x7x7x7
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ChumpChange
July 20th, 2010 at 4:04:35 PM permalink
I have Played keno for years always thinking it was trully random and have enjoyed the game yes I've lost more than I won but never my mortgage payment lol so it was only for entertainment and I have enjoyed playing and ever so often hit a nice 7-spot or 8-spot or 8 of 9 etc for a nice payday but now after reading this this seems like it could make sense I hope its not true would take away alotta the fun of keno knowing its not trully random.... Does anyone work for a company like IGT or something and answer this with a def yes or no? Thanks



One of the most technical explanations of how a video keno game works was delivered to me from a reader who claims to have received the information from a former technician of a major slot manufacturer.

Now, I donít endorse this explanation or suggest that it is a true reflection of how keno machines work. But I thought it might prove interesting, if not worthwhile, to our readers. Here is the explanation, in the readerís own words:

These machines are designed and programmed to do one thing. Pay the house a certain pre-determined percentage of every dollar gambled, and I have been assured that if the machine has not registered enough intake of money to enable it to pay out a major jackpot, it will not hit no matter how many times or how often you re-set your numbers. These machines have a three phase program written into them.

Phase one Ö there isnít enough money to pay a jackpot. This is when the machine will somehow manage to miss your numbers most of the time, hitting small pays just often enough to keep the "itís due" type of player feeding it.

Phase two is the real kicker. When the machine has enough money to pay out a jackpot without hurting the house "hold" it actually switches over to a second program that is truly run via a random number generator. At this point the machine is actually running an honest RNG program, and your numbers may or may not hit depending on how lucky you are. This is when your true odds of hitting a jackpot based on the number of spots picked come into play. The more numbers picked, the longer the odds. (One note here: Almost all these machines except those connected to a progressive jackpot, pay the same maximum jackpot for an 8-, 9- or 10-spot. So why play a 10-spot when an 8-spot pays the same and your odds of hitting one are exponentially better?)

The third phase programmed into the game is the one you hope youíre lucky enough to have running when you put your money in and pick your numbers. Everyone from the Gaming Control Board to the manufacturer will deny this even under the pain of death, but just remember it is a computer and it can be programmed to do anything you want it to do. And it is the only way that a machine manufacturer can guarantee the house that they will make their percentage in profit. When these machines switch over to the third tier of the program, it reads that the machine is holding far in excess of what it is programmed to earn for the house, usually from 15 percent to 18 percent. Itís just way too close to the maximum 25 percent hold mandated by state gaming regulations. Now it doesnít matter what numbers you pick, they are going to hit!

Interesting stuff, wouldnít you say? Beyond that, I donít have a clue whether this is an accurate explanation of a video keno program. And, of course, the game manufacturers arenít talking.
7craps
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July 20th, 2010 at 6:10:27 PM permalink
e43138
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
nyuhoosier
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July 20th, 2010 at 6:29:22 PM permalink
This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.

People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
Wizard
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July 20th, 2010 at 7:11:32 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.

People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.



Couldn't have said it better myself.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
7craps
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July 20th, 2010 at 7:43:46 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.


Book: License to Steal: Nevada's Gaming Control System in the Megaresort Age

An excellent and fun book to read.

preview google books HERE
Read page one and two in Chapter One for free. Pages 43 and 44 are good also.

There WAS cheating back then, and they had HE on slots back then,in the mid 80s and 90s, so then they must have cheated because they were greedy. Only reason I could figure.
But no one is greedy any more, from Wall Street to Casinos and Banks. Im sure they all learned their lessons and will be 100% honest til the end.

I say, if someone (a casino anywhere in the world)wants to cheat, they will, regardless of risk being caught. History has shown it HAS happened and I am sure it continues to happen.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
JerryLogan
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July 20th, 2010 at 9:05:46 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.

People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.



That's just it. Who's going to show anyone any facts about what's done with video gaming machines? We're in a recession right now and anything's possible if it weren't already. All we have to go by are Gaming Regs, and who's to say if they're complete or if they have multiple interpretations available.

People will lie, companies will cheat, governments will mislead; happens all the time. I believe machine fairness is an individual perception, bounded by hope that everything's on the up & up.
mkl654321
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August 8th, 2010 at 11:48:05 PM permalink
At least one player who is known, and almost certainly, dozens who are not, have managed to exploit the non-randomness of video keno machines to win large sums. The key is that there is no such thing as a true random number generator, without going into the technical details.

As to whether the machines can be set to "cheat"--well, we all know this is trivial to do. It is also completely undetectable. Even if the Gaming Control Board were to descend on a casino, guns drawn, and spirit away all the video keno machines with the purpose of carrying them back to their underground lair and making them confess--well, the act of powering the machines down would destroy any loaded program (in software, not in firmware). And I doubt very much whether any clueless third party could ever decode the program anyway.

So the question is, they can cheat--but would they? Well, first, you have to define "cheat". The casinos have already decided, AND THE COURTS AGREE WITH THEM, that fiddling with the outcome of a "random" slot machine event is NOT cheating. If a reel slot was going to display (blank) 7 7, the program will rearrange the outcome to 7 7 (blank), making the customer's heart skip a beat, rather than the anticlimactic initial blank.

