Blind Play - 4/8 Limit HoldEm

I have been folding both the SB and BB when it is raised to me, which seems to be very often. When nobody raises, I see the flop, then fold when I don't catch anything.

I end up w/ garbage hands and want to dump it before it costs me another bet.

I called a few raises, holding to big connected card or any 2 suited cards- wrong approach ?

I am playing too passive ?

Quote: DonPedro

I have been folding both the SB and BB when it is raised to me, which seems to be very often. When nobody raises, I see the flop, then fold when I don't catch anything.

I end up w/ garbage hands and want to dump it before it costs me another bet.

I called a few raises, holding to big connected card or any 2 suited cards- wrong approach ?

I am playing too passive ?

In a word, yes.

The first thing that you have to look at is the position of the Raiser. If the Raiser is in very early position on a ten-seat Table, then chances are he has a powerhouse, so you're probably doing the right thing to fold anything except the Top Ten hands, and then folding unless the Flop brings you a Powerhouse or Nut-Draw. However, when the Raise comes from a player in Middle or Mid-Late position, then it becomes more likely that he has a margina hand and is simply trying to draw some Folds or get a player heads-up.

You're being a little bit too loose, however, calling any two suited cards if the Raise comes from an early position. Again, an early position Raise should lead you to believe that the guy has, if not one of the Top 10 hands, then at a minimum in the Top 10% of possible hands. If you have suited-connectors, then that is a different matter because then you have the opportunity to possibly hit a straight or a flush, but you should throw it away if you don't flop the following: Pair w/ No Overcards, Two Pair, 3oaK, Four to a Flush, Four to a Straight, Four to a Straight-Flush, Flush, Straight, 4oaK, FH...a few of those are very obvious, of course!

If you do end up with a Flush, you also have to be very careful if the early pre-flop Raiser continues to Raise, particularly if the Community ends up being Four-to-a-Flush after the Turn or River. If you remember nothing else during the course of the hand, always remember this, the guy Raised with BIGGER cards than you, he has a BETTER starting hand (in cases of playing Suited-Connectors, NEVER lower than 5-4, or you eliminate Straight possibilities).

If you have something like 9-3, suited, you need to get the Hell rid of it. Even if you are fortunate enough to catch a Flush, there's a pretty good chance that someone is going to have it beat, especially if the Community ends up Four-To-A-Flush. There will probably be an overcard, even if a Nine comes on the Board, so the only real hands worth continuing to even play post-flop are Two Pair, 3oaK, Made Flush, 4oaK, FH. You shouldn't even be in there with that pile of crap, to be honest, because the vast majority of Flops are going to result in something that you should run away from, but maybe you don't, because now you have money in the pot that you want to protect.

The other thing is to play more conservatively when first sitting down and try to spend a half hour or more OBSERVING and only playing the Top 10% (or so) of hands, period. The most useful piece of information is to see a guy showdown a hand such as a FH or 3oaK in which he had an abyssmal starting hand and called pre-flop. Good. He's a pre-flop call station of the mentality, "The Flop can be anything, and I'd hate to miss a good hand, Hell, anyone can even flop a Four of a Kind!" I like this mentality. Beware of a pre-flop Raise from this guy, but his calls are something that you never have to take seriously pre-flop, disregard his calls, it's dead money 90% of the time!!! If the pre-flop call station is the Raiser, however, you may consider that it is time to GTFO!!!

OK. So you have a Middle-Position Raise followed by two calls. One of the calls is a pre-flop call station, unconcerned. The other call is the Small Blind, okay, that guy is probably just protecting his Blind. Analyze. Watch for stuff like that, he's right next to you, so he's easy to watch. What percentage of Flops does he see out of the SB? Is it around 50% or more? Yes? Okay, he's a Blind protector. Disregard his call.

