Chemin de Fer -- does it really exist?
Poll
| No votes (0%) | |||
 | 2 votes (28.57%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 1 vote (14.28%) | ||
| | 1 vote (14.28%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 1 vote (14.28%) | ||
| | 2 votes (28.57%) |
7 members have voted
February 28th, 2015 at 8:09:08 PM
permalink
I'm starting to think that Chemin de Fer can only be found in books on game theory and James Bond movies. For the forum members who don't know what I'm talking about, Chemin de Fer is the same thing as baccarat, except the player making the largest bet on the Player has free will on whether to take a third card with a total of five. Likewise, the player with the largest bet on the Banker, has free will on whether to draw a third card, which mathematically will make a difference on a total of six only.
As usual, I'm using capital letters on the names of the bets Player and Banker, to differentiate those actually playing the game.
My challenge to the forum is to name any casino on the face of the earth that offers Chemin de Fer. I admit my knowledge of the gambling scene in Europe could be better, but in my four trips to Europe I've never knowingly seen anything but baccarat/punto banco (depending on the language).
The question for the forum is what countries have you seen Chemin de Fer played in?
As usual, I'm using capital letters on the names of the bets Player and Banker, to differentiate those actually playing the game.
My challenge to the forum is to name any casino on the face of the earth that offers Chemin de Fer. I admit my knowledge of the gambling scene in Europe could be better, but in my four trips to Europe I've never knowingly seen anything but baccarat/punto banco (depending on the language).
The question for the forum is what countries have you seen Chemin de Fer played in?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 28th, 2015 at 8:38:03 PM
permalink
This probably isn't any help, but...
I would be shocked to learn that a game so similar to an actual game only exists in fiction.
On the other hand, I would totally accept that it only exists in history.
Perhaps that's the answer. No casino offers it, any more.
And considering the current state of casino rules and regulations, it's hard to believe allowing a single bettor to make decisions that affect other bettors, could fly past regulators today.
I would be shocked to learn that a game so similar to an actual game only exists in fiction.
On the other hand, I would totally accept that it only exists in history.
Perhaps that's the answer. No casino offers it, any more.
And considering the current state of casino rules and regulations, it's hard to believe allowing a single bettor to make decisions that affect other bettors, could fly past regulators today.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 28th, 2015 at 8:45:07 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearAnd considering the current state of casino rules and regulations, it's hard to believe allowing a single bettor to make decisions that affect other bettors, could fly past regulators today.
This happens today in blackjack where back betting is allowed. You don't see it much in the US, but you see it a lot in Macau.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 28th, 2015 at 8:57:57 PM
permalink
There's one other very significant difference between Chemin de Fer and Baccarat; it's player-banked, and the player who is the current bank sets the amount, similar to how house-dealt blackjack works, or how the shooter in street craps places a bet that the others fade. It also appears in the movie A Hard Day's Night.
Also note that anybody can bet the entire amount of the bank, rendering all other bets void; if you ever hear somebody call out "Banco," this is what it means.
In terms of Chemin de Fer, I have heard the term "baccarat" used in two different ways. First, the way it was used in the original Casino Royale; it means a score of zero (the way "blackjack" means a 2-card 21). Second, and I'm not sure entirely how this worked, but it referred to a variation on CdF where there were two player hands in addition to the bank's hand.
The website of the Casino de Monte-Carlo says it runs Chemin de Fer, but only in its private areas.
Also note that anybody can bet the entire amount of the bank, rendering all other bets void; if you ever hear somebody call out "Banco," this is what it means.
In terms of Chemin de Fer, I have heard the term "baccarat" used in two different ways. First, the way it was used in the original Casino Royale; it means a score of zero (the way "blackjack" means a 2-card 21). Second, and I'm not sure entirely how this worked, but it referred to a variation on CdF where there were two player hands in addition to the bank's hand.
The website of the Casino de Monte-Carlo says it runs Chemin de Fer, but only in its private areas.
February 28th, 2015 at 9:13:36 PM
permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuyThe website of the Casino de Monte-Carlo says it runs Chemin de Fer, but only in its private areas.