So as long as the eventual preset payback is realized, both practice and law (I'm talking Nevada law here, which is more like 1920's Chicago or 1990's Russia law) say that the casino can rearrange those payouts any way they want. Do keno machines cluster results in the way you mention? We'll never know--but the casinos have shown no compunction against mucking with supposedly randomly generated results. The silver lining is that if they ARE doing that, it doesn't actually change your overall chances one way or the other--it just increases your variance (which can actually be a Godsend on a -EV game, as you might hit something big and be able to get away from the damned machine before it crushes you).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
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August 10th, 2010 at 12:46:12 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

...the casinos have shown no compunction against mucking with supposedly randomly generated results.



I stand by what I have said many times, that video poker and video keno in Nevada is fair, as if real cards/balls were used. If anyone can provide me evidence that such is not that case, I'll be happy to investigate, and use my bully pulpit to shame any game maker that is not offering an honest and fair game, as well as making a formal complaint to Gaming.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
scotty81
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August 10th, 2010 at 1:17:04 PM permalink
I have to agree with the Wizard. Having worked in the Legal industry for almost 30 years, I can tell you that without question that if this sort of systematic cheating was being perpetrated on the general public by IGT and the casinos that you would see a class action suit filed so fast it would make your brain hurt.

The financial incentives to expose/litigate this sort of cheating far outweigh any advantage either IGT or the casinos would gain from it.

That's not to say that there have not been instances in past where shoddy RNGs and clever programmers have found ways to beat the system. But, these were isolated cases, and I believe it is not systemically integrated into the machines.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
DorothyGale
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August 10th, 2010 at 1:25:33 PM permalink
People who have no clue how the industry works and have no idea about the levels of oversight and testing protocols are quick to create fantasies to explain their losses. No amount of explanation from experts is going to do; they are just going to believe those who tell them what they want to believe.

If it sounds just like religious quackery, it is.

I believed the "Wizard" was a wizard until I pulled back the curtain. Now I know he passes every statistical test for fairness created by man.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Headlock
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August 10th, 2010 at 1:48:37 PM permalink
I think it's naive to believe that the casino industry is not cheating because they always have the edge. There is someone cheating in every industry or service sector. Just consider our federal and state legislators.
DorothyGale
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August 10th, 2010 at 2:04:19 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

I think it's naive to believe that the casino industry is not cheating because they always have the edge. There is someone cheating in every industry or service sector. Just consider our federal and state legislators.



Many of us are professionals in the gaming industry ... we are not "naive" ... nor are we "believers" ...

A good sign of faulty logic is the use of the "Straw Man" argument ... Industry, sector, federal, state, legislators ... sure ... why not ... there are stories about these people all over the media ... it must also be true for gaming ...

Now find one recent instance of a slot or keno machine that was designed to intentionally cheat people in a NV casino as reported in the media ... Oh ... they always get away with it so no one ever knows ...

It's just too much some time ... Wizard, just pull shut that curtain again, they want to believe ...

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Headlock
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August 10th, 2010 at 2:15:12 PM permalink
You honestly believe there is no cheating in the casino industry?
DorothyGale
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August 10th, 2010 at 2:34:46 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

You honestly believe there is no cheating in the casino industry?



Did I say that? It is the specific type of cheating alleged by the OP that is NOT taking place. Slots, Keno and Video Poker are NOT rigged to adjust the RTP based on some predetermined formula. They do not adjust in real time, period. If you think otherwise, the burden is on you to put up or shut up. I'd wager on you failing to do either.

Saying that politicians cheat and therefore casinos cheat is not logical. Politicians cheat and they are caught. If casinos cheat in the way you allege, where is the evidence? Show me who was caught? Show me one instance in the media recently where RTP manipulation was even alleged and investigated in a Nevada casino.

I'm done ... you are just silly ... you're not going to get me to respond again to these absurdities ...

Go sniff some more glue ...

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Headlock
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August 10th, 2010 at 2:46:33 PM permalink
It seems you said that my logic was faulty, assuming that because cheating (lying, stealing, fraud, etc.) is found in almost every human endeavor, that cheating must also occur in the gaming industry. And you implied that since I could not prove cheating in the gaming industry, it must not exist. Can you assure us then, as a gaming professional, that cheating does not occur in the gaming industry?

I was merely expressing my own opinion about casinos in general, not keno specifically.
nyuhoosier
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August 10th, 2010 at 2:58:51 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

Did I say that? It is the specific type of cheating alleged by the OP that is NOT taking place. Slots, Keno and Video Poker are NOT rigged to adjust the RTP based on some predetermined formula. They do not adjust in real time, period. If you think otherwise, the burden is on you to put up or shut up. I'd wager on you failing to do either.

Saying that politicians cheat and therefore casinos cheat is not logical. Politicians cheat and they are caught. If casinos cheat in the way you allege, where is the evidence? Show me who was caught? Show me one instance in the media recently where RTP manipulation was even alleged and investigated in a Nevada casino.

I'm done ... you are just silly ... you're not going to get me to respond again to these absurdities ...

Go sniff some more glue ...

--Dorothy



Well said. I like your style, Dorothy.
Headlock
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August 10th, 2010 at 3:00:25 PM permalink
I'm sorry DorothyGale, that you took such offense at my innocent opinion. No offense intended. And as I said in my previous post, my comment was directed at the gaming industry as a whole, not the RTP games specifically. But I feel compelled to say that the fact I cannot prove cheating in the RTP games, and noone else has recently, does not assure me that it does not exist. I will not believe that all cheating (crimes, lying, cheating, fraud, etc.) is eventually discovered.
mkl654321
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August 10th, 2010 at 6:45:12 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

Well said. I like your style, Dorothy.



