Cheating at Trivia
Poll
 | 12 votes (29.26%) | ||
| | 22 votes (53.65%) | ||
| | 3 votes (7.31%) | ||
| | 4 votes (9.75%) |
41 members have voted
Quote: NicksGamingStuffHey Mike if you were in my situation would you have kept silent to prevent an awkward moment, or would you have tattled on the spot?
For myself, I would have brought it up immediately
in a good natured way. Like "Hey, no cheating! A time
out for you, go stand in the corner." The awkward
moment happened when she cheated, anything after
that is 'she gets what she deserves'.
I still think it was OK for the dealer to help her, let her "earn" her extra tip.
However, I think Nick or the dealer should have told you the truth after the waitress left. Not so much so you can complain to the waitress or to ask for your $10 back, but so you'd have a chance to get a "shot" at the money with a double-or-nothing with no cheating question.
Quote: TiltpoulThat just made laugh out loud. The fact that you didn't figure out she was getting the answer elsewhere kind of makes me laugh. I'm sorry, this is a buyer beware situation. You were cheated, but you were CLEARLY cheated... you should have seen that from a mile away.
I thought it was fishy too. You can see that I wrote that I said "I can't believe it." I'm not sure what I actually said, but I was indeed incredulous, but what could I do? My choices were cough up the $10 or call her a cheat. If I called her a cheat, and she denied it, what evidence would I have?
Even higher than all this I believe that if you make an accusation about somebody you better have rock solid evidence to back it up. I strongly agree with the commandment "thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor." With the least bit of doubt, don't accuse.
Quote: DJTeddyBearHowever, I think Nick or the dealer should have told you the truth after the waitress left.
I tried to leave Nick out of this, but he admitted that he witnessed the whole thing, about two weeks after the fact. Perhaps he will share why he didn't say anything at the time, and why he did say something when we returned to the scene of the crime.
Like I said before, I forgive Nick. However, maybe FrG can hand down an appropriate penance, if Nick requests it.
Yes, I did not intend for nationality to be a misleading factor, so I will clear this up. The grandfather was a German of Jewish ancestry who emigrated to England in the 1930s. His Nobel prize (in 1954) was for work he performed in the 1920s. His daughter's family, including Olivia, later moved to Australia, as Nareed said.Quote: NareedOh, that I do know. Libby was actually born in England and moved, with her family, to Australia while still a child. But I've looked up the answer, too, and this part is misleading.Quote: WizardAbout Olivia's grandfather, I have no idea. If forced to guess I would say something to do with aviation, because I know some parts related to safety were invented in Australia, like the Black Box and inflatable slide.
Quote: DocYes, I did not intend for nationality to be a misleading factor, so I will clear this up. The grandfather was a German of Jewish ancestry who emigrated to England in the 1930s.
That pretty much gives away what category the Prize was in :)
Quote: Wizardhow it went down, with a long pause before each CW response.
Oh, I get it. During the long pauses the cocktail waitress's eyes were focused on the dealer's lips but the various half-snockered young men's eyes were focused on the cocktail waitress and didn't pick up on the repeated long pauses and incorrect responses.
Quote: FleaStiffOh, I get it. During the long pauses the cocktail waitress's eyes were focused on the dealer's lips but the various half-snockered young men's eyes were focused on the cocktail waitress and didn't pick up on the repeated long pauses and incorrect responses.
Nick, the dealer, the CW, and myself were the only ones involved. There may have been an elderly Asian woman at the table who didn't give a damn. Personally, I picked up on all that, but what was I supposed to do? Ask to see the surveillance tape before paying?
In my world, I get blamed for everything that every goes wrong. Rather than pass that on, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, until someone proves unworthy of said trust. I get cheated all the time as a result, but I believe the world would be a better place if we looked out for our fellow man more, and ourselves less.
Quote: WizardIn my world, I get blamed for everything that every goes wrong.
Yeah, and? Just the other day I broke a dish and
my wife got mad. I said, hey, blame it on that
Wizard guy in Vegas. Was that so wrong?
Quote: EvenBobJust the other day I broke a dish and my wife got mad. I said, hey, blame it on that Wizard guy in Vegas.
