Under which circumstances is a player considered an advantage player?
May 2nd, 2012 at 3:18:28 AM
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Hi,
I am just getting into online gambling. So far I have played many games in the fun mode and made myself familiar with the odds, strategies and the like (that excludes betting systems). I am confident that it is indeed possible to win around 100 on a rather consistent basis without selling your grandmother's teeth - given that the Bankroll carries some weight and one gambles with strict self-control. By self-control I mean to resist the urge to regain any losses on the spot and to also appreciate smaller winnings and not go berserk because some intuition is whispering: "You are on a winning streak . go for the Jackpot .... Jackpot! ...... JACKPOT!!!!!" ^^
But I wonder about the following: Should I do well and generate regular wins on an overall consistent basis, would some greedy online-casinos regard that as advantage play? I ask because I am aware of the fact that the online-casino landscape is pretty wild west. If they screw you, there isn't too much that you can do about it. Even though I am confident that I have spotted some casinos so far, which come across really well regarded (like Bodog, Casino Euro, Euro Grand).
Have any of you guys made experiences with online casinos, that kicked you out just because you did a little too well in their eyes? And when does the term advantage player apply?
Thanks for your time.
I am just getting into online gambling. So far I have played many games in the fun mode and made myself familiar with the odds, strategies and the like (that excludes betting systems). I am confident that it is indeed possible to win around 100 on a rather consistent basis without selling your grandmother's teeth - given that the Bankroll carries some weight and one gambles with strict self-control. By self-control I mean to resist the urge to regain any losses on the spot and to also appreciate smaller winnings and not go berserk because some intuition is whispering: "You are on a winning streak . go for the Jackpot .... Jackpot! ...... JACKPOT!!!!!" ^^
But I wonder about the following: Should I do well and generate regular wins on an overall consistent basis, would some greedy online-casinos regard that as advantage play? I ask because I am aware of the fact that the online-casino landscape is pretty wild west. If they screw you, there isn't too much that you can do about it. Even though I am confident that I have spotted some casinos so far, which come across really well regarded (like Bodog, Casino Euro, Euro Grand).
Have any of you guys made experiences with online casinos, that kicked you out just because you did a little too well in their eyes? And when does the term advantage player apply?
Thanks for your time.
May 2nd, 2012 at 3:29:16 AM
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The phrase seems to apply to drunks who think they have some advantage over a negative expectation game or to ordinary players who just happen to come out on the sunny side of Lady Variance and are declared to be advantage players by dishonest casinos who are willing to collect losing bets but not pay off winning bets.
May 2nd, 2012 at 4:28:42 AM
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YOU may think you are an AP, but 'using the weightof a bankroll' does not make you one, trust us... Unless you are playing a positive expectation game, or are just chasing the short term sign up bonuses , you are not playing with an advantage. (unless you are possibly playing poker against other humans, not the casino)
anyway, the Wiz endorses Bovada, which used to be Bodog, and will assist you if you have a legitimate beef with them. Someone called 'BodogBecky' also periodically addresses concerns on this forum.
Good luck
anyway, the Wiz endorses Bovada, which used to be Bodog, and will assist you if you have a legitimate beef with them. Someone called 'BodogBecky' also periodically addresses concerns on this forum.
Good luck
May 2nd, 2012 at 5:10:28 AM
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Well - I am from Germany and I still can visit Bodog. But as I learned here in the meantime there is some shitstorm going on with Bodog in the US, is that right? So would it be better to deposit no money there for the time being?
May 2nd, 2012 at 5:51:00 AM
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I'm no expert, as I trust no online casinos. The Wiz still vouches for the safety and security of Bovada, which is the site US users apparently use. The users from this forum, as I stated earlier, get prompt resolution to any questions or disputes from 'bodogbecky'. You can private message her with any questions.
May 2nd, 2012 at 6:41:18 AM
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there is another thread reporting a problem casino, click here.
you may be interested in this page from wizardofodds.com about online gambling.
or this page about blacklisted casinos.
you may be interested in this page from wizardofodds.com about online gambling.
or this page about blacklisted casinos.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
May 23rd, 2012 at 4:40:22 PM
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The only game I have played online is Blackjack at Bovada. I have played many thousands of hands both in practice and live mode on that site. Believe me when I tell you, Bovada cheats. There is no doubt. Practice mode is fine, but they do things in live mode to be sure you do not win consistently. First of all, if you get too much ahead, they dial up the house vigorish. If you are managing your money well enough to play around this, they then start dialing up the vig when you are in catch-up mode. "Random" goes berserk when you step up your unit bets. The house can win ~80% of the hands until you either quit or go broke. And it remembers you. Wait a while, log back on, play a few hands. The first 10-20 hands will seem normal, then the impossible starts happening again. Here is an example of when they are really ticked at you....
House wins 9 hands. You win 1. House wins 4 hands, you win 1. House wins 7 hands. You win 1. House gets 5 BJs in a row. You get none except for pushes. You get 20. House gets 21. You get 21. House gets 21. You win 2 hands. House wins 8. House wins ~90% of all splits and double downs. And so on until you go broke or throw in the towel.
I have played BJ in real casinos almost all my adult life. I play perfect basic strategy. I know normal card distribution from manipulation. Bovada cheats. They do it with their software. Maybe all online casinos do, but my only experience is with Bovada.
Wiz, why don't you play BJ over there with your own money. Then decide if they are a worthy advertiser.
House wins 9 hands. You win 1. House wins 4 hands, you win 1. House wins 7 hands. You win 1. House gets 5 BJs in a row. You get none except for pushes. You get 20. House gets 21. You get 21. House gets 21. You win 2 hands. House wins 8. House wins ~90% of all splits and double downs. And so on until you go broke or throw in the towel.
I have played BJ in real casinos almost all my adult life. I play perfect basic strategy. I know normal card distribution from manipulation. Bovada cheats. They do it with their software. Maybe all online casinos do, but my only experience is with Bovada.
Wiz, why don't you play BJ over there with your own money. Then decide if they are a worthy advertiser.
May 24th, 2012 at 11:52:30 AM
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Quote: hitmeunfounded accusations
The folks here (especially the Wiz) aren't going to take you seriously unless you have some hard data to back up your accusations. Without meticulously recorded, accurate data, it's impossible to separate accusations like this from selective memory at work.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
May 24th, 2012 at 12:14:53 PM
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I've had sessions like that too.
Except my sessions were in real casinos....
Except my sessions were in real casinos....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 24th, 2012 at 12:40:42 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI've had sessions like that too. Except my sessions were in real casinos....
Ah... But everyone knows that real casinos are rigged too! So starts the conspiracy theory.
Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.
May 24th, 2012 at 4:40:07 PM
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Whenever they darn well choose to use it. And they can choose to apply it whether their "play mode" is set differently than their "real money mode" or not. As you said, its a bit of "The Wild West" out there in Cyberspace where false fronts and rubber stamp regulators are so common.Quote: JugglerAnd when does the term advantage player apply?
May 24th, 2012 at 5:17:20 PM
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On-line gaming is a negative bankroll expectation, no matter what game one chooses.
Therefore I agree with FleaStiff, whenever the House says you are.
If your not having bad luck, you're an AP. Good luck is considered an Advantage!
Ever wonder why an on-line craps table is a 1 on 1 game???
Therefore I agree with FleaStiff, whenever the House says you are.
If your not having bad luck, you're an AP. Good luck is considered an Advantage!
Ever wonder why an on-line craps table is a 1 on 1 game???
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
June 1st, 2012 at 2:30:29 PM
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I do keep records. Most of my sessions I have recorded every hand--won, lose, double-down, blackjack. That's how I know I am not playing against an honest house. I can tell almost at once when they dial up the distribution. It isn't just the poor player outcome, there is also an impossible pattern of occurrences that repeat--for instance, all my 20s are pushes when they have dialed up. All of them. All. I get an inordinate number of 14's--like every 5th hand. Dealer gets an inordinate number of naturals. It is nothing for dealer to get 3 BJ's in a row--even 4. I get none. That's how it goes when they are trying to show you the door. I am guessing that Bovada (and probably the other online casinos also) does not tolerate winners. I was $3,000 ahead when they started doing this. I think they also got p*ssed when I withdrew half of it (which I have not yet received.)
June 1st, 2012 at 2:39:37 PM
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An Advantage player is a player who has discovered a game where he has ridiculous luck in and makes consistent withdrawals from many casinos. AP Players exist in every single Casino game....