Actually, her(?) "style", characteristically consisting of sneering comments, like "go sniff some more glue" (har de har har! thigh-slapper!!!), and carrying an overall tone of condescension toward a person who DARES to disagree with her, is exactly the sort of diarrhea that all too often makes internet message boards so uncivil and unpleasant.

To assert that casinos do not cheat is naive, and stupid to boot. To point to the SUPPOSITION that no casino has ever been caught cheating as "proof" of that is ludicrously faulty logic. The oversight of Nevada gaming is weak, corrupt, inefficient, and minimal to boot. The reason for the lack of prosecutions for cheating (against casinos), despite thousands of player complaints every year, is that casinos are considered to be the economic engine of Nevada. Therefore, the Nevada government, of which the NVGCB is a part, bends over backwards to ensure that those casinos remain happy and healthy. To shut down a single casino for even one day would cost the state tens of thousands of dollars in lost tax revenue (2% off the top). The government therefore has no incentive to prosecute or enforce casino cheating (and of course, dramatic sanctions, including physical violence, are levied against PLAYERS who cheat---or, who win).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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August 10th, 2010 at 6:56:20 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

I'm sorry DorothyGale, that you took such offense at my innocent opinion. No offense intended. And as I said in my previous post, my comment was directed at the gaming industry as a whole, not the RTP games specifically. But I feel compelled to say that the fact I cannot prove cheating in the RTP games, and noone else has recently, does not assure me that it does not exist. I will not believe that all cheating (crimes, lying, cheating, fraud, etc.) is eventually discovered.



Dorothy appears to be the sort of person to whom disagreement with = "offense", so I wouldn't take it personally. I think the crux of the disagreement is the "default setting"--should the burden of proof be placed on you, who says that the casinos cheat, or Dorothy, who says that they do not? Well, IMHO, if I am going to bet thousands of dollars over the course of a trip to Vegas, I want to be SURE, to whatever extent is possible, that I am NOT being cheated. In a larger sense, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the merchant who sells a good or service to assure the customer that said merchant is fair and honest. Nevada casinos do NOT, in any way, meet this burden. They use deceptive, dishonest, and outright fraudulent marketing and other tactics to mislead the customer. The oversight agency that is supposed to be "regulating" Nevada gaming is a paper tiger, and actually actively assists the casinos in their frauds.

By the way, casino fraud--outright, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt--has been uncovered in three recent instances that I am aware of, in the specific case of casinos altering the outcomes of gaming machines controlled by "RNGs". One was video poker, one was reel slots, and one was video blackjack. I can give you more details if you PM me, but I don't want to elaborate here and start a whole other discussion (plus, I can feel Dorothy's hot breath on my neck already :) ).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Headlock
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August 11th, 2010 at 8:03:32 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Dorothy appears to be the sort of person to whom disagreement with = "offense", so I wouldn't take it personally. I think the crux of the disagreement is the "default setting"--should the burden of proof be placed on you, who says that the casinos cheat, or Dorothy, who says that they do not? Well, IMHO, if I am going to bet thousands of dollars over the course of a trip to Vegas, I want to be SURE, to whatever extent is possible, that I am NOT being cheated. In a larger sense, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the merchant who sells a good or service to assure the customer that said merchant is fair and honest. Nevada casinos do NOT, in any way, meet this burden. They use deceptive, dishonest, and outright fraudulent marketing and other tactics to mislead the customer. The oversight agency that is supposed to be "regulating" Nevada gaming is a paper tiger, and actually actively assists the casinos in their frauds.

By the way, casino fraud--outright, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt--has been uncovered in three recent instances that I am aware of, in the specific case of casinos altering the outcomes of gaming machines controlled by "RNGs". One was video poker, one was reel slots, and one was video blackjack. I can give you more details if you PM me, but I don't want to elaborate here and start a whole other discussion (plus, I can feel Dorothy's hot breath on my neck already :) ).



I don't know how you have escaped her wrath! Perhaps you're not as easy a target as I.

I am unable to PM. Can you post links to the instances of fraud you referred to?
DorothyGale
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August 11th, 2010 at 8:40:24 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Dorothy appears to be the sort of person to whom disagreement with = "offense", so I wouldn't take it personally.


I don't take anything personally, ever. Life is too short for that. Each of us is in complete control of how we react to anything that comes our way. Others can't make us feel anything. I thought that was "new-age 101."

Now, that said, I consider myself a pretty strong debater and usually find a way to win an argument. Especially if it's math/casino/logic related and I know something about the issue. Just ask the Wizard!

As for Keno being random, well, it is, so there.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
scotty81
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August 11th, 2010 at 9:03:27 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

By the way, casino fraud--outright, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt--has been uncovered in three recent instances that I am aware of, in the specific case of casinos altering the outcomes of gaming machines controlled by "RNGs". One was video poker, one was reel slots, and one was video blackjack. I can give you more details if you PM me, but I don't want to elaborate here and start a whole other discussion (plus, I can feel Dorothy's hot breath on my neck already :) ).



I don't think Dorothy would get on anyone's case if they came forward with credible, citable evidence of cheating. There may be some quibbling as to whether or not it is isolated or widespread, but you can't argue with facts and results.

