Poll

1 vote (3.44%)
2 votes (6.89%)
3 votes (10.34%)
4 votes (13.79%)
2 votes (6.89%)
6 votes (20.68%)
5 votes (17.24%)
1 vote (3.44%)
16 votes (55.17%)
3 votes (10.34%)

29 members have voted

itsmejeff
itsmejeff
Joined: Aug 6, 2012
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Mission146
May 5th, 2021 at 7:02:34 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

also - this process isnt necessarily UNFAIR right?

because thats what were essentially worried about when weve created these laws

but this process somehow increases the players advantage?

which isnt necessarily unfair?

or since its NOT random it IS unfair?


It is not necessarily "unfair", but the game gives a false impression of how the game is actually working. Selecting hits to be "bombs" after the fact makes the typical gambler believe they are having more luck than they would in another game that has a bonus outside of the balls. People do believe in "hot machines".
Last edited by: itsmejeff on May 5, 2021
ThatDonGuy
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Mission146
May 5th, 2021 at 7:06:48 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is my video documenting my case that Keno Exposion is gaffed and a violation of NRS 14.050.5


First of all, it's 14.040, section 5, not 14.050.

Second, as I said before, if the 20 numbers are drawn first, with each of the C(80,20) combinations being equally likely (as they appear to be), and then the numbers for the bomb locations are determined, I don't see the violation - the bombs are not part of "the live gambling game" unless you know of a live-action version of Keno where they draw 3 numbers from a separate set of numbers from 1 to 80 (as opposed to drawing three numbers along with the original 20).
heatmap
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Mission146
May 5th, 2021 at 12:53:36 PM permalink
what really gets me here is

were just using our own words here and legally these words have no meaning

there is no such thing as rigged legally speaking

there is no such thing as gaffed legally speaking

there is such thing as cheating - and only a patron can cheat

there is such thing as FAIR. and thats the word we should be using. because these are the standards that usually the slot machine manufacturers must listen to

what i think is happening here is a SECONDARY DECSION is being made as well as DEPENDENT random number generation. The player is playing the machine - they pick their numbers - and then once those numbers are picked those numbers are used to choose where the bombs are placed.
CrystalMath
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Mission146
May 5th, 2021 at 6:12:26 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

First of all, it's 14.040, section 5, not 14.050.

Second, as I said before, if the 20 numbers are drawn first, with each of the C(80,20) combinations being equally likely (as they appear to be), and then the numbers for the bomb locations are determined, I don't see the violation - the bombs are not part of "the live gambling game" unless you know of a live-action version of Keno where they draw 3 numbers from a separate set of numbers from 1 to 80 (as opposed to drawing three numbers along with the original 20).



In Vegas, a die is a die even if it doesn’t represent an actual game played in a casino. For instance, IGT used to have an I Love Lucy game with a die in the top box that was used in the bonus. That die was fair.

In this game, they show placing 3 spots on a keno grid, so hitting those 3 spots should follow the proper probability.
I heart Crystal Math.
Wizard
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Mission146
May 5th, 2021 at 7:25:32 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

First of all, it's 14.040, section 5, not 14.050.



Thanks.

Quote:

Second, as I said before, if the 20 numbers are drawn first, with each of the C(80,20) combinations being equally likely (as they appear to be), and then the numbers for the bomb locations are determined, I don't see the violation - the bombs are not part of "the live gambling game" unless you know of a live-action version of Keno where they draw 3 numbers from a separate set of numbers from 1 to 80 (as opposed to drawing three numbers along with the original 20).



I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. The typical player isn't going to care about the computer code of the game. He will certain numbers, those marked with a bomb, more likely to be drawn. That is a violation. Every number should have an equal chance.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
onenickelmiracle
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Mission146
May 5th, 2021 at 7:39:22 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

what really gets me here is

were just using our own words here and legally these words have no meaning

there is no such thing as rigged legally speaking

there is no such thing as gaffed legally speaking

there is such thing as cheating - and only a patron can cheat

there is such thing as FAIR. and thats the word we should be using. because these are the standards that usually the slot machine manufacturers must listen to

what i think is happening here is a SECONDARY DECSION is being made as well as DEPENDENT random number generation. The player is playing the machine - they pick their numbers - and then once those numbers are picked those numbers are used to choose where the bombs are placed.