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
June 1st, 2012 at 3:03:39 PM
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LOL @ hitme. Wizard is not going to promote a casino that uses rigged software. He has dedicated his career to making sure casinos don't screw people, and has called out many online ones. He helped bust out Casino Bar for their cheating BJ software, and has helped on others too. Bodog uses a proprietary RTG software version. Nobody has ever found anything wrong with it.
You even admit you were up at some point $3000. You are saying these casinos you claim are rigged are going to let you get up $3000 before flicking the doom switch? It is intentional for you to take them for many people's monthly salary before they "steal" your deposit?
I would share my true unedited opinion, but I don't think what I am thinking is allowed in this forum.
You even admit you were up at some point $3000. You are saying these casinos you claim are rigged are going to let you get up $3000 before flicking the doom switch? It is intentional for you to take them for many people's monthly salary before they "steal" your deposit?
I would share my true unedited opinion, but I don't think what I am thinking is allowed in this forum.
June 1st, 2012 at 4:03:24 PM
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Seriously... when there's no third base to blame, you gotta find someone to blame.
100% risk of ruin
June 2nd, 2012 at 5:07:03 AM
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One issue I have had with on-line gaming is the pervasive use of an "Affiliate Program" where people/entities get paid for big-fish play, based usually on a % of losses, with a few notable exceptions.
IMHO, the affiliate program is an unaffordable practice from Player One. The exchange of banners should be without cost: the trademark display in exchange for the pixels*frames used.
IMHO, the affiliate program is an unaffordable practice from Player One. The exchange of banners should be without cost: the trademark display in exchange for the pixels*frames used.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
June 2nd, 2012 at 5:37:32 AM
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Quote: hitmeHouse gets 5 BJs in a row. You get none except for pushes. You get 20. House gets 21. You get 21. House gets 21.
If a casino wanted to cheat you, why do it so blatantly?
You are thinking of it as if the 20 was dealt to you fairly, and then the cheating program kicked in to compensate. But the program had the choice all along in dealing you that 20, it could have dealt you 14 in the first place.
I know what I would do if I wanted to cheat you. You'd get dealt a fair proportion of starting hands, but, when it's time to lose, only improve them to 17-19 and the dealer would keep beating you by 1 or 2 points. Most of your winning hands would be real great, 20, 21. And your wins-losses would go as "win-lose-lose-win-lose", with only short losing streaks, but even shorter winning ones.
There are cheating operators out there and they are never this obvious.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
June 2nd, 2012 at 11:17:14 PM
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P90, I can beat the pattern you just mentioned all day long. And I can win all day long in practice mode. The only way I lose is when the house wins an unlikely % of the hands for a long period of time. There is no money management system that can overcome that. When Bovada turns on the heat, they get win sequences of 12, 5, 17, 9, 10 and so on with only a few single or double player wins in between. The way they try to make up for the impossible % they are winning is to only let me win when I drop down to a $1 of $2 bet. As soon as I raise my unit bet, they start winning again instantly. I think you do not believe me when I say that I have played many, many thousands of hands against Bovada and, yes, I have kept records. So who would I take these records to? I would like someone like the Wiz to monitor my play. Yes, the unlikely patterns are blatant.
June 3rd, 2012 at 6:49:44 AM
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post your records right here,
they will be analyzed by at least 2 or 3 people.
they will be analyzed by at least 2 or 3 people.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
June 3rd, 2012 at 8:15:04 AM
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Quote: hitmeP90, I can beat the pattern you just mentioned all day long. And I can win all day long in practice mode.
I don't think you understand.
You are under the impression that you can beat a cheating program. You can't.
It doesn't matter if you hit, stand, or whatever - if it's already decided that you lose, you'll bust if you hit a stiff, get beaten if you stand.
A cheating program doesn't need dealer blackjacks to beat you, either.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
June 5th, 2012 at 7:47:34 PM
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This is not one of the worst sessions but one of the most recent--this morning. This evening I had a worse one, but I didn't keep records.
X= Dealer wins
1 = Player wins
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X= Dealer wins
1 = Player wins
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June 6th, 2012 at 2:27:02 AM
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All those hands and no pushes?
June 6th, 2012 at 8:05:17 AM
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I posted a session here last night, but it didn't copy. Maybe it was too long...?
