Your Thoughts on Three Card Poker
Quote: PaigowdanAgain, the only two people who win at a casino are:
1. The casino owner and those who get a paycheck, and;
2. Those who go for a simple good time, without getting slick.
All others are eventual losers. And the casino industry banks on this ALL.
This is completely, 100% wrong and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it will always be wrong! Pretending that all AP is folly and there are no professional APs is just...god I hate this conversation.
I would LOVE for a casino to back room me or try to arrest me for taking advantage of a sloppy 3CP dealer - I've got Bob Nersesian on speed dial, that would be the best +EV play of my life.
Okay, I'm done now. Why do I keep responding to these posts.
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: PaigowdanAgain, the only two people who win at a casino are:
1. The casino owner and those who get a paycheck, and;
2. Those who go for a simple good time, without getting slick.
All others are eventual losers. And the casino industry banks on this ALL.
This is completely, 100% wrong and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it will always be wrong! Pretending that all AP is folly and there are no professional APs is just...
It isn't wrong, the industry was built on casino winnings, not casino losses.
Quote: AcesAndEights...god I hate this conversation.
Then you are at the wrong board. If you think 100% of gaming people would rubber stamp that AP play/shot-taking, or any type of casino malfeasance as to be endorsed, you're kidding yourself. What did you expect?
Quote: AcesAndEightsI would LOVE for a casino to back room me or try to arrest me for taking advantage of a sloppy 3CP dealer - I've got Bob Nersesian on speed dial, that would be the best +EV play of my life.
Keep daydreaming:
1. Casinos wouldn't waste their time backrooming you or anyone else. This type of thinking is stuck in the 1970's, or watching too many Joe Pesci movies.
2. You get 86-ed, or arrested for cause, you'd be wasting Bob's time and your money for a negative EV.
Quote: AceAndEightWhy do I keep responding to these posts.
Figure it out, and then tell us.
I used Bob's services for an illegal backrooming for hole-carding Three Card Poker and had a nice settlement with the casino. Here is my account: my backrooming experience. Although I was a weak AP, I knew many very strong APs who made well over 100k per year. I am no longer an AP.Quote: Paigowdan
1. Casinos wouldn't waste their time backrooming you or anyone else. This type of thinking is stuck in the 1970's, or watching too many Joe Pesci movies.
2. You get 86-ed, or arrested for cause, you'd be wasting Bob's time and your money for a negative EV.
Quote: Paigowdan
2. You get 86-ed, or arrested for cause, you'd be wasting Bob's time and your money for a negative EV.
The action described is NOT illegal, so arrested for cause is out. And arrested without cause is the part where Bob comes into play...
Quote: AcesAndEightsThis is completely, 100% wrong and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it will always be wrong! Pretending that all AP is folly and there are no professional APs is just...god I hate this conversation.
So stop having it?
Every time there is a decent AP thread on this board, where useful information might be exchanged, it's derailed by Paigowdan making some ridiculous claims about AP play being cheating, or winning APs not existing, or some other nonsense, and everyone jumping up to point out how he is wrong. He is either grossly misinformed or just trolling, but, either way, he is not going to stop, and, worse, it's not useful in any way. He is not going to change your mind and you are certainly not going to change his. Remember that the last word doesn't win.
So, instead of talking about this, yet again... I suggest we talk about 3CP :) In particular, how common are sloppy dealers, really? I've looked for it and never seen it, but maybe my eyes aren't great. The only really sloppy dealer I've ever seen was at UTH, and that guy was literally putting down his hole cards one at a time, holding them at about an 80 degree angle to the felt (holding one edge with his hand, and the other edge on the felt) before letting them drop. I think he was trying to deal with a flourish, but, the result was that, from my position at 3rd base, he was showing me each card for a full half second before letting it drop. That was so ridiculous it was funny.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo stop having it?
Every time there is a decent AP thread on this board, where useful information might be exchanged, it's derailed by Paigowdan making some ridiculous claims about AP play being cheating, or winning APs not existing, or some other nonsense, and everyone jumping up to point out how he is wrong. He is either grossly misinformed or just trolling, but, either way, he is not going to stop, and, worse, it's not useful in any way. He is not going to change your mind and you are certainly not going to change his. Remember that the last word doesn't win.