What bothers me in particular is that everthing this seems to come up, it's the same old story:

1) I have evidence, but I don't want to share it
2) I have evidence, but if I share it the casinos will hunt me down like a dog and killl me
3) The evidence is out there for anyone to find - why should I be your gofer?
4) My uncle Fred heard about cheating from his friend Guido who has been in the casino industry since Bugsy, therefore it must be true.

If you have credible evidence, be an Man bring it forward. I know I won't get on your case. I'll sue the bastards.

As far as Dorthory is concerned - that's just the way they do things in Kansas. Get over it.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
Wizard
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August 11th, 2010 at 9:16:02 AM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale


Now, that said, I consider myself a pretty strong debater and usually find a way to win an argument. Especially if it's math/casino/logic related and I know something about the issue. Just ask the Wizard!



I agree. However, Dorothy doesn't always win against me. Once I proved her wrong about something and made her play the Benny Hill theme on the banjo as a penance. She did, on my answering machine, and quite well!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DorothyGale
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August 11th, 2010 at 9:32:07 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Once I proved her wrong about something and made her play the Benny Hill theme on the banjo as a penance. She did, on my answering machine...


Yes, it's true.

Q. How do you tune a banjo?
A. With a pen knife.

Q. How do you clean a banjo?
A. With lighter fluid and a match.

Q. What's a difference between a banjo player and a pizza?
A. The pizza can feed a family of 4.

Q. What's perfect pitch.
A. Throw a banjo out the window and it lands on another banjo.

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Doc
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August 11th, 2010 at 9:39:47 AM permalink
Q. How can you tell that the stage is level?
A. The banjo player is drooling evenly out of both sides of his/her mouth.



And that has so very much to do with whether keno is random.
bluefire
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August 11th, 2010 at 10:12:53 AM permalink
It's amazing to me so many people on the internet don't understand that if you make an assertion, it's on you to prove it correct. Saying "I believe x, go prove me wrong" isn't valid.
mkl654321
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August 11th, 2010 at 10:55:58 AM permalink
I said once that I wasn't going to open up another discussion. You can interpret that as solid-gold evidence that I'm making the whole thing up, if you like--that's your right. For what it's worth--and you don't have to believe THIS, either--I've been an advantage player for over fifteen years, and that was my sole means of support for eight of those years, so I have had to be brutally realistic about my adversaries (i.e., the casinos) and how they do what they do.

Anyone wishing to find out more about the various slot/VP/VK casino cheating scandals can find the information easily enough, by searching the Web in general, or specifically, the archives of the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the Las Vegas Sun, and other credible sources.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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August 11th, 2010 at 11:07:14 AM permalink
Quote: bluefire

It's amazing to me so many people on the internet don't understand that if you make an assertion, it's on you to prove it correct. Saying "I believe x, go prove me wrong" isn't valid.



The above does not apply when the assertion is obviously correct. In such a case, the burden shifts to any person who would claim that the assertion is untrue.

In this specific instance, "casinos cheat" is such a statement--a commonplace. Anyone wishing to prove this statement wrong would have to prove the statement "the casinos never cheat" correct. Here, the burden of proof is on the latter person/statement, for the logical reason that it is highly implausible that the casinos NEVER cheat, and for the factual reason that the casinos have indeed been caught cheating hundreds, if not thousands of times.

So rather than going round and round, as if the debate was between "always" and "never", I would assert that the real question is "how often, and under what circumstances?" This, of course, can be debated endlessly, but all we have in our PERSONAL experience is empirical data. I walked into Caesar's in Lake Tahoe one fine day many years ago, walked up to a blackjack table, bought $100 in $5 chips, and proceeded to lose twenty hands in a row (I was heads-up with the dealer). Disbelieving, I pulled out another $5 and lost that too. Finally (obviously I should have quit much earlier) I walked away, shaking my head, and remarked to the dealer, "Wow, what terrible luck!" She just smiled.

In the above situation, when should I have become suspicious? After ten consecutive losses? Twenty? Five hundred?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
teddys
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ChumpChange
August 11th, 2010 at 11:31:52 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321



So rather than going round and round, as if the debate was between "always" and "never", I would assert that the real question is "how often, and under what circumstances?" This, of course, can be debated endlessly, but all we have in our PERSONAL experience is empirical data. I walked into Caesar's in Lake Tahoe one fine day many years ago, walked up to a blackjack table, bought $100 in $5 chips, and proceeded to lose twenty hands in a row (I was heads-up with the dealer). Disbelieving, I pulled out another $5 and lost that too. Finally (obviously I should have quit much earlier) I walked away, shaking my head, and remarked to the dealer, "Wow, what terrible luck!" She just smiled.

Would you have thought the same thing if you won twenty hands in a row? Would have you assumed you were cheating? Would the casino have been justified in accusing you of cheating?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
nyuhoosier
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August 11th, 2010 at 11:34:47 AM permalink
mkl: Put up or please, please shut up. You repeatedly say it's naive to think casinos don't cheat, but provide zero evidence and apparently are so paranoid and delusional that you fear the casinos will use the Internet to hunt you down.

Swallowing the rambling assertions of an anonymous online poster -- one who is so misinformed he thinks Nevada's gaming tax is 2 percent -- is the mark not only of naivete, but of idiocy.

