x7x7x7
x7x7x7
Joined: Jul 20, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 4
July 20th, 2010 at 4:04:35 PM permalink
I have Played keno for years always thinking it was trully random and have enjoyed the game yes I've lost more than I won but never my mortgage payment lol so it was only for entertainment and I have enjoyed playing and ever so often hit a nice 7-spot or 8-spot or 8 of 9 etc for a nice payday but now after reading this this seems like it could make sense I hope its not true would take away alotta the fun of keno knowing its not trully random.... Does anyone work for a company like IGT or something and answer this with a def yes or no? Thanks



One of the most technical explanations of how a video keno game works was delivered to me from a reader who claims to have received the information from a former technician of a major slot manufacturer.

Now, I donít endorse this explanation or suggest that it is a true reflection of how keno machines work. But I thought it might prove interesting, if not worthwhile, to our readers. Here is the explanation, in the readerís own words:

These machines are designed and programmed to do one thing. Pay the house a certain pre-determined percentage of every dollar gambled, and I have been assured that if the machine has not registered enough intake of money to enable it to pay out a major jackpot, it will not hit no matter how many times or how often you re-set your numbers. These machines have a three phase program written into them.

Phase one Ö there isnít enough money to pay a jackpot. This is when the machine will somehow manage to miss your numbers most of the time, hitting small pays just often enough to keep the "itís due" type of player feeding it.

Phase two is the real kicker. When the machine has enough money to pay out a jackpot without hurting the house "hold" it actually switches over to a second program that is truly run via a random number generator. At this point the machine is actually running an honest RNG program, and your numbers may or may not hit depending on how lucky you are. This is when your true odds of hitting a jackpot based on the number of spots picked come into play. The more numbers picked, the longer the odds. (One note here: Almost all these machines except those connected to a progressive jackpot, pay the same maximum jackpot for an 8-, 9- or 10-spot. So why play a 10-spot when an 8-spot pays the same and your odds of hitting one are exponentially better?)

The third phase programmed into the game is the one you hope youíre lucky enough to have running when you put your money in and pick your numbers. Everyone from the Gaming Control Board to the manufacturer will deny this even under the pain of death, but just remember it is a computer and it can be programmed to do anything you want it to do. And it is the only way that a machine manufacturer can guarantee the house that they will make their percentage in profit. When these machines switch over to the third tier of the program, it reads that the machine is holding far in excess of what it is programmed to earn for the house, usually from 15 percent to 18 percent. Itís just way too close to the maximum 25 percent hold mandated by state gaming regulations. Now it doesnít matter what numbers you pick, they are going to hit!

Interesting stuff, wouldnít you say? Beyond that, I donít have a clue whether this is an accurate explanation of a video keno program. And, of course, the game manufacturers arenít talking.
7craps
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 1886
July 20th, 2010 at 6:10:27 PM permalink
e43138
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
nyuhoosier
nyuhoosier
Joined: Feb 16, 2010
  • Threads: 31
  • Posts: 248
July 20th, 2010 at 6:29:22 PM permalink
This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.

People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1234
  • Posts: 20427
July 20th, 2010 at 7:11:32 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.

People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.



Couldn't have said it better myself.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
7craps
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 1886
July 20th, 2010 at 7:43:46 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.


Book: License to Steal: Nevada's Gaming Control System in the Megaresort Age

An excellent and fun book to read.

preview google books HERE
Read page one and two in Chapter One for free. Pages 43 and 44 are good also.

There WAS cheating back then, and they had HE on slots back then,in the mid 80s and 90s, so then they must have cheated because they were greedy. Only reason I could figure.
But no one is greedy any more, from Wall Street to Casinos and Banks. Im sure they all learned their lessons and will be 100% honest til the end.

I say, if someone (a casino anywhere in the world)wants to cheat, they will, regardless of risk being caught. History has shown it HAS happened and I am sure it continues to happen.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
July 20th, 2010 at 9:05:46 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.

People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.



That's just it. Who's going to show anyone any facts about what's done with video gaming machines? We're in a recession right now and anything's possible if it weren't already. All we have to go by are Gaming Regs, and who's to say if they're complete or if they have multiple interpretations available.

People will lie, companies will cheat, governments will mislead; happens all the time. I believe machine fairness is an individual perception, bounded by hope that everything's on the up & up.
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
August 8th, 2010 at 11:48:05 PM permalink
At least one player who is known, and almost certainly, dozens who are not, have managed to exploit the non-randomness of video keno machines to win large sums. The key is that there is no such thing as a true random number generator, without going into the technical details.

As to whether the machines can be set to "cheat"--well, we all know this is trivial to do. It is also completely undetectable. Even if the Gaming Control Board were to descend on a casino, guns drawn, and spirit away all the video keno machines with the purpose of carrying them back to their underground lair and making them confess--well, the act of powering the machines down would destroy any loaded program (in software, not in firmware). And I doubt very much whether any clueless third party could ever decode the program anyway.

So the question is, they can cheat--but would they? Well, first, you have to define "cheat". The casinos have already decided, AND THE COURTS AGREE WITH THEM, that fiddling with the outcome of a "random" slot machine event is NOT cheating. If a reel slot was going to display (blank) 7 7, the program will rearrange the outcome to 7 7 (blank), making the customer's heart skip a beat, rather than the anticlimactic initial blank.

So as long as the eventual preset payback is realized, both practice and law (I'm talking Nevada law here, which is more like 1920's Chicago or 1990's Russia law) say that the casino can rearrange those payouts any way they want. Do keno machines cluster results in the way you mention? We'll never know--but the casinos have shown no compunction against mucking with supposedly randomly generated results. The silver lining is that if they ARE doing that, it doesn't actually change your overall chances one way or the other--it just increases your variance (which can actually be a Godsend on a -EV game, as you might hit something big and be able to get away from the damned machine before it crushes you).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1234
  • Posts: 20427
August 10th, 2010 at 12:46:12 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

...the casinos have shown no compunction against mucking with supposedly randomly generated results.



I stand by what I have said many times, that video poker and video keno in Nevada is fair, as if real cards/balls were used. If anyone can provide me evidence that such is not that case, I'll be happy to investigate, and use my bully pulpit to shame any game maker that is not offering an honest and fair game, as well as making a formal complaint to Gaming.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
scotty81
scotty81
Joined: Feb 4, 2010
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 185
August 10th, 2010 at 1:17:04 PM permalink
I have to agree with the Wizard. Having worked in the Legal industry for almost 30 years, I can tell you that without question that if this sort of systematic cheating was being perpetrated on the general public by IGT and the casinos that you would see a class action suit filed so fast it would make your brain hurt.

The financial incentives to expose/litigate this sort of cheating far outweigh any advantage either IGT or the casinos would gain from it.

That's not to say that there have not been instances in past where shoddy RNGs and clever programmers have found ways to beat the system. But, these were isolated cases, and I believe it is not systemically integrated into the machines.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 639
August 10th, 2010 at 1:25:33 PM permalink
People who have no clue how the industry works and have no idea about the levels of oversight and testing protocols are quick to create fantasies to explain their losses. No amount of explanation from experts is going to do; they are just going to believe those who tell them what they want to believe.

If it sounds just like religious quackery, it is.

I believed the "Wizard" was a wizard until I pulled back the curtain. Now I know he passes every statistical test for fairness created by man.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"

  • Jump to: