IS POKER A SPORT?

Is poker a sport? It's a game with competition that requires skill and the best players become professionals and make a lot of money. Sure sounds like a sport to me. It seems like anything that involves risking your money is not considered a sport. Maybe you could argue that poker is not physical, therefore shouldn't be called a sport. Maybe it should be called an investment or just plain gambling. Looking this stuff up in a dictionary can drive you crazy.

GAMBLING: Risk money or anything of value on the outcome of something involving chance.

INVESTMENT: To commit money or capital in order to gain a financial return.

One dictionary says, the act of gambling is to get a thrill. The thrill is the reward. Making money in the stock market is called investing as long as you don't get a thrill (I guess). I always thought the difference between gambling and investing was a complicated issue, but as you can see, it's rather simple. Hmmm?

Anyway, I can't help but notice how many comparisons there are between a good poker player and a good sports handicapper. Poker players and sports handicappers are programmed to collect information. They both deal with odds and always find value. Poker players and handicappers try to avoid tilt and there's always a bad beat looming around the corner. Ask a poker player how important money management is and you'll get the same answer from a handicapper. I guess I'll never understand if poker is a sport or not, but I can't help but think good poker players would make good handicappers.

Quote: duckston09

Is poker a sport? It's a game with competition that requires skill and the best players become professionals and make a lot of money. Sure sounds like a sport to me. It seems like anything that involves risking your money is not considered a sport.

I think, the determining factor is whether the winner is determined by skill alone, as opposed to luck.
You can play chess for money, but it is still a sport. Poker is not.
There are sporting leagues of contract bridge for example. The element of luck there is eliminated by having the opposing teams play the same exact hands and comparing their results only between themselves. That is sport. The regular rubber bridge is not.

If some similar methodology could be developed for poker, that variant could be considered sport. The way it is now, it is not.

I like the definition "If you can do it with a beer in your hand, it's not a sport."

So playing horseshoes at a bar the other night doesn't make me an athlete.

It might depend on what country you're in. East Asian countries typically consider Chess and Go sports, and regulate tournaments under their Ministries of Sport; Cuba's national newspaper Granma frequently covers Chess tournaments on the front page of the sports section. Sometimes abstract strategy games (to include Bridge) are collectively referred to as "mind sports"; it would seem reasonable enough to include Poker in that group, if it isn't already.

It strikes me as more of a matter of semantics than anything else. Pool, Snooker, and Carrom are sometimes collectively called "cue sports", and British TV usually broadcasts dart championships as sports programming. FWIW.

Quote: FarFromVegas

I like the definition "If you can do it with a beer in your hand, it's not a sport."

So playing horseshoes at a bar the other night doesn't make me an athlete.

I've always considered sports to have some element of hand-eye coordination, or having some sort of athletic requirement.

Quote: weaselman

I think, the determining factor is whether the winner is determined by skill alone, as opposed to luck.

All sports include elements of luck.

Just using Baseball as an example:
Is it skill or luck if the catcher calls for a pitch that you're expecting, and you can make a hit?
If it you decide to swing at what turns out to be a sinker, and miss, was that skill or luck? What about for the pitcher/catcher?
If you hit a long ball towards the foul pole, is it skill or luck that determines which side of the pole the ball flies?
If you hit a ball right to a fielder who makes an easy catch, was that skill or luck?
If a fielder bobbles a ball, skill or luck?

I could go on, but I think you get the point.


For what it's worth, I read once that professional foreign poker players use a sports visa when coming to the US, so that might give you an answer right there.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

All sports include elements of luck.

Just using Baseball as an example:
Is it skill or luck if the catcher calls for a pitch that you're expecting, and you can make a hit?
If it you decide to swing at what turns out to be a sinker, and miss, was that skill or luck? What about for the pitcher/catcher?
If you hit a long ball towards the foul pole, is it skill or luck that determines which side of the pole the ball flies?
If you hit a ball right to a fielder who makes an easy catch, was that skill or luck?
If a fielder bobbles a ball, skill or luck?

I could go on, but I think you get the point.


For what it's worth, I read once that professional foreign poker players use a sports visa when coming to the US, so that might give you an answer right there.

