Cheating at Trivia
Poll
 | 12 votes (29.26%) | ||
| | 22 votes (53.65%) | ||
| | 3 votes (7.31%) | ||
| | 4 votes (9.75%) |
41 members have voted
The cocktail waitress came by and I asked for something. While she was gone I tried to get Nick to wager on whether she could answer a trivia question, but we couldn't agree on anything. The one I decided to go with was, "What was the name of the High School in the movie/musical Grease?" When the waitress came back, I gave her an unconditional dollar and offered an additional $10 for the answer to said question. I thought it was a tough question she had only about a 10% chance to get it right. However, she did, and I paid the $10.
Fast forward about two weeks and said friend confesses that he saw the dealer mouth the answer to the dealer. This makes me a little upset. Especially after the many debates on this site about how the dealers are not our enemy and that the least use of advantage play being unethical. I feel the dealer basically cheated, stealing my money to give to the waitress. This kind of supplying of answers to a trivia game results in a huge scandal in the 50's.
That is how I feel. What about you? The question for the poll is whether the dealer and waitress acted unethically.
Mark
from someone else is blatantly cheating. (no Dan, counting
cards is not cheating)
Quote: WizardFast forward about two weeks and said friend confesses that he saw the dealer mouth the answer to the dealer. This makes me a little upset. Especially after the many debates on this site about how the dealers are not our enemy and that the least use of advantage play being unethical.
Were ground rules laid out?
Anyway, as in a prior poll, it's understood she has to know the answer, not get it from somewhere or someone else. So in that sense they cheated.
Still, the dealer may have had a host of motives. Maybe he (she?) likes the waitress, thinks the waitress is habitually under-tipped, resented making a game out of a fellow employee's tip (I'm not suggesting you did, but that the dealer might see it that way), maybe the dealer didn't like you, maybe he wanted to play, etc etc. So don't read too much into it.
Quote:This kind of supplying of answers to a trivia game results in a huge scandal in the 50's.
Pretty good movie, too <w> But the rules were quite clear back then.
BTW the answer, since you didn't post it, is Rydell High (or Ridell?) I must have seen that movie 57,000 times back in the early VCR Era. I had the record, and I've been a fan of Olivia Newton John since then.
Cheating? Well, I guess it wasn't in the spirit of the game, but it seemed to me that this sounds like a sisterhood type of thing where the dealer helped the waitress earn a better tip.
Mind you, you're talking about a tip. This is far different than a dealer who helps the evil casino to your money.
Sorry to say it, but this sounds an awful lot like the bet about the red light (stop sign?) where the other person stepped out in the street.
Just because you didn't think of every contingency, doesn't mean you can complain about it afterwards.
Remember: Its all in the spirit of fun.
Quote: DJTeddyBearSorry to say it, but this sounds an awful lot like the bet about the red light (stop sign?) where the other person stepped out in the street.
Just because you didn't think of every contingency, doesn't mean you can complain about it afterwards.
Remember: Its all in the spirit of fun.
Yes, I find it very similar to the stop sign bet. With a friendly wager or challenge I shouldn't have to list every possible contingency. In this case I would argue it is obvious that she can't receive help. All but the criminally insane have something called a conscience. Looking for loopholes in every situation to get what you want may not break any laws, but does violate the karma between all people.
Yes, it was in the spirit of fun, but it turns not fun when cheating is introduced, at least in my opinion.
Quote: DJTeddyBearJust because you didn't think of every contingency, doesn't mean you can complain about it afterwards.
Everybody knows the rules, they shouldn't have to be
explained. It wasn't Cash Cab, where she's allowed
a shout out. She cheated.
Plus I'm shocked that you made this bet to begin with, you had nothing to gain. As a wise man once said "it's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet."
Mark
But please don't get discouraged by the riff raff of society. Offhand bets like this make life fun and bring smiles all around if it weren't for the low-life underhanded cheaters of the world. The ol' stopsign bet couple months ago come to mind.