This is not about the last word, it is about being able to express the position that that some AP is true malfeasance, and that it provides little in the area longevity and ethics.
I will point out that:
1. AP is ultimately doomed - you simply never win in the end. All doors close. It is neither a wise or "advisable" career choice in gaming and drives up costs and house edges for both honest good-faith players and for casino workers.
2. That casino malfeasance is fully addressable by the casinos - and that casino operators have a right to address any threat to them. HOW they do it is subject to law, but yes, some "AP Play" is illegal, and ALL AP play that is against the house rules is subject to back offs and expulsion without it being legally arguable (and no, I am not talking about Backroom B.S. here). Granted, some temporary windows ARE open for advantage, but ALL AP play that is against casino policy is asking for trouble.
3. Yes, there are winning AP players. for that matter, there are successful corporate embezzlers who made it through their careers with great success. To take a contrarian position to renounce such malfeasance would be asking for trouble in of all places a gaming forum.
Quote: AxiomSo, instead of talking about this, yet again... I suggest we talk about 3CP :) In particular, how common are sloppy dealers, really?
Not that common, but beating down a freakin' break-in dealer is neither true gambling or ethical behavior. It's like countefeiting transit passes or sneaking Buffet food out in tupperware containers, saying, "Well, it's THEIR fault for their sloppy business protection."
As for suing rogue operators who do indeed backroom people as an AP play, I think it is a silly thing to look for and hope for. That is like staging an accident on a casino escalator, and then running to a lawyer to sue, as an AP play.
I think playing fully by the casino house rules is proper behavior, much in the same way that paying the taxes you do legitimately owe is the best tax shelter.
Quote: teliotI used Bob's services for an illegal backrooming for hole-carding Three Card Poker and had a nice settlement with the casino. Here is my account: my backrooming experience. Although I was a weak AP, I knew many very strong APs who made well over 100k per year. I am no longer an AP.
1. Eliot, you were already in the Griffin Book, and knew what you were doing when you entered the premises, AND sat down at a gaming table.
2. You were NOT backroomed, - you were not beaten up, and you were not held to be arrested by the police. They did make some allusions to this. You were cuffed, involved in an unpleasant conversation, told you were trespasing, and expelled from the premises.
3. You were fearful and paranoid of your own accord, later barricating your hotel room door with furniture when you were not in danger. (Did you really expect Joe Pesci to bust in with an ice pick? I hold you accountable for this outright fantasy.)
4. And You got a nice cash settlement. And ALL are right about this - now that was an AP play.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrNext time the casino puts up a bad line for a college football game, should I refrain from betting it because it is unfair to the casino for me to take advantage of their error?
No - you'd be foolish to not take the best odds, everytime.
What I am saying is that you take the best odds or conditions - that are within the house rules of play.
Quote: PaigowdanThis is not about the last word, it is about being able to express the position that that some AP is true malfeasance, and that it provides little in the area longevity and ethics.
Actually, I'd say that AP is any +EV play *except* true malfeasance. Hole carding and card counting, both of which have been ruled by the NV courts as legal activities, are not malfeasance:
Quote: Lyons v. StateIn contrast, consider the gaming patrons who are specially gifted and can increase the odds in their favor by "card counting." Or perhaps the patron who notices and takes advantage of a dealer's habit of play that will occasionally provide an unintended view of the dealer's cards. Unquestionably, neither category of patron would be subject to prosecution under the statute, although casino management may take measures to deny them the right to play. In both cases, the players simply exploit what their skills and the play of the games will afford them.
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=1989994775P2d219_1993.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006
In contrast, colluding with a dealer to flash hole cards would be cheating. That's not AP, that's a crime. The courts recognize a legal distinction even if you don't.