Please remember this thread was started by one of your fellow-travelers who feared the casino was cheating him at keno, a game that has a house edge close to 30 percent in live form and I'm guessing about 15 percent in video form. You and he might find comfort in wild conspiracy theories when you try to justify big losses.

I prefer to trust the analysis of reliable experts like the Wizard, rather than this load of bunk.
mkl654321
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August 11th, 2010 at 11:51:30 AM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

mkl: Put up or please, please shut up. You repeatedly say it's naive to think casinos don't cheat, but provide zero evidence and apparently are so paranoid and delusional that you fear the casinos will use the Internet to hunt you down.

Swallowing the rambling assertions of an anonymous online poster -- one who is so misinformed he thinks Nevada's gaming tax is 2 percent -- is the mark not only of naivete, but of idiocy.

Please remember this thread was started by one of your fellow-travelers who feared the casino was cheating him at keno, a game that has a house edge close to 30 percent in live form and I'm guessing about 15 percent in video form. You and he might find comfort in wild conspiracy theories when you try to justify big losses.

I prefer to trust the analysis of reliable experts like the Wizard, rather than this load of bunk.



It's your right to misinterpret my motives. It's your right to call me names. It's your right to cast aspersions on my experiences. It's your right to call me "paranoid and delusional" because I have expressed an opinion that you don't share.

It's your right, to sum up, to be discourteous, rude, insulting, crass, and to express any negative emotions that may have been bubbling below the surface, trying to get out. In a way, I am happy that this forum, and, in some small way, my post(s), have provided you with a healthy outlet for impulses that if expressed in the real world, could lead to violence. I am happy to be an "idiot" in your eyes if that improves your mental health. I am an altruist in this regard.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
bluefire
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August 11th, 2010 at 11:56:16 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

The above does not apply when the assertion is obviously correct. In such a case, the burden shifts to any person who would claim that the assertion is untrue.



Completely disagree. "Obviously true" doesn't exist. It's a judgement/opinion/perception; not a fact.

If I say the moon exists, it's on me to prove that it does. If I say that casinos cheat, it's on me to prove they do. If I say video keno is rigged, it's on me to prove it is. If I say gravity exists, it's on me to prove that it does.

The only reason why we don't have to prove that the world is round and not flat, is because it was proven true at one point, and is now taught & widely accepted in our society as true. However, back when the concept was first around, it was "obvious" the world was flat, not round.
mkl654321
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August 11th, 2010 at 7:28:43 PM permalink
Quote: bluefire

Completely disagree. "Obviously true" doesn't exist. It's a judgement/opinion/perception; not a fact.

If I say the moon exists, it's on me to prove that it does. If I say that casinos cheat, it's on me to prove they do. If I say video keno is rigged, it's on me to prove it is. If I say gravity exists, it's on me to prove that it does.

The only reason why we don't have to prove that the world is round and not flat, is because it was proven true at one point, and is now taught & widely accepted in our society as true. However, back when the concept was first around, it was "obvious" the world was flat, not round.



"Obviously true" actually DOES exist as a concept, in many forms.

Your analogies are deeply flawed. It is NOT incumbent on you to prove your assertion that the moon exists, because its existence has already been independently verified. The same rubric applies to casino cheating. (For what it's worth, I have personally been cheated or seen someone be cheated by casinos DOZENS of times, but I only state this parenthetically because I cannot meet the rigorous burden of proof that you seem to require. In any case, the documented cases of casino cheating are more than enough.)

As as far as your tired "flat earth" analogy goes, very few people have EVER thought that the world was flat, even in Columbus' day. That's because any moron can climb a hill and watch a ship sail over the horizon and disappear, and make the obvious inference. But I digress.

The reason that the assertion "casinos cheat" is, in fact, obviously true, is that the counter-assertion, "casinos do NOT cheat", is obviously false. Aside from the many documented instances of casinos doing just that, the idea of ANY entire class of large businesses (car manufacturers, banks, drug dealers, the Catholic church) being universally, 100% honest in their dealings with the public is not defensible.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
bluefire
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August 12th, 2010 at 12:41:54 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

"Obviously true" actually DOES exist as a concept, in many forms.

Your analogies are deeply flawed. It is NOT incumbent on you to prove your assertion that the moon exists, because its existence has already been independently verified.



You missed the second (and most important part) of what I was saying. But you gave me the perfect example to illustrate it.

You are correct that it has been proven to exist. However, that in and of itself does not mean you don't have to support your argument. The reason why you don't have to support that assertion is because society has generally accepted it as true already, and anyone involved with our society believes it to be true. When you claim "obvious truths", this is what you are referring to.

However, the boards reaction shows there isn't a consensus on this. Thus, its on you to backup your statements.



Quote:

The reason that the assertion "casinos cheat" is, in fact, obviously true, is that the counter-assertion, "casinos do NOT cheat", is obviously false. Aside from the many documented " instances of casinos doing just that, the idea of ANY entire class of large businesses (car manufacturers, banks, drug dealers, the Catholic church) being universally, 100% honest their dealings with the public is not defensible.



While everyone loves a good universal statement, that's not what this is really about. You're implying there is widespread cheating done by casinos, and you have no proof to back that up.
mkl654321
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August 12th, 2010 at 1:40:03 AM permalink
Quote: bluefire


While everyone loves a good universal statement, that's not what this is really about. You're implying there is widespread cheating done by casinos, and you have no proof to back that up.