I broke it; I admit it. Less effort to just take the blame than fight over it for hours.
Quote: Wizard
Like I said before, I forgive Nick. However, maybe FrG can hand down an appropriate penance, if Nick requests it.
If Nick did ask for a penance I think the only thing I would tell him is to keep up the hard work there in Vegas. It seems like he's got a lot going on and thanks to the kindness of the Wizard he can rejoice in forgiveness and move on. I hope he knows that it seems like a lot of people on the forum are thinking about him and hoping he makes it, count mine as one more voice in support of you. I'm praying for you. Peace and go and sin no more.
Quote: WizardMy choices were cough up the $10 or call her a cheat.
I think that you could have found some middle ground by asking her if she had any help with the answer.
If she says "Yes" then that shows she was at least honest and maybe a $5 payment could have been awarded.
If she says "No" then she has definitely crossed over this 'gray cheating line' and maybe it would have allowed Nick to step in and counter.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffand was well gifted in an area many men enjoy.
That is probably why I was so patient with her reply. I had a legitimate excuse to just sit there and enjoy the view.
Quote: WizardThat is probably why I was so patient with her reply. I had a legitimate excuse to just sit there and enjoy the view.
I haven't voted on this thread until now, but it's going to "Other (explain)".
She did cheat by getting the answer from the dealer. However, you were distracted and just admitted that you more patient with her reply as you were distracted by the view. As a result, that was the cost of your entertainment, and sadly, you set the price a bit high. After her second "attempt," even a good nature person like yourself should have figured something was afoot. You could have simply asked her, "What was the movie again?" and she wouldn't have remembered if she didn't know the answer. You got hustled, but it sounds like you were a willing participant... sorry.
Quote: WizardThat is probably why I was so patient with her reply. I had a legitimate excuse to just sit there and enjoy the view.
So maybe both of you won the same bet?
I get really pissed off when people lie to me, out of the principle alone, and try myself to be honest in my dealings with everyone.
Quote: weaselmanSo, what's your point? Are you saying, that if it was a "traditional" bet, then she would not be cheating? In my book, you either are cheating or you are not, it's black and white, and does not depend on the amount of money on the line.
My point is that her behavior is all the more despicable because she was not even cheating to avoid losing 9 or 10 bucks. Is a bet you can't lose a bet?
Quote: WizardAbout Olivia's grandfather, I have no idea. If forced to guess I would say something to do with aviation, because I know some parts related to safety were invented in Australia, like the Black Box and inflatable slide.
About tipping the shoe shine mine. Nah. I think if I tipped then he wouldn't feel that he paid his penance.
About the CW free rolling on the $10, I don't see how that matters. Cheating is cheating.
Finally, I think I said this in the "friendly bet" thread, but I'm not saying there is no place for a "barroom trick." A good example is the movie Lucky You, where a guy made a small bet that he could cross the poker room without ever touching the ground. The wager is accepted and he scoots his chair across the room as he sits in it. If somebody proposes that he can do something that seems near impossible, then a trick should be expected, and the bet the price of the entertainment to see how it is done. Just because such things happen, doesn't live everyone license to cheat in every situation. You have to take the situation in context. Here is was quite plausible that the CW would know the answer to that question. It was asked in the spirit of fun, like on Cash Cab.
If I had been one of the betters I would have simply walked across the floor, unless it was bare dirt, and claimed my prize. Had I been the other I would have dumped him out of his chair.
Quote: dmI agree you had to pay. But if the occasion ever arises where a tip to her is appropiate, I would remind her that you prepaid 10 of them.
I think I will have a chance to see said CW again and will indeed impugn her honesty. I'll keep you posted if anything happens.
Quote: dmMy point is that her behavior is all the more despicable because she was not even cheating to avoid losing 9 or 10 bucks. Is a bet you can't lose a bet?
But she wasn't really cheating. Not any more so, then you are, when you count cards. There was no explicit rule forbidding her from getting the answer from the dealer, even if Wiz thought that she should have implicitly assumed it, just like paigowdan thinks we all should assume there is a rule against counting in black jack.