On a trivia tv show it would be wrong but this is in a casino. You've playfully made a bet with The Tits after having given her the obligatory one dollar. If the dealer is male, he will indeed mouth the answer to The Tits. If the dealer is female, she "probably" will also. Its a festive situation in a casino between playful and slightly inebriated men and a tired CW with sore feet.Quote: WizardEspecially after the many debates on this site about how the dealers are not our enemy and that the least use of advantage play being unethical.
So, shake the cider out of your ear and have a laugh at yourselves.
The ten dollars you put in the betting circle is subject to ethical behavior. The ten dollars you put in play between some slightly snockered men having fun with some sweet young thing is subject to "all is fair in love and war". I'm just surprized the waitress didn't take the ten spot and then tattle on the dealer!
Quote: FleaStiffYou've playfully made a bet with The Tits
'The Tits?' My, somebody has no respect for women.
Hahaha. Well said, FleaStiff! +1Quote: FleaStiffOn a trivia tv show it would be wrong but this is in a casino. You've playfully made a bet with The Tits after having given her the obligatory one dollar. If the dealer is male, he will indeed mouth the answer to The Tits. If the dealer is female, she "probably" will also. Its a festive situation in a casino between playful and slightly inebriated men and a tired CW with sore feet.
So, shake the cider out of your ear and have a laugh at yourselves.
The ten dollars you put in the betting circle is subject to ethical behavior. The ten dollars you put in play between some slightly snockered men having fun with some sweet young thing is subject to "all is fair in love and war". I'm just surprized the waitress didn't take the ten spot and then tattle on the dealer!
*golf clap*
That's not true! My last girlfriend broke up with me and said I had no respect for her.... but I don't have the foggiest as to why she should think that... I told her lots of times she was my kind of broad.Quote: EvenBob'The Tits?' My, somebody has no respect for women.
Quote: WizardFast forward about two weeks and said friend confesses that he saw the dealer mouth the answer to the dealer.
That's not cheating, that's hole-carding. I'm pretty sure that hole-carding has been held to be legal in Nevada, but it could just be that the prosecutor didn't wanna deal with it (see James Grosjean). If the dealer accidentally flashes did you cheat? Same deal.
Damn. I was thinking about this while away from the computer, and "Hole Carding" jumped into my head. I rushed back to the computer to see this...Quote: heatherThat's not cheating, that's hole-carding.
Of course, this will lead us to the next argument: It may be similar to Hole-Carding, but I believe Hole-Carding with an accomplice has been ruled illegal. Correct me if I'm wrong....
Quote: RonCMost of us know right from wrong. People accepting bad behavior because "it wasn't a written or spoken rule" is unacceptable.
Couldn't have said it better myself. That goes for inside a bar too.
Also, Nick, I didn't mean to drag your name into this. You can see that I kept you anonymous. However, I welcome your participation and if there are any details I overlooked, feel free to add them.
Here is another story.
Once at the Treasure Island there was a shoe-shine guy outside the men's restroom. I had nice shoes on. As I left the guy laid on the pitch a bit heavy trying to get me to do a shine. So I said I would pay for a shine if he could answer a trivia question. I think the question was the name of the computer in the movie 2001. So he pretends to think about it. Then he notices a "friend" in the casino and asks to say "hi" really quick. I suspect foul play, but didn't want to say "no," for it would have implied I thought he would cheat, and I'm one to always trust someone until they prove unworthy of it.
So he excuses himself. Talks to said friend for about a minute. I think the friend does some texting. When he comes back, viola, he suddenly knows the answer. So I said, "Did your friend tell you the answer?" He said "no." So I said that it seemed fishy but I would have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
During the entire shire I pontificate about how society is held together by honesty and ethics, and I'm sure that an elderly man such as himself (he was around 65) would agree with that, and how that I'm sure it would bother his conscience to lie over an $8 shoe shine.