Why do I say you are passive, then? Simple. If it is worth calling, then it is worth Raising. When you are playing Limit based on Pot Odds, then you want your Pot Odds based on money in the Pot, and if you can get more people out of the Pot, then your Pot-Odds improve. You should only simply call once in a while and only with the most marginal of hands and only when you are calling it dead. The only reason you would even do that is so that your style is not completely obvious, it's a cover play. If you didn't want to Cover, then the mantra, "If it's worth calling, it's worth Raising," should always be the case...especially for short sessions.

Some may disagree, and I am no professional, but I consider myself a decent player and those are my opinions. A grain of salt, however, would be advisable.

The simplest strategy in the blinds is when there is a raise and you are in a blind to play the same range of hands you would play in early position unless there is multi-way action and you have a hand that plays well multi-way, but again from your other posts, the first thing you need to study is a basic starting hands strategy.

Quote: rubixxcube

The simplest strategy in the blinds is when there is a raise and you are in a blind to play the same range of hands you would play in early position unless there is multi-way action and you have a hand that plays well multi-way

For live low-limit holdem, this is a great summary on how to blind defend without going into a huge post like mission did. :)

And I disagree on, "if it's worth calling, it's worth raising." If someone raises, and there are at least 2 callers, and you have 87-suited for example. 3-betting is suicidal, but folding when getting these odds in the big blind is also bad. When the pot is not multiway, 3 betting or folding instead of calling in the big blind becomes more desirable. But heads up pots is also a sign of a bad 4/8 limit table!

This is similar to SSHE- starting hands

Group 1 Hands (Play in ANY Position)
Pairs 99+
Suited AXs, KTs+, QJs, JTs
Unsuited AQ+

Group 2 Hands (Play in Middle or Late Position)
Pairs Any
Suited AXs, KXs, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+
Unsuited AT+, KJ+, QJ, JT

Group 3 Hands (Late Position Only)
Pairs Any
Suited AXs, KXs, QXs, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 53s+, 42s+, 32s
Unsuited AT+, KT+, QT+, JT

Although I do loosen up a bit as my position improves, I am looking for any reason to dump my hand, rather than a reason to play my hand.

Can calling w/ low suited connectors to the showdown, just to advertise( per Helmuths book) help me ?

Possibly from the blinds as I will have a bit of a rebate

If youre out of the blinds you should be tightening up when someone else raises usually in front of you. If people raise in 4/8 limit, that usually signals "DANGER DANGER", so you should be folding a lot of these weaker hands, especially most of group three. Now if you're in the big blind, you should see a flop with most of these suited connectors/suited aces if it's multiway, but I'd prefer it's at least 5 high though. So you go to showdown with these for image though? No, people at 4/8 won't really pick up that.

Also another bit of advice, stop reading anything by Phil Hellmuth.

Quote: DonPedro

This is similar to SSHE- starting hands

Group 1 Hands (Play in ANY Position)
Pairs 99+
Suited AXs, KTs+, QJs, JTs
Unsuited AQ+

Group 2 Hands (Play in Middle or Late Position)
Pairs Any
Suited AXs, KXs, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+
Unsuited AT+, KJ+, QJ, JT

Group 3 Hands (Late Position Only)
Pairs Any
Suited AXs, KXs, QXs, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 53s+, 42s+, 32s
Unsuited AT+, KT+, QT+, JT

Although I do loosen up a bit as my position improves, I am looking for any reason to dump my hand, rather than a reason to play my hand.

Can calling w/ low suited connectors to the showdown, just to advertise( per Helmuths book) help me ?

Possibly from the blinds as I will have a bit of a rebate

Where is this from? SSHE is Smal Stakes Hold em i Assume? I am a bit surprised at how lose they are recommending playing in Middle position, even late position some of this range is questionable, at least in my mind. It's going to be really tough to play 86s profitably in Middle Position 1 or K2s.

Also calling just to advertise, again especially at lower limits really has little to no value if that is the only reason for the play.

Quote: tringlomane

For live low-limit holdem, this is a great summary on how to blind defend without going into a huge post like mission did. :)

And I disagree on, "if it's worth calling, it's worth raising." If someone raises, and there are at least 2 callers, and you have 87-suited for example. 3-betting is suicidal, but folding when getting these odds in the big blind is also bad. When the pot is not multiway, 3 betting or folding instead of calling in the big blind becomes more desirable. But heads up pots is also a sign of a bad 4/8 limit table!