Not that I'm disputing that, but how is the casino compensated for the use of their building if the players are just playing against each other other? It is like California blackjack where the players not acting as the banker pay a commission to the house?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 28th, 2015 at 9:24:41 PM
permalink
I have talked to players a few years ago in Vegas that say Monte Carlo has it. Never been. Heck, hard enough for me to get to Vegas or AC or Florida.
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
February 28th, 2015 at 9:29:02 PM
permalink
It seems to be here as well but only offered in tournament fashion.
http://www.casinovenezia.it/en/chemin-de-fer.html
http://www.casinovenezia.it/en/chemin-de-fer.html
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 28th, 2015 at 10:08:42 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardNot that I'm disputing that, but how is the casino compensated for the use of their building if the players are just playing against each other other? It is like California blackjack where the players not acting as the banker pay a commission to the house?
I figured it would be more like how a Vegas casino makes money on its poker tables, but according to the website, the casino takes a 5% commission on all bank wins.
March 1st, 2015 at 12:40:11 AM
permalink
What you want to start World War 3 here in Asia.
20 players would bet Player and Banker about half-half.
There would be no end of arguments to take a card or not.
After the play it would make the fights in BJ in US look like child play.
There is no more commission Baccarat here. It is all B6 win half bet.
It would take ages for the dealer to dish out the win minus the 5%.
Casino get twice as many rounds per hour than with the commission bac.
And they can employ a novice dealer and not one who is good at maths.
20 players would bet Player and Banker about half-half.
There would be no end of arguments to take a card or not.
After the play it would make the fights in BJ in US look like child play.
There is no more commission Baccarat here. It is all B6 win half bet.
It would take ages for the dealer to dish out the win minus the 5%.
Casino get twice as many rounds per hour than with the commission bac.
And they can employ a novice dealer and not one who is good at maths.
March 1st, 2015 at 12:55:01 AM
permalink
Quote: WizardNot that I'm disputing that, but how is the casino compensated for the use of their building if the players are just playing against each other other? It is like California blackjack where the players not acting as the banker pay a commission to the house?
In Germany, it is offered in Stuttgart and Hohensyburg.
The casino Collects a commission on the bank sum. I.e. The money the banker brings into the game. The players can wager up to that amount only. (no commission)
March 1st, 2015 at 6:38:12 AM
permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuyI figured it would be more like how a Vegas casino makes money on its poker tables, but according to the website, the casino takes a 5% commission on all bank wins.
The terminology is going to get confusing, so, again, I'm using capital letters for the bets and lower case for those actually playing the game.
So, could it be said that the players who are not banking must have the Player hand? And the player banking has the Banker hand? If the Banker hand wins then the players on Player lose the full amount, the house takes a 5% rake, and the banker on Banker keeps the rest? If there is a Player total of five do they let the player with the largest bet make the decision on what to do?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 1st, 2015 at 7:11:21 AM
permalink
Quote: WizardThe terminology is going to get confusing, so, again, I'm using capital letters for the bets and lower case for those actually playing the game.
So, could it be said that the players who are not banking must have the Player hand? And the player banking has the Banker hand? If the Banker hand wins then the players on Player lose the full amount, the house takes a 5% rake, and the banker on Banker keeps the rest? If there is a Player total of five do they let the player with the largest bet make the decision on what to do?
Yes that is correct. I called a host of mine that did work in Europe at M.C. and he did confirm that. (Caps for the wagers and non-caps to describe the players) Where as the player (gambler) can elect to shout out "Bank" which will announce he/she is going to act as the Bank/Banker. He/She has to cover all Players wagers (those gamblers wagering on the Players side, they cannot wager Bank) and the banker will take all there wagers if the Bank wins the hand.
And yes, there is an option for a third card at times, but my contact could not remember the exact rules. And yes, the house/casino takes a commission on the total Banker win. This is the true high roller atmosphere of Baccarat.
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
March 1st, 2015 at 8:00:42 AM
permalink
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Yes that is correct...
Thank you for the confirmation!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 1st, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM
permalink
I do remember a South American player at Vegas in 2013 telling me he played in somewhere in South America???
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
March 4th, 2015 at 7:32:14 AM
permalink
Quote: Baccaratfrom79I do remember a South American player at Vegas in 2013 telling me he played in somewhere in South America???
