Sands Roulette
Poll
 | 1 vote (2.5%) | ||
| | 3 votes (7.5%) | ||
| | 2 votes (5%) | ||
| | 28 votes (70%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2.5%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2.5%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2.5%) | ||
| | 8 votes (20%) | ||
| | 1 vote (2.5%) | ||
| | 10 votes (25%) |
40 members have voted
The question for the poll is would you play Sands Roulette?
Maybe someone should recommend a happy hour for tiles with no commission- house would still win on copies
Quote: WizardofnothingThere is a joke in there somewhere or you are pulling are leg... adelson already has all 6-5 blackjack
Under my watch he had zero, not that I had much to do with it.
Quote: AyecarumbaSo there's "0" and "00", and now ???
I think "000."
Is that an even number?
Quote: Wizard"000."
Is that an even number?
Maybe the 000 is use as a Bonus-bet/Bonus-spin or some kind of Side-bet?
I read it as if it's the name of the game, and has nothing to do with the Sands casino company.Quote: PokeraddictIs this at Venetian, Palazzo or Sands Bethlehem? Or is it a joke I'm not getting?
But now that you mention it, you may be right. I don't know...
I would do more than simply not play, I would make an incredibly rude comment to the supervisor and leave. If they're doing this, they should be ashamed. It makes me angry to just think about it.
Quote: ahiromu... an 8% game with a spin every 60 seconds is just plain theft.
I guess you never noticed people playing the slot machines. Half of their floor is over 12% and you can spin every five seconds or so.
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt until the rules are confirmed.
Quote: WizardI look forward to going there to see this with my own eyes. However, if anybody can beat me to it, go ahead. For what its worth, I've seen pictures of triple-zero roulette in books on the history of gambling. So, such games did exist, probably in the riverboat gambling days. It wouldn't surprise me if this is on a low limit table, to make it more affordable to low-budget players, the same argument they would use to justify 6-5 blackjack. Maybe there is some kind of bonus too.
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt until the rules are confirmed.
It wouldn't surprise me greatly if it is simply an additional number with no other benefits. Because the inside numbers pay like a side wager, fitting in with the 6 to 5 BJ analogy, this would simply be increasing the HA on a side wager like bet from 5% to the 7%+ realm.
I don't see any average sporadic players even really noticing/caring.
Quote: mrsuit31I don't see any average sporadic players even really noticing/caring.
Sadly, I agree.
But here is an entirely different angle...I wonder if Sands can get this triple zero roulette to become a bit of a standard to traditional roulette (like 6:5 in BJ). Then I wonder if they secured IP on the new roulette wheel as a device which is much easier to qualify as "not an abstract idea" with the USPTO. Then if other properties wanted to offer the triple zero roulette because of the 7% HE and the general malaise/acceptance by Strip gamblers, they are going to have to license the game from Sands. That could be a brilliant play by Sands...imagine if today you were sitting on secure IP for 6:5 BJ and how many properties would gladly pay a monthly licensing fee for a mandatory 1.4% increase in HE on a game players already know and gets a lot of play.
Of course, perhaps triple zero is not new/novel and there would be no path to IP protection.
There's no path to IP protection anyway, at least not with patents. "Adding an extra spot to a gaming wheel" has been done before (e.g., European -> American roulette, various sizes of Money Wheel games, etc.)Quote: ParadigmOf course, perhaps triple zero is not new/novel and there would be no path to IP protection.
Quote: ParadigmOf course, perhaps triple zero is not new/novel and there would be no path to IP protection.
As you said, I don't think that would fly.
Edit: As ME said also. He beat me to the punch....
This is true, they are trialing it.
The triple zero spot is actually an 'S' for sands.
It does have a nearly 8% house edge.
At this point there are no other bonuses or anything else, but the game is holding so high they might have to add something or the gaming commission could pull it off the floor.
Anyone else that can confirm and/or add detail or am I somehow creating a false memory?
Quote: ScarneThe research shows that from the day roulette was first introduced into American casinos and up until about 1890 the American wheels were of a special design unlike the European wheels. They had 31 numbers and symbols: the numbers 1 through 28, a single 0, a double 00, and a picture of an American eagle which was the equivalent to a triple 000.
It goes onto explain that a single number bet paid 26 to 1. That would be a house edge of 12.90%!
Quote: LukeDWyattor the gaming commission could pull it off the floor.
Could you or someone explain this, is there a history of Gaming shutting down games with too high of a hold? I'm having a hard time thinking of an appropriate search string.
And yes, 8% is less than slots, but relatively speaking, I would still classify it as theft. Popular higher edge games settle around 2-3% and are played at a similar or slower pace (I'm thinking, specifically, of 3CP and PGP).