This is a great opportunity for meaningful Debate!

I'm going to explain the statement:

Let's look at this:

We're playing 3-6 Limit, Ten at the Table, Middle-Position raises, two calls, action's on you.

You've got 8-7, suited.

Here's an example, Raiser has KhQh, First to Call Jd-9d, SB Js-8s, BB-you-8c-7c.

If I'm going to go ahead and call this thing:

1.) I'm telling my opponents, "Hey, my hand isn't all that strong, but it's just good enough that I want to see the Flop for $3.00 more rather than guarantee a loss of $3.00." If you Raise, you're advertising strength, which is good, if the flop comes Mid-Cards, I want my opponents to think I am just betting high cards, Pair w/ good kicker, or a good Flush Draw. I could already have two pair.

2.) I don't like the probabilities. I'm 19.56% to win the hand (as is) if I call, so that's 19.6% to come out ahead $18, $3.5208 EV on winning $18 v. -$4.824 to lose $6 for an EV of -$1.3032. My EV on folding, however, is a fixed -$3.00, so there's no question that calling is a better decision for this hand.

What if I Re-Raise, though?

I'm bumping this action to $9.00, Kh-Qh is either going to call or Re-Re-Raise. He can do either. If he calls, then I would say that one of the other hands calls and one of them folds. They might both fold because they are scared of the possible cap.

Scenario 1: Call-Fold-Call-Call

We have $33 in the pot now, of which $9 are mine. We'll take out the worst hand which is the SB. I am now 26% to profit $24 and 74% to lose $9 $6.24 -$6.66 = -$0.42, so as you can see, I'm in much better shape than I was before in terms of EV.

Scenario 2: Re-Raise-Fold-Fold-Call

Neither of those guys are calling those hands. I know this guy has the best of me, at this point, so I'm not going to cap. There is going to be $36 in this hand of which $12 is mine. I am 37.19% to profit $24 and 62.16% to lose $12. $8.9256 - 7.4592 = $1.4664 EV

You can see that, even though I am likely to lose the hand, the EV is very much in my favor.

The Point

I could go through all kinds of scenarios with this one hand, (and I used the cards you gave me and gave my opponents ALL better hands than I have) or I could come up with more examples, but the point is that dead money ALWAYS improves one's EV. I want as much dead money as possible in there, and merely calling does not facilitate dead money.

If it's worth calling, it's worth raising.

Quote: Mission146

What if I Re-Raise, though?

I'm bumping this action to $9.00, Kh-Qh is either going to call or Re-Re-Raise. He can do either. If he calls, then I would say that one of the other hands calls and one of them folds. They might both fold because they are scared of the possible cap.

What casino are you playing at where someone calls a raise but folds to a 3-bet for one more bet when getting 10 to 1 to see the flop minimum?? Sounds like a lovely game. :) Generally if you 3bet and the original raiser does not 4 bet, no one is ever folding and you are just bloating the pot with 87s, which I suggested was "suicidal" earlier. If for some reason you have an idiot that calls a raise but will fold to your 3-bet, then sure 3-bet away.

Quote: tringlomane

What casino are you playing at where someone calls a raise but folds to a 3-bet for one more bet when getting 10 to 1 to see the flop minimum?? Sounds like a lovely game. :) Generally if you 3bet and the original raiser does not 4 bet, no one is ever folding and you are just bloating the pot with 87s, which I suggested was "suicidal" earlier. If for some reason you have an idiot that calls a raise but will fold to your 3-bet, then sure 3-bet away.

I would not be so quick to assume that never happens. You're approaching the question from a standpoint of a knowledgeable poker player where many at the table are not, all some people think is that there are now two hands a good deal better than his hand and he is encouraged to fold.

In reality, I want the Re-Raise because, yes, that makes the other two more likely to fold.

