Open Face Chinese

heres a game ive been playing a lot you guys might find fun. its for 2-3 players. you end up with 13 cards total and must make 2 5card hands and 1 3card hand. your bottom hand has to beat your middle hand and your middle hand must beat your 3card hand. you get dealt 5cards initially and place them where you want. then you get dealt 1 card at a time placing them where you want. all cards are placed faceup. you cant rearrange cards once theyre placed. players alternate turns drawing and placing cards.

its a point based game. you score 2pts if 2 of your hands win. you score 4pts for 2 wins and a copy. you score 6pts for a scoop. you compare your hand against each opponent to score. there are also royalties in the game. here are the current royalties weve been playing with. you can only make highcard, a pair, or trips in the 3card hand. its also double the points if you make a hand in the middle. if you foul your hand you get scooped and collect no royalties.


for the 5card hands:

100pts royal flush
50pts straight flush
25pts quads
10pts full house
6pts flush
4pts straight
2pts trips

for the 3card hand:

2pts 66
4pts 77
6pts 88
8pts TT
10pts JJ
12pts QQ
14pts KK
16pts AA
18pts 222
20pts 333
22pts 444
24pts 555
26pts 666
28pts 777
30pts 888
32pts 999
34pts TTT
36pts JJJ
38pts QQQ
40pts KKK
42pts AAA

I just saw this game being played at The Orleans this week. I'm thinking of bringing it to my Casino. I believe it's picking up in popularity. It was being played for pretty big stakes, with a few thousand dollars in front of each person.

If anyone has played it at The Orleans (or Las Vegas anywhere), can you give your thoughts on it?

From what I could tell while playing at other tables:

Players get dealt 5 cards to start. Player left of the button starts and begins creating 3 hands. Back (5 card hand that must be the strongest), Middle (5 card hand that must be 2nd strongest) and Front (3 card hand that must be the lowest. Flushes and straights don't count.).

After everyone sets their 5 cards in order, 1 card is dealt per round. Player left of the button starts and places his and play moves clockwise ending with the button.

After everyone gets all 13 cards, hands are compared.

If you have a fouled hand (any of the required stronger hands are not stronger than the one in front of it) you lose all 3 hands to any non fouled hands.

2 - 4 people can play
The Orleans collects $10 from each person prior to the hand. $5 for the house and $5 for the dealers.
I think they were playing $25 units.
There are no betting rounds. All payments are made from player to player after all cards are dealt and hands are determined.
If you are player 1 and you beat player 2 in two of your three hands, he would owe you one unit, unless you had trips in your front hand (trips bonus).
If you sweep someone you get 3 units (all 3 hands win). Not sure if you get a bonus for a sweep. Sometimes it's a 3 point bonus.

Front hand bonuses are:

3 of a Kind Twos (2, 2, 2) = 10 points
3 of a Kind Threes (3, 3, 3) = 11 points
3 of a Kind Fours (4, 4, 4) = 12 points
3 of a Kind Fives (5, 5, 5) = 13 points
3 of a Kind Sixes (6, 6, 6) = 14 points
3 of a Kind Sevens (7, 7, 7) = 15 points
3 of a Kind Eights (8, 8, 8) = 16 points
3 of a Kind Nines (9, 9, 9) = 17 points
3 of a Kind Tens (10, 10, 10) = 18 points
3 of a Kind Jacks (J, J, J) = 19 points
3 of a Kind Queens (Q, Q, Q) = 20 points
3 of a Kind Kings (K, K, K) = 21 points
3 of a Kind Aces (A, A, A) = 22 points

I'm sure there is more to it. I'm going to have to go back and watch/play. It seems very interesting.


ZCore13

$5 + $5 per hand? that's robbery!

I have been following Open Face Chinese on and off on 2+2, but I don't have the balls to try it in Vegas.

It's usually 6 points for a sweep, or 1 point if you win 2 out of 3. Bonuses on top tend to begin where rudeboyoi says (I think). And often "Fantasyland" is played where if you can make QQ+ on top, you get to play the next hand like regular Chinese poker. There are other royalty values for middle and back hands as well similar to what rudeboyoi posted, but I have no idea how much variance there is in the rules. Tons of stuff on 2+2 about it. Big Open Face Chinese thread in "Draw/Other Poker" at 2+2.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Isn't this game supposed to be a bracelet event at next years WSOP?

Not sure, but I would expect it to be given its popularity, particularly among top players.

Quote: tringlomane

$5 + $5 per hand? that's robbery!

I have been following Open Face Chinese on and off on 2+2, but I don't have the balls to try it in Vegas.

It's usually 6 points for a sweep, or 1 point if you win 2 out of 3. Bonuses on top tend to begin where rudeboyoi says (I think). And often "Fantasyland" is played where if you can make QQ+ on top, you get to play the next hand like regular Chinese poker. There are other royalty values for middle and back hands as well similar to what rudeboyoi posted, but I have no idea how much variance there is in the rules. Tons of stuff on 2+2 about it. Big Open Face Chinese thread in "Draw/Other Poker" at 2+2.

From what I understand, $5+$5 is not too bad since it's for every limit and they are playing very high limit at the Orleans. It would be a lot for a $5 unit game I think. It's a slow game. Probably 1 hand every 10 minutes or so.

6 sounds right for the sweep. As I mentioned, 1 point for each of the hands one (3) and then a 3 point bonus for a sweep, for a total of 6.

I don't know if they were playing Fantasyland or any other variations. I can't afford to play $25 units with high caliber players. I'm going to have to look for a lower limit room to try and learn the Casino game. I've been playing online and learning, but it's not the same as the Casino version.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

From what I understand, $5+$5 is not too bad since it's for every limit and they are playing very high limit at the Orleans. It would be a lot for a $5 unit game I think. It's a slow game. Probably 1 hand every 10 minutes or so.

