Evidence in favor of skill games
These videos have popped into my YouTube feed, and they're crazy popular. The kids are spending so much money, for garbage. Some of the people that post these videos own arcades, so they sometimes can even set the videos up, since they own the machines. Lots of click bait, but people still enjoy the videos. Have to imagine the kids are going to arcades trying these games, trying to profit. If the casinos just put these same machines on the floor, but made them high stakes, I think people would like trying. Instead of $1/game, make it $5 or more, then put giant prizes inside.
About the video, the kids are saying these machines are due, alluding to the machine sabotaging perfect play. Not sure if they're right or if just gambler's fallacy. Don't know anything about the machines.
These kids are so lucky they've stumbled onto a YouTube jackpot. All these views I'm sure they're rolling in money from this stupid stuff. It'll probably be a fad though and one day all the attention is gone along with the money. The new rock stars for now.
All they ever say is these games are rigged. I'm interested in learning if somehow they are, just to see if they're really rigged like they say or gamblers fallacy when they claim some of these games are due. Good video opportunity for Wizard if he can get some research on them. They might or might not be gambling age, but it's not gambling what they're doing with the claw games, key games, coin pusher games, etc. When they say rigged, they mean the machines are sabotaging the skill element, and when they say due, they mean it isn't sabotaging the skill element or even giving it to them. I've seen them say things like people believe myths about slots, like it takes enough money, then gives away the jackpot, or won't award, because it needs money.
They post lottery ticket videos where they spend a fortune, and reveal the results. Heard that's a YouTube fad now. Not even sure if these kids are of legal age to even buy them. But they're purchasing them from unobserved machines.
If the companies can find any of these popular youtubers 21, it will probably give the skill games a giant nudge into acceptance, if they post playing the Vegas skill machines and can keep the audience. They might be able to get them playing a demo and still be legal. I think there is some pay to play with slot videos, but it's not talked about. Think the FTC now wants such endorsement labeled as ads, but haven't seen slot or these arcade videos with such disclaimers. I'm betting on skill games being successful based on the giant popularity of the arcade skill games on YouTube. The arcades look like mini casinos, no surprise they've groomed them for the casino when they're legal age 21. Same companies that make the slots make the arcade games.
Maybe the thing is, it's balanced in a way you don't suspect, like you said, at the correct time. Like if you could zoom in, you see 200 spaces left and right, but only one for the center. Since you can't see it, it seems as simple as could be, then you fail. Obviously like the claw game is controlled by the amount of air pressure, the other games can also be. The key master game, that blows my mind people would want to gamble on them, seems to be so hard. Let alone it supposedly cheats, but maybe it works on the same biased concept. The way I'm trying to understand them, wonder how they could be legal as skill, if randomness is the main obstacle, which makes it gambling.Quote: rudeboyoiI won a Nintendo DS on one of those stacker machines. Where they have lighted blocks and you got to stop them on top of eachother. It was $2/play. I won one on my 2nd try. So thought I'd play til I won another. $20 later I realized it was definitely rigged. I know I hit it at the correct time but it still didn't award me the prize. Like im guessing you got to hit it at the correct time. Then there's some small probability that it will then award you the prize.
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Just like the Wheel of Fortune, biased towards lower values, in other words, the wheel is not as it appears.
That last part is less true than it used to be. I mean, Konami has an arcade and a slot machine division, but IGT doesn't, and SciGames/Bally/WMS is only historically related to the Bally and Williams pinball companies of the past.Quote: onenickelmiracleThe arcades look like mini casinos, no surprise they've groomed them for the casino when they're legal age 21. Same companies that make the slots make the arcade games.
The real issue is that there's no regulation on arcade games. If it becomes something more than an infrequent amusement, and that the tokens spent on the machine yield something more than a de minimus prize in terms of tickets, then there's a clear public welfare concern in establishing that the machines aren't simply rigged. At a local bowling alley I once saw two guys with an entire basket of tickets camping out at the giant light wheel, the one where the lights go around quickly and you press the button to stop on the one red light at the top. The red light was worth 2000 tickets or $20 worth in the ticket store, each play was $2, and they had gotten it down to a much better than 1/10 chance of nailing that red light. The 2000 tickets took a long time to eject from the machine so they were just sitting there as I walked by, but they explained to me that they were going for the iPad at the gift shop worth $500. They were over halfway there and had only spent $100 or so on the game. But more generally, I'm not aware of any regulations on whether a game like that can automatically adjust itself if it detects the player is unusually-skilled. And introducing a meaningfully random element may run into the general prohibition on gambling.