Quote: MathExtremistActually, I'd say that AP is any +EV play *except* true malfeasance. Hole carding and card counting, both of which have been ruled by the NV courts as legal activities, are not malfeasance:
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=1989994775P2d219_1993.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006
In contrast, colluding with a dealer to flash hole cards would be cheating. That's not AP, that's a crime. The courts recognize a legal distinction even if you don't.
Stacy, for the record, I recognize the legal disctinctions, I really do. I don't feel people should be imprisoned for card counting, and I also say that you will not get a criminal record and locked up for card counting. However, the courts don't run the casinos, the casino operators do. All the courts say is that there is no criminal record or jail time for card counting, - that's it. The courts also say that casino operators may deny play to those who do not play by in an acceptable fashion to the operator.
So Answer this:
1. true, while card counting won't get you jail time, is it just as fully legal for the casino to flat bet you, bar you from table tables, or have you leave the premises upon request or demand? I say yes.
2. And if so, is it because it is malfeasance in the casino's eyes, or that it is "just dandy" in the casino's eyes, and you get flat-betted and expelled because it is Tuesday, and it happens to be raining.
In other words:
1. The rules of game play are set by the casinos, - and not by the courts.
2. If you do not play by the (house) rules, - you do not get the right to play, and you get anything from flat-betted to 86-ed, - and as approved by the courts. However, you do not get physical assaulted, and this hasn't happened since the Chicago Mob ran Las Vegas.
Just the other day, a nutty "shot taker" on dice would do legal things like throw all five dice when presented the dice as a new shoter, demand that his $30 place-6 bet look like "thirty white chips," and make a $50 pass line bet via a stack of 50 white.
He also claimed that he may legally do this - and he is right.
We claimed that we will ask im to leave, and leave he did. All without cheating, or even AP play. Or an arrest or jail time. Just right out the door.
As per the house rules.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrWhere do the rules say I cannot look at the dealers cards as he moves them from the shuffler to the table?
Depends on how you look at them.
If the hole-carding is when the dealer is flashing the cards - without any effort of your part, - it is on the dealer, and is legal for you. And this often happens.
If you are taking extra steps to see the hole cards when you are not supposed to, then it is on you.
So it depends on the situation.
Any chance of getting this back on topic? This "malfeasance" has been discussed to death many times already. The topic is 3CP, not the legality of AP play (which everyone seems to agree on) or the morality of AP play (which we all won't ever agree on).
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSigh... trolling claims another thread.
Any chance of getting this back on topic? This "malfeasance" has been discussed to death many times already. The topic is 3CP, not the legality of AP play (which everyone seems to agree on) or the morality of AP play (which we all won't ever agree on).
This isn't trolling, this is a good discussion, showing where the line is, - AND as it relates to such things as Three Card Poker hole-carding. You don't like the opinions discussed, you'' call it trolling simply because you disagree with my POV, which is okay with me. So it should also be okay if I disagree with some views expressed.
As for three card poker, here it is:
1. You make an ANTE bet and get three cards, to be played as a poker hand.
2. you play by making a bet of the same size as the ANTE bet, or you may fold.
3. There is an additional bonus bet called the Pair Plus, which pays if your three card hand has a pair or better.
4. Dealer qualifies with a Q-high or better, and hands are compared. If the dealer doesn't qualify, the ANTE gets paid, the PLAY pushes, and the pair plus is evaluated separately.
5. The optimal player strategy is to play Q-6-4 or better.
And that is it. any further discussion may involve discussions of AP play, so don't complain about that. Legit AP play in three card poker involves always using optimal strategy of Q-6-4. Hole-carding is legal by state statute when dealer is flashing hole cards, but is considered wrong doing by the casino if the player takes extra action to hole card. It is also consider dealer error or wrong doing by the casino operator for the dealer to flash his hole cards. In other words, if hole carding is occuring on a Three Card poker Game, then someone is doing something wrong in the casino's eye, either the player or the dealer. Always.
Quote: PaigowdanAgain, the only two people who win at a casino are:
1. The casino owner
2. The Nevada Gaming Comission
All others are eventual losers. And the casino industry banks on this ALL.
NOW this comment is correct.