When it is all said and done and I reach into my wallet to pay him he says, while looking at the floor, "I can't take your money -- I lied." So I thanked him for his honesty and left -- without paying. Usually when I retell this story the listener will say that I should have paid anyway, to reward the man for his honesty, but I have no regrets. He should feel badly for what he did, and the free shine was the punishment.
The consequences of lying need to be made clear. Yes, a little white lie has consequences too, if only in your heart. You can go to extremes and talk about the little boy who cried wolf, but really it's about your own image and integrity. That waitress who you paid $10 to now has little integrity. She lied. Boobs and all, my respect for her goes down to almost nothing. She makes money from tips and from her job. She didn't need to rip you for $10.
Anyway, it's important to call out lying and cheating to keep people honest. It's not like our politicians or leaders help in this regard, at all.
Quote: WizardSo I thanked him for his honesty and left -- without paying. Usually when I retell this story the listener will say that I should have paid anyway, to reward the man for his honesty, but I have no regrets. He should feel badly for what he did, and the free shine was the punishment.
One way to accomplish both objectives would be to return the next time you need a shine, maybe in a couple of weeks, and patronize the guy. That would also serve to reinforce the lesson learned.
Quote: WizardEspecially after the many debates on this site about how the dealers are not our enemy and that the least use of advantage play being unethical. I feel the dealer basically cheated, stealing my money to give to the waitress.
I think our many debates have shown that dealers are our allies, not our enemies. They may not be our friends but they are not our enemies. Dealers have limited authority and must follow rules but dealers do work for tips and dealers certainly know that tips from winners are far more likely than tips from losers. So within the confines of keeping their jobs, they will try to get tips. Sure they have divided attention but they soon learn how to handle neophytes and experts simultaneously.
The ethics on this hinges on the difference between a betting circle and the CW's tray. The toke box is part of the gaming revenue and is under camera and lockbox protections. The Commission doesn't care about a group of semi-snockered young men getting cider in their ear after making a trivia bet with some half-naked Tray Lizard. Now if this had been a trivia contest in a bar where the winner was facing a big jackpot or something that might be a different matter. So while I would indeed fault the dealer on general principles, I think I'd support the friendly banter bet in the spirit in which it was made, particularly since the CW doesn't really know if the dealer is right or not.
Quote: SanchoPanzaOne way to accomplish both objectives would be to return the next time you need a shine, maybe in a couple of weeks, and patronize the guy. That would also serve to reinforce the lesson learned.
Agreed, that would be a good idea. However, I don't think he works there any longer.
Quote: WizardYes, I find it very similar to the stop sign bet. With a friendly wager or challenge I shouldn't have to list every possible contingency. In this case I would argue it is obvious that she can't receive help. All but the criminally insane have something called a conscience. Looking for loopholes in every situation to get what you want may not break any laws, but does violate the karma between all people.
Yes, it was in the spirit of fun, but it turns not fun when cheating is introduced, at least in my opinion.
I think you are being too harsh. Some people find it fun to look for and exploit precisely this kind of loopholes in a friendly bet.
If you make a bet with a person, who knows you, and knows how you feel about this, and still attempts something like this, then yeah, it's cheating. But if the other person does not know you, she has the right to have fun as much as you do. I am one of those people btw. I don't need the bet to make ten bucks, but it would be fun to find and exploit a loophole, and win a bet in an unexpected way (I am referring to your stop sign bet). If I knew how you feel about it ahead of time, I would just rejected the bet, but otherwise, I would enjoy doing something like what your friend did then.
Quote: marksolbergI don't think there was ever an intent to cheat. As you said, you did not expect the waitress to know the answer. If I'm the dealer at that table and knew the answer I would probably relay the information also. By doing so he gave you a more interesting unexpected result. Im pretty sure it wasnt an oceans eleven type plan. The waitress surprised you and I'd say it was a good surprise. The only person at fault was your so called friend. First of all he didn't alert you at the time it happened. Then he told you when it was too late to do anything.. If he had kept the secret you would not have been upset, all would be right in the world. His motivation was clearly to aggravate and annoy you. Plus while you were gone he was saying something about you gaining weight. Next time you see him give him a big ol punch in the eye.