I figured out why all the 14s on first 2 cards to player. Player would be surrendering on many of the hard breaking hands--15 or 16--but basic strategy never calls for surrender on 14. Duh!
I figured out why all the 14s on first 2 cards to player. Player would be surrendering on many of the hard breaking hands--15 or 16--but basic strategy never calls for surrender on 14. Duh!
June 6th, 2012 at 8:11:28 AM
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Oh, I see it did copy after all. I didn't record the pushes, but it would be interesting to note all the blackjack pushes and pushes on 20 and 21.
Here's a session I had this morning...
Back and forth for the first ~10 hands, and then....
XXXXXXXXXXXX
1
XXXXXXXXX
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How many times have you had a run of cards like that in a real casino?
Here's a session I had this morning...
Back and forth for the first ~10 hands, and then....
XXXXXXXXXXXX
1
XXXXXXXXX
1
XXXXX
11
XXXXXXXX
How many times have you had a run of cards like that in a real casino?
June 6th, 2012 at 8:47:17 AM
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Well, I had $200 left in my account so thought I would go back in and just bet $1/hand. Here's the pattern I got from the first deal...
XXXXX
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<------and don't let the door bump your ass on the way out.
I was $1000 ahead almost to the dollar when the kill program hit last night. I get some rough runs but fairly normal distribution until I get substantially ahead. I can tell when The Program hits--all the 14s. Sometimes they just dial it up a bit. If that doesn't work, they hit the kill switch, and the outcome is as above. Yes, it is that blatant. So what do they care if it is blatant? Who do I tell--and how can I prove it? Wiz doesn't care--they are his advertiser.
XXXXX
11
XXXXX
1
XXXXXXXXX
<------and don't let the door bump your ass on the way out.
I was $1000 ahead almost to the dollar when the kill program hit last night. I get some rough runs but fairly normal distribution until I get substantially ahead. I can tell when The Program hits--all the 14s. Sometimes they just dial it up a bit. If that doesn't work, they hit the kill switch, and the outcome is as above. Yes, it is that blatant. So what do they care if it is blatant? Who do I tell--and how can I prove it? Wiz doesn't care--they are his advertiser.
June 10th, 2012 at 11:55:59 PM
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Here is Blackjack Software to improve performance..Good luck!
June 11th, 2012 at 4:12:46 AM
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Quote: hitmeWell, I had $200 left in my account so thought I would go back in and just bet $1/hand. Here's the pattern I got from the first deal...
XXXXX
11
XXXXX
1
XXXXXXXXX
<------and don't let the door bump your ass on the way out.
I was $1000 ahead almost to the dollar when the kill program hit last night. I get some rough runs but fairly normal distribution until I get substantially ahead. I can tell when The Program hits--all the 14s. Sometimes they just dial it up a bit. If that doesn't work, they hit the kill switch, and the outcome is as above. Yes, it is that blatant. So what do they care if it is blatant? Who do I tell--and how can I prove it? Wiz doesn't care--they are his advertiser.
As of now you are one anonymous guy posting a bunch of x's and 1's. I believe someone once filmed their screen and had it available for us to view. Just to ponder, you were ahead when Bovada allegedly turned on the 'kill switch', correct? Why did they ever let you get ahead? Why didn't they slowly have you lose, so that you would more likely think it was due to bad luck, and thus be more likely to return and keep losing? For that matter, why wouldn't they just let the natural house advantage play out and have you slowly lose so that you would be a loyal customer? However, there was an online casino that was exposed here, that was using faulty software, as you are suggesting Bovada is. So film a session, and let us see......
June 12th, 2012 at 8:10:49 PM
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I don't think they were paying any attention when I got $3k ahead. I think what got their attention is when I withdrew half of it. That's when the weird stuff started happening. At first it was a run of really bad outcomes, but I was still able to win, albeit slowly. I suspected that they had changed the software on me because of the unusual number of 14s and pushes on 20. Then when I got substantially ahead again, they turned on the Kill Program. I have now learned to hold out (bet low, flat) until the Kill Program runs out--which it does. I think even their trumped up system will only allow the dealer to win ~80% of the hands for so long. Then the cards start running very well for the player for a while, and then they return to normal. Eventually the Kill Program hits again, but it has gotten pretty obvious when it hits. I think the post-kill run of good hands for the player is the system's attempt to change the % back toward normal. The object is to not go broke while the Kill Program is running. It doesn't help to quit a while and come back. It is waiting for me whenever I come back. I have to ensure it till it runs its course. This has become a real challenge for me to try to learn how to get around the cheating software. If I were smart, I would quit playing with fire, wouldn't I?