Actually, what I SAID (rather explicitly) was that it was indisputable that the casinos do cheat, AND that the real question was how much, how often, and under what circumstances. I do, in fact, consider it "widespread", but that, as I'm sure you're aware, is a subjective term. My personal experience is what "backs that up", and I'm sorry, I'm not going to replay for you a video of the 20+ years I've spent in casinos. I have seen so much crap done right under my nose, sometimes surreptitously, sometimes blithely and matter-of-factly, as if I was being DARED to do something about it. And if I detected dozens of instances of cheating, there would have been ten times as many that I DIDN'T catch.

All of the above is irrelevant to you if your mind is set in stone. You obviously have a reason to assert, or to convince yourself to believe, that the casinos are lily-white honest. I don't know if you work for the casinos, have worked for them, or gamble heavily and don't want to feel that you're a sucker. All of the preceding possibilities would involve confirmation bias contributing to your point of view. I am just the opposite---I do NOT want the conclusion my observations point to to be true. As a long-term advantage gambler, I'd like to think that the games I am trying to beat are honest--if they're not, that renders all of my calculations and strategems moot. I have been forced to consider the truth, though, and the consideration that I don't like it is neither here nor there.

At any rate, I'm never going to convince you that my experiences are genuine, and you have even less chance of convincing me that they aren't, so we should probably drop this debate.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
scotty81
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August 12th, 2010 at 6:59:26 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Actually, what I SAID (rather explicitly) was that it was indisputable that the casinos do cheat, AND that the real question was how much, how often, and under what circumstances. I do, in fact, consider it "widespread", but that, as I'm sure you're aware, is a subjective term. My personal experience is what "backs that up", and I'm sorry, I'm not going to replay for you a video of the 20+ years I've spent in casinos. I have seen so much crap done right under my nose, sometimes surreptitously, sometimes blithely and matter-of-factly, as if I was being DARED to do something about it. And if I detected dozens of instances of cheating, there would have been ten times as many that I DIDN'T catch.



Just my 2 cents:

My experience actually mirrors mkl's experience. I've been an active player for over 20 years, and I've seen instances of outright casino cheating at its worst, and many more instances of what I would call unethical behavior, but not outright cheating. For anyone to deny that this doesn't take place would be, IMHO, naive.

What makes this possible, again IMO, is the dynamic of the one-on-one nature of the battle between casino and player. You have a situation where the casino wants the player's money, and the player is out to get the casino's money. All is fair in love and war as they say. Individual dealers can control the outcome of a game. The casinos can "rig" individual games, such as removing a few 10's from a shoe. In a sense, this comes under the category of just good clean fun. Let the player beware. But, on the other hand, the casino shouldn't whine when the tables are turned and an AP takes advantage of them.

What allows this dynamic to exist is that the recourse options against either the player or casino are either non-existant or very weak. So, a player refuses to pay a million dollar marker. What's a casino to do? Sue them as in the case of Terrance Wantanabe? Or, if a player catches a small Reno joint blatenly dealing seconds, what's the player to do? Report the casino to the police?

The gaming commissions are supposed to regulate this, to some extent, but individual cases of cheating between casino and player are so difficult to "prove", and so cumbersome to pursue that to a large extent the gaming commissions are just there for show. Except in the most aggregious of cases.

However, this does not imply (IMO) that systematic rigging of games is occuring in the form of a conspiracy between casino management and game manufacturers. The recourse penalties are just too massive and easy to pursue. Instead of just a bunch of gaming commission hacks, you now have the feds and shareholders involved with the consequences being serious fines, for both individuals and corporations, and prison time for those found directly culpable. Add to that the massive reward incentives brought to you by our wonderful Tort system, and the deep pockets represented by both the casino and gaming corporations (MGM/IGT/Harrah's), and you now have a REAL set of checks and balances.

If anyone here has credible evidence of systematic rigging of the actual video gaming devices, please speak up. Forget about making millions in the casino. You can make your millions in the courts.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
bluefire
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August 12th, 2010 at 8:00:58 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Actually, what I SAID (rather explicitly) was that it was indisputable that the casinos do cheat, AND that the real question was how much, how often, and under what circumstances. I do, in fact, consider it "widespread", but that, as I'm sure you're aware, is a subjective term. My personal experience is what "backs that up", and I'm sorry, I'm not going to replay for you a video of the 20+ years I've spent in casinos. I have seen so much crap done right under my nose, sometimes surreptitously, sometimes blithely and matter-of-factly, as if I was being DARED to do something about it. And if I detected dozens of instances of cheating, there would have been ten times as many that I DIDN'T catch.

All of the above is irrelevant to you if your mind is set in stone. You obviously have a reason to assert, or to convince yourself to believe, that the casinos are lily-white honest. I don't know if you work for the casinos, have worked for them, or gamble heavily and don't want to feel that you're a sucker. All of the preceding possibilities would involve confirmation bias contributing to your point of view. I am just the opposite---I do NOT want the conclusion my observations point to to be true. As a long-term advantage gambler, I'd like to think that the games I am trying to beat are honest--if they're not, that renders all of my calculations and strategems moot. I have been forced to consider the truth, though, and the consideration that I don't like it is neither here nor there.



I'm none of those. I've only taken 3-4 casino trips ever, and I know it's a losing proposition. I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I'm taking another one to Vegas next week, and I suspect I'll lose a bunch of money. I'm fine with that though, because it's the price of entertainment/vacation.