Plus I'm shocked that you made this bet to begin with, you had nothing to gain. As a wise man once said "it's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet."
Mark
He made the bet because he's the most interesting man in the world. Pretty cool. My question is why the dealer took the risk of only mouthing instead of yelling out the answer. Maybe he thought that would constitute card cou.......cheating. And, no, I have no reason to kiss his rear end, so to speak.
The second story the Wiz shared gets to the heart of why I get a little depressed hearing about this kind of stuff. Society is indeed built upon honesty. The dealer and the CW really should have said something, as probably any of the bystanders should have as well. I hope that waitress is searching the casino looking for the Wiz to give him back his $10 after a sleepless night wrestling with her conscience.
Quote: NareedBTW the answer, since you didn't post it, is Rydell High (or Ridell?) I must have seen that movie 57,000 times back in the early VCR Era. I had the record, and I've been a fan of Olivia Newton John since then.
OK, this opens another opportunity for a trivia question. Olivia Newton-John's grandfather won a Nobel prize. What was his name and in what field did he win the prize? Bonus for knowing what work he won the prize for. In the spirit of this thread, answers must be from your own prior knowledge.
Quote: SanchoPanzaOne way to accomplish both objectives would be to return the next time you need a shine, maybe in a couple of weeks, and patronize the guy. That would also serve to reinforce the lesson learned.
I hope I would have tipped him a buck. Remember, tips are not included in freebies there.
Quote: weaselmanI think you are being too harsh. Some people find it fun to look for and exploit precisely this kind of loopholes in a friendly bet.
If you make a bet with a person, who knows you, and knows how you feel about this, and still attempts something like this, then yeah, it's cheating. But if the other person does not know you, she has the right to have fun as much as you do. I am one of those people btw. I don't need the bet to make ten bucks, but it would be fun to find and exploit a loophole, and win a bet in an unexpected way (I am referring to your stop sign bet). If I knew how you feel about it ahead of time, I would just rejected the bet, but otherwise, I would enjoy doing something like what your friend did then.
Actually, this not a traditional bet because she does not pay if she loses. She is cheating purely for gain, not even avoiding a loss.
And all while holding your $1 tip in her greedy big or little hands. America, Ameri...........
If a bj dealer unknowingly flashes his hole card to you, do you feel obligated to tell him about it too? If you are counting, and the pit boss asks, will you admit it?
Quote: dmActually, this not a traditional bet because she does not pay if she loses. She is cheating purely for gain, not even avoiding a loss.
And all while holding your $1 tip in her greedy big or little hands. America, Ameri...........
Not sure how that matters. It's just not an even money bet. Kinda like playing BJ with a coupon.
Quote: weaselmanA man approaches a bartender, and offers to bet ten bucks that he can spit accross the bar into a narrow bottle on the shelf. The bartender accepts, and, of course, wins. The man offers double or nothing. An hour later, the bar is covered with spit, and the bartender is 500 bucks richer. The man finally gives up, and the bartender asks him why he would make such an impossible bet. The man explains, that another guy bet him a thousand that he could not spit all over the bar without getting his ass kicked. Was he cheating?
If a bj dealer unknowingly flashes his hole card to you, do you feel obligated to tell him about it too? If you are counting, and the pit boss asks, will you admit it?
Well, he paid the bartender $500 to not kick his ass. Was he the only customer? He'd pretty much better be certain he was.
Quote: weaselmanNot sure how that matters. It's just not an even money bet. Kinda like playing BJ with a coupon.
Great point - 0 is not equal to 10. And most BJ coupons require a matching bet greater than 0. If they don't, they require having dropped a bunch of money to the coupon donor in the past.