I had not thought to video the screen while I'm playing. Seems like a lot of trouble just to convince some of you that a casino is cheating. For now it will have to suffice that I know it is. If there is anyone here who plays this casino and who wins consistently, I would like to hear from you.
I had not thought to video the screen while I'm playing. Seems like a lot of trouble just to convince some of you that a casino is cheating. For now it will have to suffice that I know it is. If there is anyone here who plays this casino and who wins consistently, I would like to hear from you.
June 12th, 2012 at 8:16:56 PM
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BTW: I got my check from them today for the $1500 I withdrew. It took 18 business days, but that was a relief.
Do y'all know that if you take a withdrawal more than once per calendar month, they charge you $50 per? And this is not to mention the 4.9% they charge you for making a deposit!!
Do y'all know that if you take a withdrawal more than once per calendar month, they charge you $50 per? And this is not to mention the 4.9% they charge you for making a deposit!!
June 12th, 2012 at 8:27:58 PM
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You got $3000 ahead, which was good luck.
Then you lost $1500 of that money, which must be the casino cheating?
Move along, nothing to see here.
Then you lost $1500 of that money, which must be the casino cheating?
Move along, nothing to see here.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
June 22nd, 2012 at 6:57:49 AM
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dwheatley, apparently you haven't read the thread. I only joined this forum to pass on what I think is important information. Bovada cheats. I cannot tell you how many how many hands, how many casinos I have played over the years. Let's just say I am not a casual player. Bovada is the only casino I have ever played that I felt was cheating. There is no doubt in my mind.
BTW: I said that I had received my withdrawal--I was wrong. The payment I received was from someone else. Bovada has not paid me. I requested the withdrawal on May 18. When I called to ask about it on June 18, I was told they were running behind, and they did not know when they would pay me! Folks, do not play this casino.
I will return here and let you know if/when I get paid.
BTW: I said that I had received my withdrawal--I was wrong. The payment I received was from someone else. Bovada has not paid me. I requested the withdrawal on May 18. When I called to ask about it on June 18, I was told they were running behind, and they did not know when they would pay me! Folks, do not play this casino.
I will return here and let you know if/when I get paid.
June 22nd, 2012 at 7:47:32 AM
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" Do y'all know that if you take a withdrawal more than once per calendar month, they charge you $50 per? And this is not to mention the 4.9% they charge you for making a deposit!! "
Once again re-enforcing all on-line casino's philosophy about players :
" They are sheep, born to be sheared "
Once again re-enforcing all on-line casino's philosophy about players :
" They are sheep, born to be sheared "
July 4th, 2012 at 10:38:48 PM
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I requested the withdrawal on May 14. It was approved (whatever the heck that means) on May 15. I received my check July 3. That is 7 weeks and one day in process. I was told it would take 20 business days. I haven't deposited the check yet, but it looks OK.
July 5th, 2012 at 12:22:43 AM
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Quote: hitmeI only joined this forum to pass on what I think is important information. Bovada cheats. I cannot tell you how many how many hands, how many casinos I have played over the years. Let's just say I am not a casual player. Bovada is the only casino I have ever played that I felt was cheating.
I had the same thoughts about other casinos. I know better than to really believe that, though.
If you're ahead by more than an insubstantial amount, it's very unlikely that you've been cheated. The casino doesn't accuse you of cheating, what with pulling all these great hands in a row, does it?
Although delays for paying such a modest sum as $1,500 are bad, but you're in US, aren't you - so it's not even fully within the legal framework.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
July 6th, 2012 at 10:36:11 AM
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I do computer programming for a living and I have to say my opinion is: you would have to be a fool to play with real money in a virtual world which has no means of enforcement or proof of consistency. Players have no reliable way to settle disputes against virtual casinos, so you really think you can just trust to their "good will, honesty, and humanity"? Oh, Guinevere!! I can hear the laughter of the immortal P.T. Barnum now. I strongly advise everyone not to play with real money in online casinos. It is just an open invitation for a fleecing imho.