What I do know is that I haven't seen any credible evidence of widespread casino cheating, and I don't see a big motivation for a systemic institutionalized cheating either. I do see plenty of motivation to avoid it, like the risk of a huge PR scandal by a disgruntled ex-dealer exposing it.

Quote:

At any rate, I'm never going to convince you that my experiences are genuine, and you have even less chance of convincing me that they aren't, so we should probably drop this debate.



I wasn't trying to convince you of that.
weaselman
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August 12th, 2010 at 8:44:35 AM permalink
Quote: scotty81


The recourse penalties are just too massive and easy to pursue. Instead of just a bunch of gaming commission hacks, you now have the feds and shareholders involved with the consequences being serious fines, for both individuals and corporations, and prison time for those found directly culpable. Add to that the massive reward incentives brought to you by our wonderful Tort system, and the deep pockets represented by both the casino and gaming corporations (MGM/IGT/Harrah's), and you now have a REAL set of checks and balances.



Did not stop Enron, WorldCom, Maydoff, and countless others, most of whom we, probably, do not know about, because they never got caught.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
DorothyGale
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August 12th, 2010 at 10:02:10 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

Did not stop Enron, WorldCom, Maydoff, and countless others, most of whom we, probably, do not know about, because they never got caught.


Silently chanting to myself ...

Owha tagu siam ...

--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
scotty81
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August 12th, 2010 at 11:06:05 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

Did not stop Enron, WorldCom, Maydoff, and countless others, most of whom we, probably, do not know about, because they never got caught.



I repeat: If anyone has credible evidence of systematic machine tampering, please come forward. I'll personally assit you in getting this evidence in front of the kind of people who make it their mission in life to bring down deep pocket corporations.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
RobInVegas
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ChumpChange
March 8th, 2015 at 4:35:44 PM permalink
As an avid video keno player and game developer I was convince that video keno and video poker games used the RND to produce outcomes... woops! Have a look at an IGT patent US 7399227 B2

Unless I've misinterpreted the language it's looking like it's "rigged" for payouts. If it isn't your time to win they will change the outcome with a hash map until the "win seed" is attained.

I suppose I shouldn't be to shocked but damn at least let us know up front.
dummy
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March 8th, 2015 at 4:46:24 PM permalink
How are things going with your game.
. ?

ANY PLACEMENTS IN VEGS.
FleaStiff
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March 8th, 2015 at 5:18:34 PM permalink
Win seed. Lose seed. Are we back to Post Number One in this thread?
Mission146
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March 8th, 2015 at 6:04:10 PM permalink
Quote: RobInVegas

As an avid video keno player and game developer I was convince that video keno and video poker games used the RND to produce outcomes... woops! Have a look at an IGT patent US 7399227 B2

Unless I've misinterpreted the language it's looking like it's "rigged" for payouts. If it isn't your time to win they will change the outcome with a hash map until the "win seed" is attained.

I suppose I shouldn't be to shocked but damn at least let us know up front.



The patent says it gets the outcome from a, "Central Controller," in other words, this is a patent for a Class II Keno machine. In the sense of the word you're using, they are, 'rigged,' at least to the extent that they don't have to return at the percentage that the odds/pays would otherwise yield.

If you, Rob, are indeed, "In Vegas," as your handle implies, this isn't something about which you have to worry.

EDIT: Read, "Background of the Invention," section of the patent for greater detail.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
RobInVegas
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:16:25 PM permalink
I'm guessing the conversation might get a bit more interesting.

IGT patent US 7399227 B2 pretty much explains it all.

And I quote - "...The gaming terminal receives a predetermined game outcome seed from a central controller. The gaming terminal utilizes the selected game outcome seed to generate a plurality of game symbols. The gaming terminal determines if each of the generated game symbols needs to be modified. If so, the gaming terminal modifies these generated game symbols based on the bidirectionally mapping, presents the modified game symbols to the player and provides the player a game outcome that is determined based on the selected game outcome seed..."

Note that the "central controller" can be one or many processors. They seem to attempt to make it sound as though it's a client server relationship where one server is handing off pools of seeds on connected games, that may also be true, however deep in the document there is language that defines the "controller" and as I understand it, it can be a single or multi-processor within a single machine and they can provide a "pool" of win/loss seeds based on the amount of numbers you select, the game you decide to play, the denomination, and even whether a bonus is initiated (i.e., Caveman and Cleopatra)

There is further wording that makes it sound as though they are doing the player a favor by changing the outcome of the numbers supplied by the RNG and later in the patent they actually describe how wins will be taken away if the game is down on the percentage.

Ever notice those oddities where your favorite keno pattern seems to show up all over the board except where you are. Stripe a ten spot from 1 to 10 and nine out of ten hit directly below you then a few pulls later seven out of ten hits a few rows down - Yeah we've all been there.

I've played around with the hash math the document describes to see what happens when I create a seed pool and found some interesting results that seem to explain some of those statistical anomalies. I have a Keno simulator that I created using a standard RNG provided by the development language (Microsoft .net) and I just don't see the same odd results as I do when my money actually goes into the machine at my local pub.

The patent explains plainly that they are creating pool(s) of predetermined win/loss tickets and only using the RNG to randomly select one ticket of a predetermined set of numbers. If the machine is up on it's percent then your odds of winning just got better.