I think most of those questions were all skill based.

Poker is not a sport - It's a game. It doesn't mean there isn't skill in it.

As for poker players receiving a sports visa, I wouldn't read anything into it. I doubt there is a "games visa"

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I got a really bad cramp in my tuchus during a tournament once, would that be a, "Sports-related injury?"

Quote: weaselman

I think, the determining factor is whether the winner is determined by skill alone, as opposed to luck.
You can play chess for money, but it is still a sport. Poker is not.
There are sporting leagues of contract bridge for example. The element of luck there is eliminated by having the opposing teams play the same exact hands and comparing their results only between themselves. That is sport. The regular rubber bridge is not.

If some similar methodology could be developed for poker, that variant could be considered sport. The way it is now, it is not.

Sports are NOT defined by not having luck involved. Simple examples--- golf -- early tee time---- windy------ late tee time--- calm.
Football --- COIN TOSS in overtime
Baseball--- ball hits pebble
Etc.....

Based on the physical condition of some of the people I run into at the tables I'd say not a sport, but a fun game to play.

As a side note, my 6 year old will be playing in his first Pokemon card game tournament in a couple weeks, will be interesting to see how that goes.

I think that all variants of poker are a sport game. Unless you are referring to video poker or casino pokers 3 card etc..

Poker is a game, like any other. Some countries consider Texas Holdem Poker to be a sport game, some others not yet..

Any game involves luck, INCLUDING CHESS, and Billiards ! Well if you play ultra perfect white should never lose in chess, because the advantage of the first move. (the same apply to checkers game - a game played with backgammon checkers on a chess table)

- OK, ok but who decides who will be playing with white and who will be playing with blacks ? - There is the LUCK FACTOR !!!

Luck and skill are part of the game, and anyone can GAMBLE ON and IN any game or event, be it elections or marriages !

Backgammon as well, Yahtzee and any game which can be organized and played in a professional manner should be part of a sport.

Regarding to POKER (Texas Holdem Poker), the tendency to be accepted as SPORT is increasing in all countries where is not already.

One thing to keep in mind is that a sport is nowhere defined by necessary involving physical skills into it, can be mental as well !

Sport - an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

I would not consider playing poker athletic. Neither is chess, dominoes, craps, staring contests or spelling bees. It's the continual dumbing down of America trying to let as many people qualify for cool titles as possible so their feelings don't get hurt.

ZCore13

Quote: PlayHunter

Any game involves luck, INCLUDING CHESS, and Billiards ! Well if you play ultra perfect white should never lose in chess, because the advantage of the first move.

Chess is not yet "solved" in a way that you know the perfect strategy. Hopefully someday it will (so white can win by calling "checkmate in 169 moves" - and the response of black will of course be "oh boy, not again"...)
But maybe chess is like tic-tac-toe, where the first move is not enough advantage to win, and black can always reach a remis (possibly by forcing white into circular play). Of course there is a ultimate truth about this game, we just don't know (yet).

Quote: MangoJ

Chess is not yet "solved" in a way that you know the perfect strategy. Hopefully someday it will (so white can win by calling "checkmate in 169 moves" - and the response of black will of course be "oh boy, not again"...)
But maybe chess is like tic-tac-toe, where the first move is not enough advantage to win, and black can always reach a remis (possibly by forcing white into circular play). Of course there is a ultimate truth about this game, we just don't know (yet).

was that from futurama?

Yeah I guess so, Bender was visiting his old robot fraternity house at Mars University.

Quote: MangoJ

Chess is not yet "solved" in a way that you know the perfect strategy. Hopefully someday it will (so white can win by calling "checkmate in 169 moves" - and the response of black will of course be "oh boy, not again"...)
But maybe chess is like tic-tac-toe, where the first move is not enough advantage to win, and black can always reach a remis (possibly by forcing white into circular play). Of course there is a ultimate truth about this game, we just don't know (yet).

I would guess, but of course it is just a guess, that black will just call 'stalemate' after white's first move!

Poker is a game of chance. It involves skill, as do most card games. Not as much as some. In the end, any form of poker comes down to betting on who has been dealt the best cards.