Quote: dmGreat point - 0 is not equal to 10. And most BJ coupons require a matching bet greater than 0. If they don't, they require having dropped a bunch of money to the coupon donor in the past.
So, what's your point? Are you saying, that if it was a "traditional" bet, then she would not be cheating? In my book, you either are cheating or you are not, it's black and white, and does not depend on the amount of money on the line.
Quote: DocOK, this opens another opportunity for a trivia question. Olivia Newton-John's grandfather won a Nobel prize. What was his name and in what field did he win the prize? Bonus for knowing what work he won the prize for. In the spirit of this thread, answers must be from your own prior knowledge.
I didn't even know she had a grandfather.
Quote: WizardI think the question was the name of the computer in the movie 2001.
You keep not supplying the answers.
Well, this one is too easy, so instead I'll ask: what was the name of the other computer in the movie 2010?
Actually, she probably had two of them, but (to my knowledge) only one of them won a Nobel prize.Quote: NareedI didn't even know she had a grandfather.
About tipping the shoe shine mine. Nah. I think if I tipped then he wouldn't feel that he paid his penance.
About the CW free rolling on the $10, I don't see how that matters. Cheating is cheating.
Finally, I think I said this in the "friendly bet" thread, but I'm not saying there is no place for a "barroom trick." A good example is the movie Lucky You, where a guy made a small bet that he could cross the poker room without ever touching the ground. The wager is accepted and he scoots his chair across the room as he sits in it. If somebody proposes that he can do something that seems near impossible, then a trick should be expected, and the bet the price of the entertainment to see how it is done. Just because such things happen, doesn't live everyone license to cheat in every situation. You have to take the situation in context. Here is was quite plausible that the CW would know the answer to that question. It was asked in the spirit of fun, like on Cash Cab.
Quote: kpIt is unknown if the waitress already knew the answer and did not need the help.
It took her quite a while, about a minute, to come up with the answer. Meanwhile she seemed to be intently looking at the dealer. Nick's confession completely explains why she took so long and mumbled a few similar responses that were not quite right.
Quote: DocActually, she probably had two of them, but (to my knowledge) only one of them won a Nobel prize.
Sure, most people have two (some case are weird). What I mean is that until you asked the question, I'd never given the matter any thought. She also must have had two parents (no known human exceptions there), but I wouldn't know who they were.
Quote: WizardAbout Olivia's grandfather, I have no idea. If forced to guess I would say something to do with aviation, because I know some parts related to safety were invented in Australia, like the Black Box and inflatable slide.
Oh, that I do know. Libby was actually born in England and moved, with her family, to Australia while still a child. But I've looked up the answer, too, and this part is misleading.
Anyway, the Nobel prizes are given for economics, physics, chemistry, medicine (the category is actually physiology or medicine), literature and "peace." The science prizes are often awarded for theoretical discoveries rather than practical applications.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffHey Mike if you were in my situation would you have kept silent to prevent an awkward moment, or would you have tattled on the spot?
I would have reprimanded the dealer ASAP, "no coaching!" You were there, you could see that it took a while to convey the right answer, so there was plenty of time to jump in. Then again, I have been in awkward moments before, and didn't take the most morally upright course of action sometimes. No hard feelings against you.
For the benefit of others, here is more or less how it went down, with a long pause before each CW response.
Wiz: What was the name of the high school in Grease?
CW: Rypell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Dypell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Ryvell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Rydell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Yes?
Wiz: I can't believe it, here is your $10.
Quote: Wizard
Wiz: What was the name of the high school in Grease?
CW: Rypell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Dypell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Ryvell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Rydell?
Wiz: Final answer?
CW: Yes?
Wiz: I can't believe it, here is your $10.
That just made laugh out loud. The fact that you didn't figure out she was getting the answer elsewhere kind of makes me laugh. I'm sorry, this is a buyer beware situation. You were cheated, but you were CLEARLY cheated... you should have seen that from a mile away.