There is a regulation about violating the integrity of gaming, but it is ignored because gaming works in the dark.No matter what they do or a casino does, they have their excuses, not that they're responding to it.
I am a robot.
Wizard
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MrCasinoGamesonenickelmiracleJoemanCrystalMathDRichMission146Keeneonemiplet
May 5th, 2021 at 10:13:39 PM permalink
Let the record show I filed a complaint to Gaming by Email today.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
camapl
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Mission146
August 7th, 2021 at 4:54:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Let the record show I filed a complaint to Gaming by Email today.



I probably know the answer already… Any response from Gaming?

Is my question above sufficient to justify bumping this thread so I might weigh in? 😂

I think the question here is as follows: What aspect of live keno is subject to the statute? Just the balls? Just the layout (grid)? Or both?

If I were to say, “Just the balls,” then the bombs and fragments in this game are events outside of the statute.
As there are no eggs used in any live keno game, using the eggs in Caveman Keno as an example is irrelevant, unless I could know for certain that the game was only approved because the eggs are fairly drawn. In other words, maybe the eggs weren’t required to be fair, and the game maker just decided to program the game that way…

If I were to say either, “Just the layout,” or “Both,” then I would agree to both of the following statements:
1) This game violates the statute.
2) Multi-Strike Video Poker also violates the statute, as the “Free Card” is a) called a card and b) is dealt/appears in a position normally taken by one of the other cards in the normal deck of the game (I.e., in the layout).

I won’t say which of the above I would pick. I leave that to Gaming (or more preferably, to an AG Opinion).

My druthers, however, are a different matter and have nothing to do with any statute!

Do I like having games that can be calculated without placing a single bet? Absolutely! Do I like that games such as Triple Trouble VP, Gold Mine Bonus VP, Triple Trouble Keno, Triple Diamond Keno, the game in the OP, etc. get around the requirements? H*** no! Would I prefer that all games cited Payback Percentages and Probabilities or Odds of certain occurrences? H*** yeah!

Does the feature in this game bother me? Resounding YES!!!
* Actual results may vary.
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Mission146camapl
August 7th, 2021 at 6:59:08 PM permalink
Quote: camapl

I probably know the answer already… Any response from Gaming?

Is my question above sufficient to justify bumping this thread so I might weigh in? 😂

I think the question here is as follows: What aspect of live keno is subject to the statute? Just the balls? Just the layout (grid)? Or both?

If I were to say, “Just the balls,” then the bombs and fragments in this game are events outside of the statute.
As there are no eggs used in any live keno game, using the eggs in Caveman Keno as an example is irrelevant, unless I could know for certain that the game was only approved because the eggs are fairly drawn. In other words, maybe the eggs weren’t required to be fair, and the game maker just decided to program the game that way…

If I were to say either, “Just the layout,” or “Both,” then I would agree to both of the following statements:
1) This game violates the statute.
2) Multi-Strike Video Poker also violates the statute, as the “Free Card” is a) called a card and b) is dealt/appears in a position normally taken by one of the other cards in the normal deck of the game (I.e., in the layout).

I won’t say which of the above I would pick. I leave that to Gaming (or more preferably, to an AG Opinion).

My druthers, however, are a different matter and have nothing to do with any statute!

Do I like having games that can be calculated without placing a single bet? Absolutely! Do I like that games such as Triple Trouble VP, Gold Mine Bonus VP, Triple Trouble Keno, Triple Diamond Keno, the game in the OP, etc. get around the requirements? H*** no! Would I prefer that all games cited Payback Percentages and Probabilities or Odds of certain occurrences? H*** yeah!

Does the feature in this game bother me? Resounding YES!!!



ive been informed in another thread (by the wizard himself) there was no response
Wizard
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Mission146
August 8th, 2021 at 6:01:05 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

ive been informed in another thread (by the wizard himself) there was no response



This is true.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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