MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:36:28 PM permalink
If they're spreading it on a craps table, it needs the higher edge to make up for the larger footprint. Doesn't anyone remember when I proposed a 3-dice version of this last year? Play it with Pai Gow cups on a standard blackjack table and it's far faster than a dice pit.

FYI, Beat The Dealer isn't a "new" game at all - it's at least 40 years old and probably much older. See pp. 508-509 of Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paradigm
Paradigm
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:42:40 PM permalink
ME, I had to go back and see if Dice War was a two or three dice game as it immediately came to mind.
MrCasinoGames
MrCasinoGames
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:43:58 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

If they're spreading it on a craps table, it needs the higher edge to make up for the larger footprint. Doesn't anyone remember when I proposed a 3-dice version of this last year? Play it with Pai Gow cups on a standard blackjack table and it's far faster than a dice pit.

FYI, Beat The Dealer isn't a "new" game at all - it's at least 40 years old and probably much older. See pp. 508-509 of Scarne's New Complete Guide to Gambling.


Yes, you did proposed a 3-dice version of this last year.
You was asking for a good name for the game and was offer if for fee too.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Paradigm
Paradigm
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February 15th, 2012 at 8:47:24 PM permalink
I think losing 1/2 on any set of circumstances isn't good. Didn't work for me in my game concept. So you need to change it to losing 100% on certain ties and pushing on others.

What if exact matches on both dice lose all other ties push. Does that cut the HE down to 1 in 18 or 5.55%? Need confirmation there from better math talent than me.

If that is too high what if you had same rule, but used two colors of die (i.e. red & green) and both values and color had to match in order to lose a tie. Would that get you down to 1 in 36 or a 2.78% HE?
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
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February 15th, 2012 at 9:00:11 PM permalink
Quote: Triplell

Ugly but simple. I don't really see how they could make it any simpler while reducing the house edge. My only guess would be to count ties as a push and charge a vig....



How about ties push but if the banks dice roll a 2 they either push or win?

They should also offer the side bet that Pala does here in CA. If the two rolls are 12 and 2 you win 500 to 1. Big house edge but fun nonetheless
Vote for Nobody 2020!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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February 15th, 2012 at 9:21:03 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

ME, I had to go back and see if Dice War was a two or three dice game as it immediately came to mind.


I did it with three dice for two reasons: (a) as already mentioned, the 2-dice version has a higher (and, frankly, brutal) house edge, and (b) Pai Gow dice come in sets of three already.

To winmonkeyspit3 (and anyone else who frequents Turning Stone), please let them know that they can speed things up and save floor space by playing the game differently. They can also offer a lower edge and still make more $/hr/sqft.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
winmonkeyspit3
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:09:44 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I did it with three dice for two reasons: (a) as already mentioned, the 2-dice version has a higher (and, frankly, brutal) house edge, and (b) Pai Gow dice come in sets of three already.

To winmonkeyspit3 (and anyone else who frequents Turning Stone), please let them know that they can speed things up and save floor space by playing the game differently. They can also offer a lower edge and still make more $/hr/sqft.




I know some of the floor supervisors pretty well, but nobody high up. I will mention it the next time I am there (probably next month). The game does take up a lot of space, it is right on the edge of the pit with middle limit ($25-$50) blackjack tables and $10 craps tables, so the location does seem pretty silly. That being said, it is right near the entrance to the gaming floor, and the game is usually pretty busy, so I'm guessing it draws a lot of people in, especially when they hear that there is a $1 minimum bet.

To the Wizard, your analysis of the game looks spot on!
WongBo
WongBo
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:14:15 PM permalink
I still think for a game like this to succeed, it has to be exceedingly simple.
My eyes just glaze over when I read some of the proposals on here.
You need to come up with a game that is easy to learn and play.
Why do you think three card poker is so popular?
This game is hard to improve for simplicity.
It has three rules.

Look at the description from their website:
Beat the Dealer was designed to offer our casual Casino guests the excitement of a craps game without the intimidation.
The Play:
Make a wager. If the total of two dice thrown by a player is greater than the total of the dealer's two dice spin of the cage, you win... even money.
A player roll and dealer spin of the cage that ends in a tie will result in all wagers being collected by the dealer.
In the event of a dealer spin total of twelve, all wagers will be collected immediately and no player roll for that spin.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
winmonkeyspit3
winmonkeyspit3
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:19:33 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

The single zero wheels often are not on the main floor and will usually have higher limits.
The roulette in AC returns half your even money bet on a roll of 0 or 00.
Similar to the "en prison" rule but with out imprisoning the bet.
I do agree that the general public is woefully undereducated (in general)
and specifically regarding probability math.

I have to say that Turning Stone Casino in Verona NY which this thread refers to
Has more than their fair share of carnival games. I think they even have keno.

At least they have a decent payable on the three card poker pair plus bet.
They still have the 40-30-6-4-1 payable with 2.32% HE instead of
The more common 40-30-6-3-1 payable with 7.68% HE.
I am sure this is an oversight given their love for games with a huge edge.




Turning Stone is indeed a very interesting place. They offer good blackjack at limits as low as $5 during the day(3:2, 8 deck, DAS, RE-4times, No RSA, No surrender)(3:2 DD, no DAS same other rules) which both have house edges in the .4x area. At the same time they have 3 Big 6 wheels, countless let it ride tables, casino war, red dog, sic-bo, 6 double zero roulette wheels, all of the stud poker games with numerous tables of each, and lots of high limit 3 card poker. Funny how their blackjack is good but everything else is so atrocious. Comps are weird here too. All table game comps are discretionary, and expire 48 hours after you play. Floor supervisors will dish out free buffets for even $5 players, and steak dinners for higher limit, but you have to be bringing BIG action if you want to get a room from playing tables. I have seen people lose $5000+ on blackjack over the course of a day and not even get a room, yet my mom who brings only a $20 bill (to play video slots) and her $5 freeplay gets a mailer every few months for a free room. They love the slot players, but only tolerate feeding table game players. Very strange. Fun place though with great food, nice rooms and a very relaxed atmosphere.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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February 15th, 2012 at 10:41:18 PM permalink
Quote: winmonkeyspit3

I know some of the floor supervisors pretty well, but nobody high up. I will mention it the next time I am there (probably next month). The game does take up a lot of space, it is right on the edge of the pit with middle limit ($25-$50) blackjack tables and $10 craps tables, so the location does seem pretty silly. That being said, it is right near the entrance to the gaming floor, and the game is usually pretty busy, so I'm guessing it draws a lot of people in, especially when they hear that there is a $1 minimum bet.


I'm sure it does draw if it's at the front of the pit -- that's the whole point. But I think it can be made far more exciting and also cost-effective. Here's how:

1) Get rid of the dice table and sic bo cage, and use a blackjack table instead. Or two.
2) Get two Pai Gow cups and four dice, two each of two different colors.
3) The dealer and the player each shake the dice shakers and slam them down on the table. This takes much less time than spinning the cage and shooting the dice. It's also very loud -- a great attraction.
4) Reveal the dice cups and evaluate winners.

You'll get many more hands/hour this way than with the dice table. The only reason to use a dice table is to get players used to throwing dice and maybe to move over to craps, which from their website seems to be the goal. But I'm not sure how many people that will actually work on. There's a huge difference between making a $1 carnival bet and a $10 passline bet, if not from an EV standpoint than from a psychological standpoint.

Also, please let them know that if they're paying someone for their "new" game, they shouldn't be -- it's been in the public domain for decades.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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