-Right machine at the right time.
RobInVegas
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:29:30 PM permalink
Ok I read it again and I don't see a reference to the Class II Keno machine. Is it implied in some way? How does one know if this method isn't being allowed in Nevada?

Although I've been writing code for a good long time I must confess I'm new to the details of gaming side of all this.

Any help is always appreciated.
reno
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:31:42 PM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

No need to risk everything by cheating.



And yet the Peppermill Reno risked everything by opening up slot machines in competitor casinos. They didn't need to do it, but they did it anyway and it cost them $1 million in fines.

To clarify: I still believe that the games in Nevada are genuinely random. But I could be wrong!

And sometimes the lack of randomness isn't deliberate; mistakes happen. From the August 2011 issue of Harper's magazine: "In 1998, the Arizona lottery began using a computerized system for the Pick 3 game. A Chandler woman named Ruth Wennerlund always picked the same three digits, 9-0-7 (her son was born on September 7). After a month under the new system, she noticed something peculiar: the number 9 had never been drawn. She called the Arizona Lottery to complain. They told her that she was merely unlucky. A few days later the Lottery announced that a glitch in their random-number generator had prevented any 9s from being chosen. The thousands of people who had played the tickets with the number 9 were offered refunds-- but only if they had kept their losing ticket stubs."
Mission146
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March 8th, 2015 at 7:51:21 PM permalink
Quote: RobInVegas

Ok I read it again and I don't see a reference to the Class II Keno machine. Is it implied in some way? How does one know if this method isn't being allowed in Nevada?

Although I've been writing code for a good long time I must confess I'm new to the details of gaming side of all this.

Any help is always appreciated.



Nevada law requires it to be random, and Nevada machines use RNG's, they have nothing to do with a central processor. The results of each individual machine are independent of all other machines. Central Processors feed results to a variety of machines and it is the machine's job to display an outcome consistent with what the central pool result is.

You really have to read the whole thing to get a really solid understanding, not just that section. It describes, in detail, how the whole thing works.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
tringlomane
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March 8th, 2015 at 8:06:57 PM permalink
Quote: reno

And yet the Peppermill Reno risked everything by opening up slot machines in competitor casinos. They didn't need to do it, but they did it anyway and it cost them $1 million in fines.

To clarify: I still believe that the games in Nevada are genuinely random. But I could be wrong!

And sometimes the lack of randomness isn't deliberate; mistakes happen. From the August 2011 issue of Harper's magazine: "In 1998, the Arizona lottery began using a computerized system for the Pick 3 game. A Chandler woman named Ruth Wennerlund always picked the same three digits, 9-0-7 (her son was born on September 7). After a month under the new system, she noticed something peculiar: the number 9 had never been drawn. She called the Arizona Lottery to complain. They told her that she was merely unlucky. A few days later the Lottery announced that a glitch in their random-number generator had prevented any 9s from being chosen. The thousands of people who had played the tickets with the number 9 were offered refunds-- but only if they had kept their losing ticket stubs."



What's nuts is...even after 32 draws, there was still a 1 in 24,701 chance that 9 would never have been drawn in a fair game, still decently within the realm of possibility.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/chance_news/recent_news/chance_news_7.07.html

Quote: RobInVegas

Ok I read it again and I don't see a reference to the Class II Keno machine. Is it implied in some way? How does one know if this method isn't being allowed in Nevada?

Although I've been writing code for a good long time I must confess I'm new to the details of gaming side of all this.

Any help is always appreciated.



Nevada has a "live game correlation" law. So the patent issued would not be a legal game in Nevada. But there are some US jurisdictions where "Class II" or "virtual pulltabs" are the only legal options for gambling games. Hence that patent for a keno game that functions this way.

Here is the Nevada "live game correlation" law:

14.040 2 (b)
(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical
probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the
mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other
gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game
outcome must be constant.

It's in the bottom third of page 171 in this pdf:
http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2957

So a machine in Nevada functioning as described by the patent you linked would be against Nevada law, and it's highly unlikely that any reputable manufacturer such as IGT would send a machine that could function illegally to a casino. If they did, I would be 99.54% sure (to use a pun from the Wizard) it would be an accident.

And also from the patent:

Quote: IGT patent

Regulatory bodies in certain jurisdictions do not permit the use of probability-based gaming terminals, in part for these reasons. These regulatory bodies permit the use of wagering gaming terminals which are guaranteed to provide certain or definite awards, so that, for example, a certain number of wins is guaranteed and the overall amount paid back to players is guaranteed.



It's unfortunate they didn't clearly label the "certain jurisdictions" here. The two largest I believe are New York state-run racinos and Washington state casinos. Nevada is definitely NOT one of these places. IGT does serve all over the country though, including New York and Washington.
RobInVegas
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March 9th, 2015 at 7:34:28 AM permalink
tringlomane,

Thanks for providing the regulation, I've been digging for this for days (Apparently my google skills are slipping.)

I had to LAWL at myself when I read it

14.040 Minimum standards for gaming devices...

2. Must use a random selection process to determine the game outcome of each play of a game. The random selection process must meet 95 percent confidence limits using a standard chi-squared test for goodness of fit.
(a) Each possible permutation or combination of game elements which produce winning or losing game outcomes must be available for random selection at the initiation of each play.
(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of game elements or detectable dependency upon any previous game outcome, the amount wagered, or upon the style or method of play.


So we can all agree that video Keno in Nevada is random?
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