Mississippi Stud

Quote: anonimuss

The game protection employees are the ones that should uncover these plays. The better ones (counter catchers) were the earliest to catch on and react to holecarding games other than blackjack. They noticed known card counters suddenly playing other games and wondered why. They are the ones that sit home at night and surf the web, surf the manufacturers websites, observe what's going on in their casinos on games beyond blackjack. Many of them won't share the information because they feel as long as they drive you out of their place you'll go to one of their competitors and hurt them, making the sharp counter catchers look better when the numbers come out.

I have never met such a person or heard of such a job. This is news to me.

Quote: teliot

I have never met such a person or heard of such a job. This is news to me.

Funny. I've met or seen hundreds of counter catchers and game protection employees in casinos.

Quote: anonimuss

Funny. I've met or seen hundreds of counter catchers and game protection employees in casinos.

Game protection, of course, but no one with the specific job of "counter catcher." I know a lot of people in the industry in game protection, and I have never heard of such a thing as a dedicated job called "counter catcher" who roams from casino to casino. Wow. Okay. I'd like to meet one of these guys. The next time one backs you off, please ask him to introduce himself to me 8-)

Who said counter catchers roam from casino to casino? And I've been backed off twice in decades of play.

Quote: anonimuss

Who said counter catchers roam from casino to casino?

Okay, maybe I misunderstood this:

"Many of them won't share the information because they feel as long as they drive you out of their place you'll go to one of their competitors and hurt them, making the sharp counter catchers look better when the numbers come out."

Certainly many casinos have employees who are skilled at identifying counters. My error. I don't know about not wanting to share information. My experience is exactly the opposite -- casinos look after each other when it comes to AP.

Eliot it was very common on the east coast for casino's to have a dedicated counter catcher, or a so called count team.In the larger casino's they would spend the day roaming the pits or watching tapes of suspected counters.

Quote: Hunterhill

Eliot it was very common on the east coast for casino's to have a dedicated counter catcher, or a so called count team.In the larger casino's they would spend the day roaming the pits or watching tapes of suspected counters.

I suppose that was in the aftermath of Kenny.

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Thank you anonimuss!

So refreshing to see things stated as they are, as everyone knows they are but are too afraid to say.

I'd like to add to your list:

Any table where the dealer sits
Shiny coins
Shiny trays
Certain ashtrays

A multitude of others I cannot recall off the top of my head.

Words to remember:

Every single game is beatable to outright crushable (legally even) given the right set of circumstances/opportunity.

Only APs use shiny coins. Eliot has an advanced mathematical equation to prove it. You WILL be backed off unless you scuff up that coin, sir.

I'd like to add, you can post this information on billboards within the casino and opportunities will continue to exist. Re-emerge and expand. Those hired to protect the casino are paid such a mediocre wage they can barely attract the literate, never mind one capable of thinking outside the box. Beyond that, the suits looking after the bottom line evaluate a game based on hold and popularity. Only after an extended period of poor hold will they begin to look any further. Barring a massive hole in the game itself, an AP rarely offsets the income generated by the masses.

Quote: LVJackal

I'd like to add, you can post this information on billboards within the casino and opportunities will continue to exist. Re-emerge and expand. Those hired to protect the casino are paid such a mediocre wage they can barely attract the literate, never mind one capable of thinking outside the box. Beyond that, the suits looking after the bottom line evaluate a game based on hold and popularity. Only after an extended period of poor hold will they begin to look any further. Barring a massive hole in the game itself, an AP rarely offsets the income generated by the masses.

Concur, though not quite universally. There are a few very smart guys looking after a few select casinos.

Quote: LVJackal

Thank you anonimuss!

So refreshing to see things stated as they are, as everyone knows they are but are too afraid to say.

I'd like to add to your list:

Any table where the dealer sits
Shiny coins
Shiny trays
Certain ashtrays

A multitude of others I cannot recall off the top of my head.

Words to remember:

Every single game is beatable to outright crushable (legally even) given the right set of circumstances/opportunity.

What post are you replying to? What list are you adding to?

Quote: LVJackal

What is the relationship between a Jackal and a Bear?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And you can thank guys like Eliot, but not necessary him, for this.

Not gonna begrudge a guy for making a living. Life is one big advantage play.

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I concur with that, and I would also maintain that A.P. Heat is more an educational site than it is anything else which can also be used by Advantage players to perhaps learn about plays they may not have been previously aware of, or to mathematically quantify their advantage on plays that they did know about, but weren't sure of the exact advantage.

If the Advantage Player follows AP heat, then he is getting an excellent educational resource and free work done by one of the only bona fide professionals in the field that can aid him in his endeavors.