It does not matter what if anything she stands to lose if she does not get an answer. If you don't want to think of it as a bet, then say, that Wizard hired her for his entertainment. He got entertained all right, so why in the world should she not have been paid?
Moreover, I claim, that what she did was even more entertaining than what Wiz originally planned. If she just honestly said she did not know the answer (or if she happened to know it), that would have been the end of it, but the way she did it, Wiz (and all of us) is still being entertained by having this whole incident to discuss.
Quote: weaselmanBut she wasn't really cheating. Not any more so, then you are, when you count cards. ....
O M G people. Counting cards is NOT cheating. If you're playing at third base, and someone else is using a computer or abacus to keep a running tally, then mouthing the results to you like this CW did, then THAT would be cheating. Anyone who says counting is cheating is just envious that they don't have the brainpower to do it themselves.
Counting cards at blackjack is no more cheating than being 7 feet tall is cheating in basketball.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffDid you remember who it was? I really cannot recall which person it was.
Not exactly. However, there are only so many that work that pit and I think a simple investigation will produce the guilty party.
Quote: zippyboyO M G people. Counting cards is NOT cheating.
That was exactly my point. :) The casino does not want you to count cards, you know that you are doing something they don't want you to do, yet, you are not a cheater, because you are not violating any rules. The Wizard does not want the CW to get the answer from her friend, but he failed to establish a rule, that she had to get the answer herself. Thus, she is not a cheater any more than a card counter is.
Quote:If you're playing at third base, and someone else is using a computer or abacus to keep a running tally, then mouthing the results to you like this CW did, then THAT would be cheating.
Nope. The dealer did not use the computer (and even if he did, it was not forbidden in this case, unlike the casino game, where the use of computers is indeed against the rules). So, if you want a complete analogy, imagine, that someone is counting cards, and then telling you how to play. Would you be a cheater if you took their advice?
Quote: weaselmanThus, she is not a cheater any more than a card counter is.
I have a different opinion. Casino blackjack is a well-regulated game with clearly stated rules. A bet or a challenge among friends is a different matter. It would be a sad world if any way to get ahead as long as it didn't violate any rules was considered socially acceptable. Fortunately, there are still some people where a verbal agreement or a handshake means something.
Does the prize change your perception of what is or is not cheating? For example, if she had not received money for the correct answer, and instead only received a smile and an "atta girl" from you, would you still be upset that she didn't get the answer on her own?
In addition, does the value of the prize create "degrees" to the aspect of cheating, so to speak? Would you have been more upset if you had to give her $100 instead of $10? Would you have been less upset if you had to give her only $1?
Quote: tsmithDoes the prize change your perception of what is or is not cheating? For example, if she had not received money for the correct answer, and instead only received a smile and an "atta girl" from you, would you still be upset that she didn't get the answer on her own?
When someone cheats or steals from another human being they have broken a covenant against his/her fellow man. Such an act tears at the fabric of society. Even to cheat at a game where no money is involved still tears the fabric that binds all humanity together. So, yes, I would still be upset if no money was involved. However, it would not be as great a sin. When money becomes involved she not only cheated but stole as well.
Quote: tsmithIn addition, does the value of the prize create "degrees" to the aspect of cheating, so to speak? Would you have been more upset if you had to give her $100 instead of $10? Would you have been less upset if you had to give her only $1?
It is hard to put into words. Once you steal the first penny you have committed an act of theft against your fellow man. For that, you owe a debt to society. Regarding the amount, that is what is owed against the person you stole from. So if the amount of money was 10x as much, I would be 10x as angry about the money itself. However, I'm also bothered by the act itself, not the loss of money. So it is a combination. If forced to put numbers to it, I would say my level of anger is log(100+x), where x is the number of dollars involved.
What if the waitress had said, "Rydell High!" and then added, "But the dealer told me the answer, so I can't take your money because I really didn't win it"? Would that have mitigated the act of cheating or would it not have been cheating at all? Would you have given her the 10-spot anyway as a reward for being honest about cheating? (or is that an oxymoron?)
I'm asking these questions because I had a similar discussion about a year ago, about some scam artists who were putting fake charity kettles on corners at Christmastime. A lot of people said, "So what? They're only getting maybe a buck from everyone, no big deal," but I then asked, "Which is worse? Taking a dollar from 1,000 people or taking $1,000 from one person? They have still stolen $1,000, no matter how you divide it up."
