otherwise flashes their cards, etc.)

Quote: Play4fun

Just started learning the basics of calculating poker odds and most of the examples i've seen for pot odds assume that the player is heads up and all of the players outs are still in the deck. Obviously if you were playing 9-handed, there's a high chance some of your outs are in the hands of folded players. So say you're playing 9 handed and you have a flush draw on the flop, do you consider yourself to have 9 outs for the flush? If so do you calculate your odds of hitting the flush on the turn as 9/(cards in deck) or 9/47 (the amount you'd have in a heads up game)?.

Thanks for clearing this up :)

This is like saying, there are 30 cards at the bottom of the deck that will never get dealt, and some of them will probably be the suit that you want, so do you really have 9 outs?

The point is, the next card is chosen randomly from the unseen cards. Unless you have a read on your opponent, the fact that your opponent can see them and you can't doesn't matter. There is no difference between the cards in your opponents hands and the cards at the bottom of the deck.

But what if your out is an Ace. Since most players play AK or maybe AQ, a pre-flop folded hand would mean there is a higher chance the Ace will be left in the deck.

Quote: MangoJ

But what if your out is an Ace. Since most players play AK or maybe AQ, a pre-flop folded hand would mean there is a higher chance the Ace will be left in the deck.

Right. I said, "unless you have a read on your opponent". Being able to cut your opponent down to a range of hands counts as a read.

just a small nit perhaps, the card(s) are drawn off the top of the remaining deck, it may randomly be an out. Nonetheless, the cards are not shuffled to select the next card in B&M poker... there is room for discussion about OLP practices.

Quote: 98Clubs

Nonetheless, the cards are not shuffled to select the next card in B&M poker

Then where is the difference. If the deck is shuffled perfectly random, and you cannot peek at the cards, there is no difference in dealing from a shuffled deck, or shuffleing between each deal.

9/47 is correct regardless how many players in. The key is that only 5 cards are known to you, flop and your 2 cards. The rest of the 47 are unknown regardless if they are in the deck or dealt to other players.

Quote: terapined

9/47 is correct regardless how many players in. The key is that only 5 cards are known to you, flop and your 2 cards. The rest of the 47 are unknown regardless if they are in the deck or dealt to other players.

This.

MangoJ: you make a good point about high-card outs, since players are often more likely to play high cards than low cards. That's the reason that easily dominated hands like ATo play so poorly out of position. For this reason, it's usually good to discount your outs, which—like most things in poker—requires a little bit of estimation.

For example, if you have AQo on a KQJ two-tone board, you may want to discount your Ace outs, as an Ace suited with the board will complete a Tx straight as well as a flush draw, both rendering your Aces up a losing hand. In this case, I would only count the Ace as 1 or maybe 2 outs rather than 3 simply because I think it's likely that an Ace will help my opponents on a board like this more than it will help me around 33-67% of the time.