That is surprising. Baccarat is not very popular in South America, even among the few Asians there. Roulette is the hot game, in Argentina and Uruguay at least.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 4th, 2015 at 7:39:06 AM
permalink
The guy was definitely South American. I think from Brazil. He was telling me he plays Chemin. I took it that, he was referring to S. America but maybe it was another locale??
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
March 4th, 2015 at 7:49:12 AM
permalink
Quote: Baccaratfrom79The guy was definitely South American. I think from Brazil. He was telling me he plays Chemin. I took it that, he was referring to S. America but maybe it was another locale??
Is there any chance is was a translation thing and he was really referring to baccarat?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 4th, 2015 at 7:54:32 AM
permalink
Quote: WizardIs there any chance is was a translation thing and he was really referring to baccarat?
Clearly we were talking about this because I was mentioning Monte Carlo and private games. He was telling me he plays it and went through the banker banking the wagers of the other players. Mentioned paying the house a vig on the winning Banker wagers off the total dollar, etc. I just took it that he was playing it somewhere in S. America.
Bac79=Hazardous Material and Chemical person correcting other's mistakes. Non AP'er, I can't count cards, low intelligence. Sprinkles magical dust on the cards. Has a lucky monkey. Baby also has a green one. Sum it up: "It's okay just blame me, it's all my fault"! ( No one believes me--so I chose to stop posting)
March 4th, 2015 at 9:06:11 AM
permalink
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Clearly we were talking about this ...
Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 4th, 2015 at 9:48:54 AM
permalink
In the FWIW area, (and I haven't checked Wiki), I read a good bio of Ian Fleming a long time ago. If he were still around, he'd be a member here; he was a huge card player for big stakes, loved strategy. He was extremely good at complicated games, and back in the 50's it was a status thing that you played high-stakes bridge, gin rummy, and gambled. I've never questioned that he was describing real situations on real games he played (I play bridge and gin rummy, and the books were very faithful to the minutia), so I really do think they were playing Chemin de Fer as he describes it back then; he was very careful about describing dream scenarios for games he actually played. (The books are significantly different from the fantasies that the movies became, much grittier James and more possible villains). Now? No idea - leaving that to others.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
March 15th, 2015 at 3:44:29 PM
permalink
As I understand it, the present (seemingly complicated) rules for card-drawing at Baccarat are just the freezing of the perfect strategy for both sides in the original game of Chemin-de-Fer.
In the Bond novels (and one early film) you see Bond deliberately playing differently, arguing (feebly) that this is what makes a good player: knowing when to deviate from the statistics. I guess Varmenti and the like read too much spy fiction.
In the Bond novels (and one early film) you see Bond deliberately playing differently, arguing (feebly) that this is what makes a good player: knowing when to deviate from the statistics. I guess Varmenti and the like read too much spy fiction.
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
March 15th, 2015 at 5:15:55 PM
permalink
Quote: kubikulannAs I understand it, the present (seemingly complicated) rules for card-drawing at Baccarat are just the freezing of the perfect strategy for both sides in the original game of Chemin-de-Fer.
In the Bond novels (and one early film) you see Bond deliberately playing differently, arguing (feebly) that this is what makes a good player: knowing when to deviate from the statistics. I guess Varmenti and the like read too much spy fiction.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79An experienced player will use his experience to wager and capitalize on an easy winning decision.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
March 15th, 2015 at 5:20:30 PM
permalink
Quote: kubikulannAs I understand it, the present (seemingly complicated) rules for card-drawing at Baccarat are just the freezing of the perfect strategy for both sides in the original game of Chemin-de-Fer.
That is correct.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 20th, 2015 at 3:14:45 PM
permalink
I finally found a Chemin de Fer game at the Bet Voyager casino. I also cleaned up my own page on Chemin de Fer.
To expand on my last post, baccarat is what would happen if you forced the Player to hit on 5. The Banker strategy that follows is optimal. However, in Chemin de Fer, where there is free will, the Player should randomize and sometimes stand on 5. The Banker strategy should randomize on three plays, as my page explains.
To expand on my last post, baccarat is what would happen if you forced the Player to hit on 5. The Banker strategy that follows is optimal. However, in Chemin de Fer, where there is free will, the Player should randomize and sometimes stand on 5. The Banker strategy should randomize on three plays, as my page explains.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