You do bring up an interesting question about the charity Christmas kettles. Stealing $1 from 1000 people, and $1000 from one are both deplorable. I will only say that looking at it from a utility of money perspective, assuming equal wealth of all victims, stealing $1,000 from one person is worse.
Quote: WizardI have a different opinion. Casino blackjack is a well-regulated game with clearly stated rules. A bet or a challenge among friends is a different matter.
She is not your friend though, is she? If she were, I might have agreed with you then. But she is not, so you have no right to assume that her "default assumptions" about the bet rules are the same as yours. Anything that's not stated explicitly is fair game.
Quote: weaselmanAnything that's not stated explicitly is fair game.
That is simply where we disagree. For what it is worth, I think you would make a good attorney.
Do we want friendly bets, even with the Wizard, to require negotiating a contract first?
I tend to agree, and would like to expand upon a point I made earlier about hole-carding.Quote: weaselmanAnything that's not stated explicitly is fair game.
I think its fair to say that players who hole-card realize that the casino does not want them to do it, and that it's not "in the spirit of the game."
So why is hole-carding legal? Personally, I think it's because it's impossible to prove. Or extremely difficult.
Similarly, the waitress getting the answer from the dealer was "not in the spirit of the game." But is that what really happened? How can you prove it?
While it seems far-fetched, it's entirely possible that the waitress was thinking of the answer, sounding it out, and not even focused on the dealer.
If you ask that waitress if she got the answer from the dealer, and she denied it, what next?
For what it's worth, I realize I'm grasping at straws. I also realize that I've flip-flopped on this topic several times.
Quote: WizardThat is simply where we disagree. For what it is worth, I think you would make a good attorney.
Thank you, I'll take it as a compliment.
But can you explain what in your view is the difference between what this woman did and card counting? I remember you mentioning bets between friends, but, once again, she is not your friend, she does not even know you, so there is no reason to assume that her idea of "fair game" and "having fun" is the same as yours.
Quote: weaselmanBut can you explain what in your view is the difference between what this woman did and card counting? I remember you mentioning bets between friends, but, once again, she is not your friend, she does not even know you, so there is no reason to assume that her idea of "fair game" and "having fun" is the same as yours.
It should not be necessary to think of every possible contingency in a contract for a simple transaction between two people, whether strangers or not. Imagine the headache it you had to put every deal you ever make in writing, including babysitters, grass cutters, house cleaners. There is something to be said for honor. You pay me this and I will do that, and the deal is sealed with a handshake. That is the way I do business.
When dealing with a well-regulated business there already is a contact. There are thousands of laws about how gaming is conducted in the state of Nevada and a regulatory body to back them up, just a phone call away. The contact in blackjack is the dealer deals cards and the player can play them however he wishes as long as he doesn't use a "device" to assist him. Despite the fact that card counting is well known, there is nothing in the rules forbidding it.
Quote: WizardIt should not be necessary to think of every possible contingency in a contract for a simple transaction between two people, whether strangers or not. Imagine the headache it you had to put every deal you ever make in writing, including babysitters, grass cutters, house cleaners. There is something to be said for honor. You pay me this and I will do that, and the deal is sealed with a handshake. That is the way I do business.
I agree, and I think that says a lot about yout character (all of it good). But it also leaves you open to being cheated, as you've amply demonstrated. So maybe you should consider statting a few simple rules when playing trivia with the waitresses. Nothing as elaborate as a contract, but a simple "No lifelines, no asking, no looking it up: what's the name of the ship in the first Alien movie?"
That might spare you much frustration with petty cheaters.
Quote: NareedNothing as elaborate as a contract, but a simple "No lifelines, no asking, no looking it up: what's the name of the ship in the first Alien movie?"
That might spare you much frustration with petty cheaters.
The Nostromo!
Seriously, thanks for all the kind words. I've done trivia for tips hundreds of times and would hate to even state those simple rules. Unlike some people, I believe a code of honor is implied. Sometimes I see a waitress solicit help from somebody else, which I quickly cut off. However, after my trust was just abused there will be no more "final answer?" prompts from me. It will be the first thing out of the mouth that counts.