Quote: MathExtremistThat last part is less true than it used to be. I mean, Konami has an arcade and a slot machine division, but IGT doesn't, and SciGames/Bally/WMS is only historically related to the Bally and Williams pinball companies of the past.
The real issue is that there's no regulation on arcade games. If it becomes something more than an infrequent amusement, and that the tokens spent on the machine yield something more than a de minimus prize in terms of tickets, then there's a clear public welfare concern in establishing that the machines aren't simply rigged. At a local bowling alley I once saw two guys with an entire basket of tickets camping out at the giant light wheel, the one where the lights go around quickly and you press the button to stop on the one red light at the top. The red light was worth 2000 tickets or $20 worth in the ticket store, each play was $2, and they had gotten it down to a much better than 1/10 chance of nailing that red light. The 2000 tickets took a long time to eject from the machine so they were just sitting there as I walked by, but they explained to me that they were going for the iPad at the gift shop worth $500. They were over halfway there and had only spent $100 or so on the game. But more generally, I'm not aware of any regulations on whether a game like that can automatically adjust itself if it detects the player is unusually-skilled. And introducing a meaningfully random element may run into the general prohibition on gambling.
I've seen "ringers" on that game at Dave n Busters before. They were definitely profitable. I hit the jackpot once with pure luck.
Played a claw game today, but it was free by scanning my receipt at Walmart. Learned from those YouTube videos to peek the side view and nailed a stuffed animal snake. Second time I've picked something up on that game and it couldn't hold on until the end, because it jerks and dropped them both times. The machine doesn't return to the drop box smoothly, definitely an unfair game even if free to play. I can hardly believe any prize can last in the its hold the way it jerks around shaking the claw on the return
I think I agree.Quote: MathextremistThe real issue is that there's no regulation on arcade games. If it becomes something more than an infrequent amusement, and that the tokens spent on the machine yield something more than a de minimus prize in terms of tickets, then there's a clear public welfare concern in establishing that the machines aren't simply rigged.
As for those redemption/prize games in the arcade, some are absolutely rigged, and others are absolutely fair. Typically the game operators can adjust things like game difficulty, target win/jackpot rate, value of a ticket, etc. If an operator thinks that players are winning too much on a certain game, they can open the machine, make adjustments and nerf it (equivalent to casinos slashing VP paytables). The Round 1 chain of arcades is said to have a notorious reputation for nerfing games on the spot when they see winners.
There is one oddity that I have noticed of late linking casinos and arcades together though; there has been a line of game releases that seem to follow this specific pattern:
(1) Gaming manufacturer WMS (now SG) licenses a movie or TV theme for a series of slot machines.
(2) The licensed theme has at least some success on casino floors.
(3) Some time later, arcade manufacturer Elaut licenses the same theme for a coin pusher game.
(4) The themed coin pusher game goes out to arcades and proves to be very popular.
Love your post. So nice you giving us this gift. Seriously sharing your brain with this post is like 80 google searches. You're a good example of why I loved this site from the beginning, so many brains contributing. Straub couldn't have done better with his tower of geniuses than having the site move into Revel.Quote: doughtakerIncredible first gained fame for its "Golden Tee Golf" arcade games long before they got into the slot business. Multimedia (now Everi) is most famous for its Tournevent slot tournament system, which recently got an add-on in the form of a license for the Fruit Ninja arcade game to be used in Tournevent. The only other companies I'm aware of that clearly have distinct arcade and gambling divisions right now are Konami and Sega Sammy (the latter having not yet entered the U.S. gambling market).
As for those redemption/prize games in the arcade, some are absolutely rigged, and others are absolutely fair. Typically the game operators can adjust things like game difficulty, target win/jackpot rate, value of a ticket, etc. If an operator thinks that players are winning too much on a certain game, they can open the machine, make adjustments and nerf it (equivalent to casinos slashing VP paytables). The Round 1 chain of arcades is said to have a notorious reputation for nerfing games on the spot when they see winners.
There is one oddity that I have noticed of late linking casinos and arcades together though; there has been a line of game releases that seem to follow this specific pattern:
(1) Gaming manufacturer WMS (now SG) licenses a movie or TV theme for a series of slot machines.
(2) The licensed theme has at least some success on casino floors.
(3) Some time later, arcade manufacturer Elaut licenses the same theme for a coin pusher game.
(4) The themed coin pusher game goes out to arcades and proves to be very popular.