Edit: 3CP is 3.4%? Add in the "required" Pair Plus and it's around half. Higher than I thought, I guess I won't consider playing.
Two people were playing it when there were ample open seats at double zero games.
Quote: ahiromuCould you or someone explain this, is there a history of Gaming shutting down games with too high of a hold? I'm having a hard time thinking of an appropriate search string.
I can't quote an instance but I know of field trial game owners who were very worried about their game holding over 25% and thus not passing the field trial. I personally never understood the logic of that rule. I guess it is meant in the interests of player protection, but a high hold may mean the players are simply playing a long time, which should not be a bad thing.
BTW, a simple remedy for a high hold -- Buy into the game for a lot of money and walk away from the table with most of the chips. That will dilute the hold percentage.
Quote: WizardI can't quote an instance but I know of field trial game owners who were very worried about their game holding over 25% and thus not passing the field trial. I personally never understood the logic of that rule. I guess it is meant in the interests of player protection, but a high hold may mean the players are simply playing a long time, which should not be a bad thing.
BTW, a simple remedy for a high hold -- Buy into the game for a lot of money and walk away from the table with most of the chips. That will dilute the hold percentage.
Thanks, that's an interesting line for Gaming to draw though. Or maybe it's just a line the casinos don't want to cross? I'll keep my eye out.
Quote: ahiromuThanks, that's an interesting line for Gaming to draw though. Or maybe it's just a line the casinos don't want to cross? I'll keep my eye out.
On this topic, I have never actually seen a regulation that a table game must have a hold percentage under 25%. I think Gaming may be confused between house advantage and hold percentage on this one.
Are you saying that a bet on "2nd 12" or "3rd 12" has 13 possible winning numbers and pays 2-1?Quote: PokeraddictThe 0 is in the 2nd 12 and 00 is in the 3rd 12.
Wouldn't the house edge on these bets be 0, or do I have to take the Wizard's Remedial Math for Degenerates course (again)?
http://www.onlineunitedstatescasinos.com/blog/venetian-rolls-triple-zero-roulette-4541/
Quote: WizardOn this topic, I have never actually seen a regulation that a table game must have a hold percentage under 25%. I think Gaming may be confused between house advantage and hold percentage on this one.
I don't even think there is a regulation on maximum house edge when it comes to table games or live keno. Wasn't there a keno bet you analyzed that had a house edge over 90%?
In my home state of Missouri, there is a regulation that requires all table game bets to return at least 70% back with optimal play. Electronic gaming devices in the state must return at least 80% as well as most of the riverboat states.
I'm annoyed I forgot to personally check this out. I was there on Monday.
But I did note they did add the "red light/green light" system for drinks at the bartops. They blantantly ripped the idea off from Caesars casinos who also mostly have them now.
That doesn't make any sense. A lot of proprietary card games hold over 25% -- 3CP is at 30% lately, and CStud has had moments around there in the past.Quote: WizardI can't quote an instance but I know of field trial game owners who were very worried about their game holding over 25% and thus not passing the field trial. I personally never understood the logic of that rule.
I've never really understood the fascination with hold percentage from a table operations standpoint. I know it's the only "percentage" they can calculate, but looking at win in dollars (normalized by, say minimum bet or average bet) seems more valuable. If I have two proprietary games on my floor and one wins $35k while the other wins $20k, I'd say the first one is doing better. If the second one held 28% and the first one only held 22%, what am I supposed to think about that? Any statistic that's easily manipulated by messing with the denominator (as table hold percentage is) seems of suspect use.
zeros on every spin. They think
they're the 'house numbers' and there
is some kind of mystery attached to
them. They will consider a 3 zero
wheel to be a boon, an even better
chance to 'screw' the casino. Watch
players when they hit a zero, they
act like they've really accomplished
something.
Quote: MathExtremistI've never really understood the fascination with hold percentage from a table operations standpoint.
Thank you! I've been saying that for years. I have also asked why the emphasis on hold percentage to numerous table game executives and have yet to get a answer other than "that's how we've always judged table games."
Quote: MathExtremistThat doesn't make any sense. A lot of proprietary card games hold over 25% -- 3CP is at 30% lately, and CStud has had moments around there in the past.
I agree. The policy seems to hold only for field trial games.
Quote: tringlomaneOn this topic, I have never actually seen a regulation that a table game must have a hold percentage under 25%. I think Gaming may be confused between house advantage and hold percentage on this one.
Yes, at Harrah's. Keno is a grandfathered game so the 25% house edge rule doesn't apply to it.
Quote: WizardThank you! I've been saying that for years. I have also asked why the emphasis on hold percentage to numerous table game executives and have yet to get a answer other than "that's how we've always judged table games."