Quote: WizardThe Nostromo!
Yes. But it was discussed in the forum recently...
Quote:Seriously, thanks for all the kind words.
You're welcome. And you've earned them.
Quote:I've done trivia for tips hundreds of times and would hate to even state those simple rules. Unlike some people, I believe a code of honor is implied.
I don't disagree, but I think you can't assume other people will act honorably, or even that their definition of honor matches yours. Some poeple would regard outside help as acceptable.
Quote: zippyboyO M G people. Counting cards is NOT cheating. If you're playing at third base, and someone else is using a computer or abacus to keep a running tally, then mouthing the results to you like this CW did, then THAT would be cheating. Anyone who says counting is cheating is just envious that they don't have the brainpower to do it themselves.
Counting cards at blackjack is no more cheating than being 7 feet tall is cheating in basketball.
If counting is legal, then why can't I use a computer to do it? It's clearly illegal when proven, correct?
Quote: DJTeddyBearI tend to agree, and would like to expand upon a point I made earlier about hole-carding.
I think its fair to say that players who hole-card realize that the casino does not want them to do it, and that it's not "in the spirit of the game."
So why is hole-carding legal? Personally, I think it's because it's impossible to prove. Or extremely difficult.
Hole carding is not illegal because they offered it with their sloppy behavior. Card counting is not offered, rather just taken.
Quote: WizardIt should not be necessary to think of every possible contingency in a contract for a simple transaction between two people, whether strangers or not. Imagine the headache it you had to put every deal you ever make in writing, including babysitters, grass cutters, house cleaners.
I hired a babysitter once, just the way you describe. You watch my kids, I pay you X bucks per hour.
Was really surprised to find the kitchen sink full of dirty dishes when I came home. I assumed she would clean up after herself, she assumed it was not her job ...
Quote: weaselmanShe is not your friend though, is she? If she were, I might have agreed with you then. But she is not, so you have no right to assume that her "default assumptions" about the bet rules are the same as yours. Anything that's not stated explicitly is fair game.
In a more perfect world, everyone should be your friend until they prove otherwise.
Quote: weaselmanI hired a babysitter once, just the way you describe. You watch my kids, I pay you X bucks per hour.
Was really surprised to find the kitchen sink full of dirty dishes when I came home. I assumed she would clean up after herself, she assumed it was not her job ...
I can't feel much sympathy for you. Was it in the contract that she had to clean her own dishes? After all, anything that's not stated explicitly is fair game.
Quote: weaselmanI assumed she would clean up after herself, she assumed it was not her job ...
So now what kind of contract do you make babysitters sign before they get the job? How many pages?
Quote: Wizard... However, after my trust was just abused there will be no more "final answer?" prompts from me. It will be the first thing out of the mouth that counts.
I can see it now:
Wizard: I'll add $10 to your tip if you can answer this trivia question. What (something clever) ?
Waitress: What did you say?
Wizard: Sorry, that's the wrong answer. You lose.
;-)
(Posted in the mood of other nitpicking answers in this thread.)
Quote: WizardAlso, Nick, I didn't mean to drag your name into this. You can see that I kept you anonymous.
You got cheated Wizard. However, I think you and Nick should be square, since you actually outted him in your original post:)
Quote: Wizard's Original PostRecently I went to a casino with a couple friends. After some other activities we looked around for a table to gamble. It was at this time that one said friends confessed something that happened the last time we played at the same casino. Here is how it happened:
The cocktail waitress came by and I asked for something. While she was gone I tried to get Nick to wager on whether she could answer a trivia question, but we couldn't agree on anything...
Some questions to reflect on:
Do you believe that there is a standard of right and wrong in this world?
How is it determined?
What right do we have to expect others to abide by our standard?
Should we abide by the standards of others, even if our personal standard is different?
Quote: AyecarumbaYou got cheated Wizard. However, I think you and Nick should be square, since you actually outted him in your original post:)
Oops. I didn't realize that I let a "Nick" slip out. Sorry about that.
I'll leave the deeper questions up to FrG.