Quote: PaigowdanStacy, for the record, I recognize the legal disctinctions, I really do. I don't feel people should be imprisoned for card counting, and I also say that you will not get a criminal record and locked up for card counting. However, the courts don't run the casinos, the casino operators do. All the courts say is that there is no criminal record or jail time for card counting, - that's it. The courts also say that casino operators may deny play to those who do not play by in an acceptable fashion to the operator.
Exactly: "casino management may take measures to deny them the right to play." But that's different than malfeasance. "Malfeasance" = intentionally performing an illegal or wrongful act, usually by a public official. Card counting isn't malfeasance, it's just gaming the system in the same way something like "extreme couponing" is gaming the grocery system. As a (former) casino employee, you don't have to like everything your players do -- and you clearly don't -- but accusing them of wrongful acts is inaccurate.
Quote: TIMSPEEDQuote: PaigowdanAgain, the only two people who win at a casino are:
1. The casino owner
2. The Nevada Gaming Comission
All others are eventual losers. And the casino industry banks on this ALL.
NOW this comment is correct.
First of all, that is not my quote, that is your quote attributed to me.
Secondly, it is not correct.
People who leave with more money, or break even, or simply had a good time, are winners enough. And there are more than enough of them to make the gaming industry successful.
Quote: MathExtremistExactly: "casino management may take measures to deny them the right to play." But that's different than malfeasance. "Malfeasance" = intentionally performing an illegal or wrongful act, usually by a public official. Card counting isn't malfeasance, it's just gaming the system in the same way something like "extreme couponing" is gaming the grocery system. As a (former) casino employee, you don't have to like everything your players do -- and you clearly don't -- but accusing them of wrongful acts is inaccurate.
If you get backed off or expelled by a casino, you clearly committed a wrongful act in the casino eyes. This is unquestionable. It is also unquestionable that a casino may deny a person play if they see fit, and the courts support this; if there is quibbling about "malfeasance" versus "wrongdoing", then know its intent is that of "wrongdoing."
in other words, it is legal for a casino to deny someone play, AND because it was precisely considered wrongdoing/malfeasance by the casino operator. And card counting is intentionally performing a wrongful act (in the casino's eyes), and they legally back off you. Card counting is not "unintentional." This is exactly the situation.
I am a current casino employee, and I can assure you that card counting is considered wrongful action by management that can bar a player from play. We actually do it all the time. For that matter, stacking up a $50 bet as 50 white chips can bar you from play. And that is not malfeasance; that is just acting infantile and disruptive only, - and is grounds enough.
Quote: PaigowdanI am a current casino employee,
I thought you were retiring. No?
Quote: MathExtremistI thought you were retiring. No?
Yes, in a number of weeks, before Christmas....
Quote: PaigowdanFor that matter, stacking up a $50 bet as 50 white chips can bar you from play. And that is not malfeasance; that is just acting infantile and disruptive only, - and is grounds enough.
You're actually saying the player can be 86ed simply for using casino chips as betting instruments? What happens to the incompetent dealer who managed to give a player 50 white chips?
Quote: rdw4potusYou're actually saying the player can be 86ed simply for using casino chips as betting instruments?
No, I didn't say that.
What I said was that the player was misusing these "betting instruments" in a deliberately disruptive manner. He tried to slow down a jammed up game, and to just be an annoying prick for laughs and giggles - while he was infuriating other, more valued, players. He was told to cut out his silly shenanigans or take a hike; he took a hike in the end. He was previously warned, to boot.
Quote: rdw4potusWhat happens to the incompetent dealer who managed to give a player 50 white chips?
They get warned to either "shape up or ship out." A dealer would have to work pretty hard to be that incompetent and moronic, as it would be a cinch to pay $50 in the form of two green chips, and be done with it.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo stop having it?
Check.
Quote:So, instead of talking about this, yet again... I suggest we talk about 3CP :) In particular, how common are sloppy dealers, really? I've looked for it and never seen it, but maybe my eyes aren't great. The only really sloppy dealer I've ever seen was at UTH, and that guy was literally putting down his hole cards one at a time, holding them at about an 80 degree angle to the felt (holding one edge with his hand, and the other edge on the felt) before letting them drop. I think he was trying to deal with a flourish, but, the result was that, from my position at 3rd base, he was showing me each card for a full half second before letting it drop. That was so ridiculous it was funny.