Cash game poker definitely isn't sport. It's not a competition, but a sequence of bets and trades.
Tournament poker, I would think, is only just enough to count as sport.

But it's not designed as such. For instance, when bridge is played competitively, it's played as duplicate bridge, with the same deal at every table. There's no particular reason poker MTT couldn't be played in such a way. Let's say at first stage you have to play 9 tables, starting each with 1,000 chips, all players get to play the same 9 series of deals, chips are summed up to determine next stage players.
It's not done that way. There are reasons it's not.

Any sport has luck in it, but luck can be reduced to opponent selection, and serious sports try to mitigate even that, or it can be kept as prominent as in poker. Chris Moneymaker, a strong but hardly world-class player, is testament to its role.

Tournament style maybe, any game with a bluff element is not a sport. Poker is a game of chance and the calculation of advantage/disadvantage bsed upon hand-strength, pot-size and bets made. Mental and fiscal gymnastics, but not physical gymnastics.

But, that cramp in my ass really hurt!

An ifn your not too lucky, that'll be the cramp in your wallet causing the cramp in your butt.

@ P90 (&everyone) there was a site online ago few years (called "duplicatepoker" - search on Youtube for: "duplicate poker tutorial by RIO Poker") but is no longer online since 2010. Anyway, it is a great comparison to dealing same cards to other tables at bridge.

However, I think not only at poker tournaments as a sport but poker ring games (or head to head) as well.. think at chess: chess money games are sports of mind as well as chess tournaments. (anyone decline this ?) - Or at tennis: tennis tournaments are sports competitions, however tennis side games (with a stake or not) or tennis exhibition games are sport single games/ events as well.

There is an international body called SportAccord, which maintains the standing definition for an international sport. It is:

have an element of competition
be in no way harmful to any living creature
not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier
not rely on any 'luck' element specifically designed in to the sport

They acknowledge chess and go are mindsports, but the 4th point excludes poker. Not a sport.

Not a sport.

Quote: dwheatley

There is an international body called SportAccord, which maintains the standing definition for an international sport. It is:

have an element of competition
be in no way harmful to any living creature
not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier
not rely on any 'luck' element specifically designed in to the sport

They acknowledge chess and go are mindsports, but the 4th point excludes poker. Not a sport.

Definition #2 rules out American Football, Hockey, Baseball, Basketball, Soccer, etc.. The Contestants are at risk of injury, and serious injury.
As a matter of fact, I will exclude all physical sport... it seems that mindsport is the ONLY sport involved in the definition.

Quote: 98Clubs

An ifn your not too lucky, that'll be the cramp in your wallet causing the cramp in your butt.

LOL

As with most poker players, I contest that, "Luck," ony had any involvement when I lose.

I don't blame Lady Variance for my poker losses, necessarily, but this is one interesting stat that I have tracked in my limited tournament play.

In tournaments, I've gone all-in, heads-up, (only called by one person) 112 times.

I have been ahead in the hand 96 of those times.

I have lost 42 of those hands, and chopped the pot twice. (If we only cound hands where I was the dog, I should have only lost 16 times!)

EDIT: JFTR, I'm not claiming to have been WAY ahead in all of these hands, but I was way ahead in a good many of them. It's usually two pair or Trips against someone drawing to a Straight/Flush. I've only gone all-in trying to draw a Straight/Flush a handful of times, or less, only hit it once. I'll usually only commit such a play if it is nowhere near cash time and my stack is five BB's or less. The other times I have gone all-in and have been the dog it has usually been me with two pair against someone with a low inside pair that hit Trips, and a few times it was me hitting Trips with a low inside pair vs. someone with Trips with a better (but still low) inside pair.

I got knocked out by a, "Pusher," once. The guy would push all-in on virtually every low rainbow flop, I noticed, to collect the pre-flop action apparently hoping that nobody hit anything. I was satisifed with his play because I knew it was just a matter of time until I would put a slamming on him. I got dealt inside Queens as SB, the table folded, I raised to 5x BB, he called. The flop came low and rainbow, he pushed all-in. He had my stack covered. I called it without hesitation, and it turned out he had 5-7, off, and had made a straight on the flop!!! That was the end of that tournament, for me.