If a casino follows AP Heat, they could see a quantification of how bad their games are eating it to advantage players, and it is a free source of education on how to better protect their games.

If an AP who already knows all of these plays and how to get a general approximation of edge happens upon AP Heat, I could see where such an individual might be a bit irritated. Eliot is telling the houses how to combat such an individual, and in some cases, making them aware of the Advantage Play to begin with while simultaneously not really telling the advantage player in question anything he doesn't already know.

If someone is not a gambler, they might ask, "What the Hell does this have to do with Advanced Placement classes?"

Either way, A.P. Heat is there, for many with an interest in gambling, it is a resource, for a few it is a hindrance as it publicizes that which certain parties might wish to remain private, but it's there all the same.

Besides, imagine a would-be Advantage Player who is not aware of 3CP vulnerabilities, learns about them, and starts kicking the metaphorical teeth in of a casino that does not follow A.P. Heat. Such a casino might ask, "Why the Hell is 3CP losing money, there's not much Variance there!?" At that point, they find AP Heat, and they send the Surveillance Director to a seminar. Profit.

If you ask me, Teliot is a true baller. He corrects problems while creating a need for the problem to be corrected, how much more AP can you get than that?

Quote: Mission146

If you ask me, Teliot is a true baller. He corrects problems while creating a need for the problem to be corrected, how much more AP can you get than that?

I think you got it mostly right. However, I don't think that many card counters find my site and are suddenly enlightened. It takes a good knock on the head to get beyond counting. And, I would like to argue that I have the most current stuff. I am one guy trying to figure out a world of stuff in a purely abstract way. The best APs are in the street looking at everything with fresh eyes every day. They are miles ahead of me.

Quote: Mission146

If you ask me, Teliot is a true baller. He corrects problems while creating a need for the problem to be corrected, how much more AP can you get than that?

I think that this is exactly the thing that a lot of people have a problem with.

Quote: teliot

I think you got it mostly right. However, I don't think that many card counters find my site and are suddenly enlightened. It takes a good knock on the head to get beyond counting. And, I would like to argue that I have the most current stuff. I am one guy trying to figure out a world of stuff in a purely abstract way. The best APs are in the street looking at everything with fresh eyes every day. They are miles ahead of me.

I agree that current counters may not have quite the use for the site that I suggested, but if an AP is in an area with multiple opportunities and wants to know which opportunity will best balance his risk/reward and is efficient in terms of learning how to do it Optimally, then it's all right there for him, quantified.

Imagine there are two flashing dealers at a casino and one is usually on MS and one is on 3CP, he can look and see which game is more valuable for his time, certainly he'll play either one if the other is not available, but he knows which is BEST when they are both available. That may not be the best possible individual example, but I think it is clear what I am getting at.

Again, the best AP's are the ones who will never send you a Christmas card, to them you're just the guy blowing out their games by telling the world stuff that (until that point) only they know. Like the edge-sorting stuff, easiest fix in the world, but a house may never have realized it is being used against them until they go to A.P. Heat, or perhaps one of your seminars, and you say, "You know what, these cards blow, but even if you want to use cards that blow, just have the dealer rotate them 180 degrees before reinserting them into the shuffler."

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I think that this is exactly the thing that a lot of people have a problem with.

I would suggest that some, but not all, of those people are jealous they didn't think of it first. That said, I do think other AP's may have a personal (and to them, legitimate) moral problem with what Teliot is doing.

I also think those AP's may equate Teliot to the mechanic who ****s up your car when he is supposed to be doing a routine oil change, but is all friendliness and ear-to-ear smiles to your face, because he knows that you will come to him to get the very expensive problem with your car, that he caused, fixed. I do not view Teliot that way, though, I think of him more as an arms dealer who supplies both sides in a war because he doesn't truly care who wins, he just likes making that chedda'.

And, if there's a problem with making that chedda', G**D***it, this ain't America!

Quote: Mission146

I do not view Teliot that way, though, I think of him more as an arms dealer who supplies both sides in a war because he doesn't truly care who wins, he just likes making that chedda'!

Wow, that's pretty dark. I just view myself as a guy who obsesses over numbers, enjoys writing small computer programs and excel spread sheets, likes to write a lot, and enjoys having a bit of celebrity, no matter its color. Mostly, I obsess. Everything else seems to follow from that.

By the way, don't you think you should be suspended for your comments about me, comparing me to an arms dealer? I think that could fall under the ad hominem rule given the negative connotations usually associated with the phrase. (Joking. Feeling your pain as expressed in another thread.)