I spent some time scouting 3CP games in Vegas last weekend. Flashers are uncommon and possibly rare depending on your definition. Many times you will identify a flasher but the required seat is already taken. Some casinos still have the old-school ace shufflers (in fact I'm pretty sure I found at least one of the exact tables pictured in that post), but I find flashing to be almost as common with the new flush-mounted machines, as many dealers tilt the card up toward the players inadvertently.
Anyway, my suggestion if you want to scout for good 1CP games is to canvass the smaller casinos. I didn't scout all that long on my trip, but found one nearly-exploitable opportunity. I feel like I was getting the card about 75% of the time, which I believe puts you past the break-even point, but significantly cuts into the edge (Grosjean has the numbers in CAA but I don't have them in front of me).
Quote: AcesAndEights
I spent some time scouting 3CP games in Vegas last weekend. Flashers are uncommon and possibly rare depending on your definition. Many times you will identify a flasher but the required seat is already taken. Some casinos still have the old-school ace shufflers (in fact I'm pretty sure I found at least one of the exact tables pictured in that post), but I find flashing to be almost as common with the new flush-mounted machines, as many dealers tilt the card up toward the players inadvertently.
Anyway, my suggestion if you want to scout for good 1CP games is to canvass the smaller casinos. I didn't scout all that long on my trip, but found one nearly-exploitable opportunity. I feel like I was getting the card about 75% of the time, which I believe puts you past the break-even point, but significantly cuts into the edge (Grosjean has the numbers in CAA but I don't have them in front of me).
I'm actually more interested in it theoretically than in practice. I mean, if it was there, and obvious, I would take it, but I wouldn't take the time to go searching for it or anything. I still mostly go to casinos to lose money :)
Unfortunately I am not so privileged that I have a copy of the holy scripture :) but according to Eliot Jacobson's site the house has a 3.373% edge normally, and you have a 3.483% edge if you see the card. So, if you see the card 75% of the time, you edge should be 1.769% Break-even should be seeing it a little under 50% of the time.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: AcesAndEights
Unfortunately I am not so privileged that I have a copy of the holy scripture :) but according to Eliot Jacobson's site the house has a 3.373% edge normally, and you have a 3.483% edge if you see the card. So, if you see the card 75% of the time, you edge should be 1.769% Break-even should be seeing it a little under 50% of the time.
That's the logic Grosjean uses and the reason a ton of people lost money betting their shirts on this play when they get a partial read.
If you use this approach then you'll find that you are losing more money than you should be when you don't get a read. The reason is that "no read" isn't really no read. Certain cards, paint particulary are easier to pick out than others. The chances are that the dealer card is not a genuinely random card, meaning that basic strategy is sub-optimal for this play. The house edge is going to be higher than it is normally. There's no easy mathematical solution to this because the bias depends partly on your personal speed of vision.
To be honest I wouldn't wipe my arse with this gigantic turd of an over-hyped play, especially when you add in scouting time, what can be an incredibly slow game, the difficulty of following a specific loader around, and so on. You need to know more than one card really or you might as well be counting cards or something. If you must do it with one card then make sure you get a completely accurate read.
Also, someone just hit their PGP progressive at about $125k. Huge -EV, but a big win for someone.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI agree. I wont play a flasher unless its 100% with maybe a few unknowns due to distactions. When I played the other night, I got the exact denomination including paints and aces every time with zero errors.
If were a pro AP I would definitely not play marginal games like the one I was trying to play in Vegas. But if I were a pro I would have more time to scout...
Quote: IbeatyouracesFor all you jackpot chasers, the progressive at Motorcity is currently a bit over $16,040.
It's a $1 progressive? What're the table limits? Are there any...umm...other benefits to playing that game? On a $5 table, that's worth about $200-$300 in EV over the course of a weekend. Not going to get me to Detroit, but not bad, either.