However, if everyone calls, I'm 19.6% to come out ahead $27 and I am 80.4% to lose $9. $5.292 - $7.236 = -$1.944 so you can see that the difference in EV is worse if everyone calls, but when you look at the difference between that and then the difference between one person folding, if I think we are 50/50 (or better) to get a Fold, then my anticipated EV improves with the Raise.

Furthermore, if the Middle Position guy tends to try to steal Blinds and has garbage, then he may fold.

Again, what I really want is the Re-Raise. I want people out of the hand. I want dead money in the pot. That's what I am trying to do, create dead money. The times that I get dead money will make up for the times that I don't, unless it's just a really loose Table.

Things can change based on the betting habits of the people you are playing with, which is why a working knowledge of that is just as important as probability charts. That's also why I suggested learning those things simultaneously. We're just speaking in generalities right now, though.

JFTR, I've sat next to quite a few small blinds who will call a single Raise to, "Defend the Blind," and they are loose in that sense, but they almost always cave to a Re-Raise because they are otherwise tight. Tendencies is the name of the game.

Yeah, "never" is a bit harsh because I've seen it once or twice in my life. But again, that's a sign of a great game/a great fish. Expecting someone to typically fold (more than 50% of the time!) in a typical live 3/6-4/8game is a bad idea. So let me adjust...anyone playing with half a clue never folds for one more bet here. If one folds 50% of the time, obviously your EV goes up, everyone's does except the guy who folded!

fwiw, I like 3-betting 87s in the bb much more in no-limit (I wouldn't do it often though) than here since you could actually win a pot in this scenario without reaching a showdown.

I'm going to add some fuel to the fire.
Not sure right now what this does to the math but I think some numbers do need to be slightly adjusted.
First, when it comes around to you, you are getting 7:1 on your call. You are only a 4:1 dog here. You have to call $3 with a pot of $21, your $3 is part of the pot, it's not yours anymore.
Couple of random thoughts.
By reraising to $9 to you are cutting your immediate odds in half ($21:$6) as well as hurting your implied odds, which is where these types of hands can be profitable.


I'm all for playing aggresively but Small/Medium Suited connectors are best played in limped multi-way pots in position, they are worst played in Heads up/short handed pots out of position.
I agree with a 3bet here in a situation where you are all in in a NL game preflop and cards are just ran out or some situation like that, so getting more dead money in a pot is more advantageous.
In regards to
"The times that I get dead money will make up for the times that I don't, unless it's just a really loose Table"
The problem is that there are 3 more streets of poker to play. I don't think semi-isolating from the BB with a hand like this is going to be more profitable long term then merely calling.
As tringlo hinted at, 3 betting weak hands from the blinds in multi-way pots or bloating pots with week holdings Out of position is suicidal.

In the hand you describe, I think calling>folding>raising.

Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, "never" is a bit harsh because I've seen it once or twice in my life. But again, that's a sign of a great game/a great fish. Expecting someone to typically fold (more than 50% of the time!) in a typical live 3/6-4/8game is a bad idea. So let me adjust...anyone playing with half a clue never folds for one more bet here. If one folds 50% of the time, obviously your EV goes up, everyone's does except the guy who folded!

fwiw, I like 3-betting 87s in the bb much more in no-limit (I wouldn't do it often though) than here since you could actually win a pot in this scenario without reaching a showdown.

I'm not expecting someone to fold more than 50% of the time. I'm hoping that someone will fold, that there will be a Re-Re-Raise, that the initial Raiser will have been trying to steal the Blinds with crap and fold...and barring all of this...I could still catch a good flop!

In the overall sense, my play in this scenario could be wrong, it's right on that edge, so I admit that much. You gave me a very border-line hand to work with here, but I'm either Re-Raising or Folding. If the pot has been Raised twice by the time it gets to me at BB, there's no question that I am folding that hand. I basically just go by the charts if we are talking about the pot getting raised twice by the time it gets to me.

EDIT: I might also call a single Raise, depends on the Table.