Quote: teliot

Wow, that's pretty dark. I just view myself as a guy who obsesses over numbers, enjoys writing small computer programs and excel spread sheets, likes to write a lot, and enjoys having a bit of celebrity, no matter its color. Mostly, I obsess. Everything else seems to follow from that.

You view it as a double-negative. I view it as a double-positive. I am not an arms dealer. I am a food merchant. Today I am giving away LRT3, may both sides enjoy their free meal.

Okay, I will hereby adopt the view you have of yourself, then. You're certainly going to be more accurate in what your objectives are than I am!

I don't view most things as negative or positive. I view rape and murder and things like that as negative, I view treating children kindly as a positive. Everything else just, "Is what it is," my Philosophy is a combination of Stoicism and Logical Positivism.

People have goals, morals and values. I don't think any of these things are fundamentally inherent, I don't think that they even could be because I don't know that a human being left to fend for himself from a very young age (in the unlikely event he survived) would exhibit any sort of moral code that we would recognize as learned and developed. If I posit that as true, then I have to accept that our moral codes are either taught to us or based upon our experiences in life.

Your perspective on the matter, from what I have read is, "I suck at being an AP because I don't like the risk and have trouble getting the cash down, but I really love the Math behind it. I don't want to do a more traditional job because that would take my focus off of doing this Math and writing these computer programs, so I have to find a way to work in the field of advantage play without actually being a full-time advantage player."

Voila! A.P. Heat.

I'm not even saying that you would have chosen this amongst every other possible option in which you essentially get to work for yourself. I imagine if an AP Team had come to you, prior to you creating A.P. Heat and offered you a reasonable amount of money just for your ability to do the Math, Programming and Simulating, you would have taken it.

I guess that was kind of my point. You don't have a moral position on Advantage Play, you just love what you are doing, so you could work for either side and be happy as long as it provided a sustainable living. That's all I meant by chedda', you've already stated that you are not getting rich off of this.

I'm going to go enjoy my meal, now, I like learning about everything. I hope you did not take offense to my post, I try not to make comments that have a negative context, and no comment I ever make is really intended that way about people I like, and I like you, I just have observations.

There was a book written about gambling in the 16th century. Talked about "shiners' even back then.

Quote: Mission146

I think of him more as an arms dealer who supplies both sides in a war because he doesn't truly care who wins, he just likes making that chedda'.

Yeah, exactly. A lot of people have problems with that too.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yeah, exactly. A lot of people have problems with that too.

So if it's not a question of ethics, why don't the darksiders recruit him instead of reviling him? Seems like a strategic win to me. Apologies in advance to either party if it's a naive suggestion.

Quote: beachbumbabs

So if it's not a question of ethics, why don't the darksiders recruit him instead of reviling him? Seems like a strategic win to me. Apologies in advance to either party if it's a naive suggestion.

If I had to guess, it's that he (like any good academic) wouldn't keep his results secret. Publish or perish!

Quote: beachbumbabs

So if it's not a question of ethics, why don't the darksiders recruit him instead of reviling him? Seems like a strategic win to me. Apologies in advance to either party if it's a naive suggestion.

I think it is a question of ethics. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but I also don't take everything that he says at face value.

It is similar to listening to any company market their product. You have to realize that they are not giving an honest evaluation; they are speaking in a way that will maximize the sales of their product. It's not even about honesty vs dishonesty; it's about spin. I think of it like the DeBeers marketing campaign which created an artificial demand for diamonds and created the ridiculous belief that they are valuable, while at the same time controlling supply. Some people have a problem with this; some people don't, but either way it makes sense to educate yourself about it and realize where the message is coming from.

Quote: beachbumbabs

So if it's not a question of ethics, why don't the darksiders recruit him instead of reviling him? Seems like a strategic win to me. Apologies in advance to either party if it's a naive suggestion.

I am guessing you don't know much of my history. You probably don't want to get that thread started here, you would find yourself with a lot of admin work on your hands. As for recruiting me, I really don't want any part of that. I've got a nice life.

Quote: teliot

I am guessing you don't know much of my history. You probably don't want to get that thread started here, you would find yourself with a lot of admin work on your hands. As for recruiting me, I really don't want any part of that. I've got a nice life.

I bought your book, thanks very much, and I've read a fair amount of the info on APHeat, thanks again, and I've heard you lecture, ditto. This thread was the first where you left any question about it in my mind. You do discuss publicly that you spent some time as an AP before you began doing what you're doing now, and you may still be APing for all I know. But if it hasn't been made public, I probably don't know it. At your suggestion, I withdraw the question.