I agree. The policy seems to hold only for field trial games.
I can understand its purpose for some reasons. It can help uncover a game protection issue (if of course the hold isn't simply screwed up by manipulation similar to what you described earlier). If Hold drops off significantly for a consistent period, it my evidence an issue.
That said, I agree way to much importance is placed on it over and above the simple win amount for the game.
The thing I have a big problem with is the "well it isn't holding high enough, so technically if we had this other game in place of yours, we would have generated a lot more profit"...
Quote: mrsuit31I can understand its purpose for some reasons. It can help uncover a game protection issue (if of course the hold isn't simply screwed up by manipulation similar to what you described earlier). If Hold drops off significantly for a consistent period, it my evidence an issue.
If there were an issue, then the win should be off too. In my opinion, maximizing win should be the objective. I'd rather win 10% of $1,000,000 than 100% of $1000.
Quote: WizardIf there were an issue, then the win should be off too. In my opinion, maximizing win should be the objective. I'd rather win 10% of $1,000,000 than 100% of $1000.
I agree with the win statement 100%
"The win SHOULD be off too", but may not be. If drop increase, causing win to remain constant, while hold drops off significantly, it could be a marker for a security issue. That said it could also just be the result of a lucky month for players. But it could direct attention to the potential problem. Also, realistically, if you already have proven games in a jurisdiction, the hold can help optimize the floor mix. For example, say Money$uit 31 ;) and three card poker are both established in state X. The resort has seen a history of virtually identical play accross both games... The hold percentage would dictate which game should have the higher concentration of tables, as it would truly optimize (or help) profits. Both scenarios are specific, but I think you can see what I'm trying to say. I do see some worth to the statistic, but again feel it is way to heavily emphasized with new games to gauge performance.
Quote: mrsuit31If drop increase, causing win to remain constant, while hold drops off significantly, it could be a marker for a security issue.
If there were a security issue, then I still say the win would drop. If there were a game where the win were the same as expected but the hold percentage were way out of whack, then I might wonder why. However, every time I've heard of a table games director talk about hold percentage it was because he was worried that it was in general too high or too low for a game. Usually too high. To that I've always replied, maybe a high hold percentage just means players like the game and playing it a long time. I've never had a counter argument to that point.
Quote: WizardHowever, every time I've heard of a table games director talk about hold percentage it was because he was worried that it was in general too high or too low for a game. Usually too high. To that I've always replied, maybe a high hold percentage just means players like the game and playing it a long time. I've never had a counter argument to that point.
Fair.
I'm not sure what you're saying. I think you're implying that the zeros are included in the dozens and/or columns bets. I would seriously doubt that.Quote: beachbumbabsSo how much does placing to 0 and 00 in the high and middle 12's pay affect the he?
I think Babs was referencing Pokeradict's post:Quote: DJTeddyBearI'm not sure what you're saying. I think you're implying that the zeros are included in the dozens and/or columns bets. I would seriously doubt that.
I read this as 0 and 00 being included in the dozens. I was hoping he would stop back here and verify/clarify this.Quote: PokeraddictI visited the game. It pays just as double zero roulette does with two exceptions. The 0 is in the 2nd 12 and 00 is in the 3rd 12. The "Sands" (000) is not on the first 12. I asked the dealer and he confirmed. There is also a green bet that pays 11-1, which would be the same as betting all zeros on the felt. I guess it is just in an easier spot to reach.
Two people were playing it when there were ample open seats at double zero games.
If that is actually the case, there would be no edge on those dozens bets. But I agree with you, DJTB, it doesn't make much sense to have 2 zero edge bets when all of the other bets on the layout carry an 8% edge.
Quote: JoemanI think Babs was referencing Pokeradict's post:
I read this as 0 and 00 being included in the dozens. I was hoping he would stop back here and verify/clarify this.Quote: PokeraddictI visited the game. It pays just as double zero roulette does with two exceptions. The 0 is in the 2nd 12 and 00 is in the 3rd 12. The "Sands" (000) is not on the first 12. I asked the dealer and he confirmed. There is also a green bet that pays 11-1, which would be the same as betting all zeros on the felt. I guess it is just in an easier spot to reach.
Two people were playing it when there were ample open seats at double zero games.
If that is actually the case, there would be no edge on those dozens bets. But I agree with you, DJTB, it doesn't make much sense to have 2 zero edge bets when all of the other bets on the layout carry an 8% edge.
Unless that is their selling point of offering a pair of zero edge bets in return for a high edge elsewhere. I was curious wat the outside even money bets offer in relation to zeros. It seems strange to make the dozens the differing bets
Also how r the columns bets affected