6 sounds right for the sweep. As I mentioned, 1 point for each of the hands one (3) and then a 3 point bonus for a sweep, for a total of 6.

I don't know if they were playing Fantasyland or any other variations. I can't afford to play $25 units with high caliber players. I'm going to have to look for a lower limit room to try and learn the Casino game. I've been playing online and learning, but it's not the same as the Casino version.

ZCore13

Well, $120/hr for the house is ~close to right if the rate is ~6 hands/hr (I feel like they should be okay with $4 a hand though 4 handed), but $120/hr for the dealer for a 4 player game? That's pretty outrageous.

Quote: tringlomane

Well, $120/hr for the house is ~close to right if the rate is ~6 hands/hr (I feel like they should be okay with $4 a hand though 4 handed), but $120/hr for the dealer for a 4 player game? That's pretty outrageous.

It might have been even slower than 1 per 10 minutes. It's pretty slow. Also, the game started with 2 players usually, then a 3rd joined, then a 4th later. 2 played for a long time.

Like I said, I don't know all the details. Maybe some of my details are off, but I'll be finding out more soon...

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

It might have been even slower than 1 per 10 minutes. It's pretty slow. Also, the game started with 2 players usually, then a 3rd joined, then a 4th later. 2 played for a long time.

Like I said, I don't know all the details. Maybe some of my details are off, but I'll be finding out more soon...

ZCore13

Yeah, but the high costs vs. the stakes I would want to play means I can't play this in a casino. They want a full table rake split among four players. This is another reason why Holdem/Omaha is more apt to run in a casino. Getting a mix game off the ground is a struggle unless stakes are high. Orleans has been spreading some 4/8 Mix lately though.

Quote: tringlomane

Yeah, but the high costs vs. the stakes I would want to play means I can't play this in a casino. They want a full table rake split among four players. This is another reason why Holdem/Omaha is more apt to run in a casino. Getting a mix game off the ground is a struggle unless stakes are high. Orleans has been spreading some 4/8 Mix lately though.

That was just at The Orleans and they were definitely high limit players. If I were to bring it into my place I might have $2 and $5 units and $3+2 or $4+2 or something like that.

The Orleans had 2 or 3 4/8 Omaha all the time. 2 2/4 Holdem games. 1 or 2 1/3 NL Holdem games. And some, but not much play on 4/8 mixed.

ZCore13

Clearly the Wizard likes to review all games he knows about, is the name really "open face chinese"?

https://wizardofodds.com/games/

Quote: odiousgambit

Clearly the Wizard likes to review all games he knows about, is the name really "open face chinese"?

https://wizardofodds.com/games/

He's never discussed poker variants outside of Texas Hold'em. If he does this, he really should do an article on Omaha and Stud too...lol

I looked up both versions "Chinese" and "Open-Face Chinese"... wow no wonder 6-10 hph.
I guess the only thing worse would be if each Player was dealt from a separate deck (foil the Stuey's...lol).

Re: 5 + 5 fee... not terrible considering the kilo-dollars on the table. 40/2000 is only 2%. Most rakes a little (a lot) worse.

Played at the Orleans last week. $5 per point. Got my A%# handed to me. Lost $550 in less than 2 hours. Nice lesson though. :)

Also started it at my Casino 2 weeks ago. Low limit mostly. $1-$3 per point. Had some action but it's going to take time to train people how to play. Everyone that's tried it likes it. It will be in the local poker magazines in December too so that should help. Only place in Az to play it.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Played at the Orleans last week. $5 per point. Got my A%# handed to me. Lost $550 in less than 2 hours. Nice lesson though. :)

Also started it at my Casino 2 weeks ago. Low limit mostly. $1-$3 per point. Had some action but it's going to take time to train people how to play. Everyone that's tried it likes it. It will be in the local poker magazines in December too so that should help. Only place in Az to play it.


ZCore13

I would love to try this game. Sounds like a lot of fun. Where are you finding it online, and under what name? Thanks!

EDIT: found what seems to be a pretty good guide to the game here though he skipped Quads in the hand rank...oops!

Kudos to you Zcore for spreading the game beyond Nevada! If it bothered to become legal in Missouri id try it, but that's unlikely to happen I think.

Quote: Zcore13

Played at the Orleans last week. $5 per point. Got my A%# handed to me. Lost $550 in less than 2 hours. Nice lesson though. :)

Also started it at my Casino 2 weeks ago. Low limit mostly. $1-$3 per point. Had some action but it's going to take time to train people how to play. Everyone that's tried it likes it. It will be in the local poker magazines in December too so that should help. Only place in Az to play it.


ZCore13

Thanks for the report ZCore, was the loss due to misplaying your hands, skill in setting the hands wisely, or just not catching cards?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Thanks for the report ZCore, was the loss due to misplaying your hands, skill in setting the hands wisely, or just not catching cards?

A little bit was not catching cards, but that's just poker in general. I believe I was playing to safe. I was really trying not to foul instead of trying to make strong hands with Royalties. The lesson I learned is that Royalty hands happen more than I thought they would and to be more aggressive in trying to get them. At some point you have to give up on them, but I think I'll play more aggressive at the beginning.


ZCore13

Quote: tringlomane

Kudos to you Zcore for spreading the game beyond Nevada! If it bothered to become legal in Missouri id try it, but that's unlikely to happen I think.

Thanks. It's a very interesting game. A lot of subtle strategy. Very fun. And at a couple dollars per point very affordable. $5 per point can get a little costly on a bad hand or foul.


ZCore13