Who's this guy Tony?
Quote: clarkacalWizard, i heard it through the grapevine 5dimes secured your services in auditing their casino software again. Probably due to all the negative publicity they have received lately. I'm curious, what's with this guy Tony?
No, I don't audit them, and have no plans to. As I recall, I did a one-time audit several years ago. Tony is the manager there.
Quote: clarkacalYou may want to check into this then. I have been told they are now advertising that "this time" their casino has been audited by xtech and somebody else (RTP certified or something like that?), hinting that a new audit has been completed.
Where does it say WOO has done a new audit? I read in one of the many scam threads about them that WOO audited them many years ago but nothing I have seen or heard indicates that they are claiming he's done anything new.
In the several places where it mentions the audit, it doesn't give the date it was done. It could have been last month or 10 years ago.
Quote: EvenBobOn the 5 Dimes site it says: “Overall, for the most recent data submitted, I can say that XTECH is offering fair games of chance, and the outcomes fall within statistical expectations.” Michael Shackleford.
In the several places where it mentions the audit, it doesn't give the date it was done. It could have been last month or 10 years ago.
Looking on the site, on the page http://www.5dimes.com/independent.html it clearly states the audit was done May 25, 2003.
Quote: EvenBobOn the 5 Dimes site it says: “Overall, for the most recent data submitted, I can say that XTECH is offering fair games of chance, and the outcomes fall within statistical expectations.” Michael Shackleford.
In the several places where it mentions the audit, it doesn't give the date it was done. It could have been last month or 10 years ago.
I found the audit here. Yes, that is the one I did, which they indicate was done in 2003. They are allowed to post that. For what it is worth, I think audits should be done more frequently than every eight years.
Quote: WizardI found the audit here. Yes, that is the one I did, which they indicate was done in 2003. They are allowed to post that. For what it is worth, I think audits should be done more frequently than every eight years.
If they did them more frequently then they couldn't get away with saying they were unaware of a 390% game even though the website paytable matched the game paytable, eliminating any chance of someone simply entering the paytable wrong.
Quote: JimMorrisonLooking on the site, on the page http://www.5dimes.com/independent.html it clearly states the audit was done May 25, 2003.
Obviously the date wasn't in the two quotes I found. You shouldn't have to hunt for it.
Quote: EvenBobObviously the date wasn't in the two quotes I found. You shouldn't have to hunt for it.
Where did you find the quotes?
Still, this is an illustrated example of why I don't do public audits anymore.
Quote: Wizard
Still, this is an illustrated example of why I don't do public audits anymore.
This is interesting. This must be a 5 Dimes casino:
islandcasino
This one states: "Michael is in fact the official "auditor" for English Harbour" and when you click the link, another guy thats not you comes up. Oops. (scroll 3/4 way down)
http://online_casino_news.hundredpercentgambling.com/2006/05/english-harbour-casino-cheating-at.htm
For the record, I don't believe 5dimes software is cheating or nonrandom. I do believe that I and maybe other players on the site were being freerolled by the management in certain games, whether it was intentional or the result of decisions that were made against some winning players.
Quote: EvenBobThis is interesting. This must be a 5 Dimes casino:
islandcasino
This one states: "Michael is in fact the official "auditor" for English Harbour" and when you click the link, another guy thats not you comes up. Oops. (scroll 3/4 way down)
http://online_casino_news.hundredpercentgambling.com/2006/05/english-harbour-casino-cheating-at.htm
English Harbour has nothing to do with 5 Dimes to the best of my knowledge. They were busted years ago for scamming the doubling at video poker. WOO was instrumental in that happening.
Quote: clarkacalYes, Island casino is a part of the 5dimes group.
For the record, I don't believe 5dimes software is cheating or nonrandom. I do believe that I and maybe other players on the site were being freerolled by the management in certain games, whether it was intentional or the result of decisions that were made against some winning players.
5 Dimes is part of English Harbour and Odds On?? If true this is news to me. I've never heard of Island Casino but the quote Bob used refers to English Harbour which was a good casino 6-7 years ago then went in the shitter.
It's obvious that too many idiots who don't believe online casinos are fair, were calling you and you got tired of it.
It doesn't hurt your reputation. If anything, it makes 5 Dimes look bad. They should have simply removed both the invitation to contact you and the contact methods, and left it at that.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIt's obvious that too many idiots who don't believe online casinos are fair, were calling you and you got tired of it.
It was mostly that spambots picked up the Email address, but also the reason you said.
Quote: JimMorrison5 Dimes is part of English Harbour and Odds On?? If true this is news to me. I've never heard of Island Casino but the quote Bob used refers to English Harbour which was a good casino 6-7 years ago then went in the shitter.
I hadn't ever heard of English Harbour either, I was just going by Evenbob's post.
Island Casino and Sportbet always have the exact same odds as 5dimes, and you cannot have accounts with either if you have a 5dimes acct. On top of that, when you enter a live chat with management you have to check the box for which book you are a member, 5dimes, Island, or Sportbet. All this strongly suggests they are all part of the same ownership.
Quote: clarkacalIsland Casino and Sportbet always have the exact same odds as 5dimes, and you cannot have accounts with either if you have a 5dimes acct. On top of that, when you enter a live chat with management you have to check the box for which book you are a member, 5dimes, Island, or Sportbet. All this strongly suggests they are all part of the same ownership.
They are, since WAY back when they used Unified Gaming software. All three of these casinos we among the first I ever played at, when they didn't mind multiple accounts. At that time the player edge in their BJ game was 0.53%.
Vietbet
In the drop down menu choose Millionaire Casino and you'll see it has an endorsement from the Wiz.
Millionaire
In this one the Wiz is called a 'math head' and 'he also acts as an independent auditor to OddsOn (Vegas Technology) casino software licencees.'
Casionmeister
Quote: heatherThis Eliot Jacobson guy seems really really dodgy, at least judging by his website. Nowhere does it say what is degree is in, or where he obtained it from. Their Associates page doesn't have a bio for him, although Michael is listed as though he were in Jacobson's employ -- is he? If so, who is this Jacobson guy, what's his degree in, and where did he obtain it from? Has he ever been published? (Google Scholar doesn't seem to know him, unless he's a microbiologist who normally abbreviates his first name.) You can't go around flashing the letters "Ph.D." and then not say what significance they're supposed to have. That just invites suspicion.
You can see from the Jacobson Gaming web site that his Ph.D. is mathematics from the University of Arizona. He is the published author of The Blackjack Zone and Contemporary Casino Table Game Design. Eliot is one of the brightest minds in gaming analysis. One of his areas of emphasis is the auditing of Internet casinos.
You can see on his associates page that I'm not an employee of his: Please note, the individuals listed below are independent contractors and are not employees of Jacobson Gaming, LLC.
Eliot received his Ph. D. in Mathematics from the U of Arizona in '83, and was a mathematics professor for 15 years at Ohio University.
The Associates page at his site simply lists fellow mathematicians he has worked with, whom he considers reliable, and with whom he shares overflow work and referals, etc.
Quote: heatherThis Eliot Jacobson guy seems really really dodgy, at least judging by his website. Nowhere does it say what is degree is in, or where he obtained it from. Their Associates page doesn't have a bio for him, although Michael is listed as though he were in Jacobson's employ -- is he? If so, who is this Jacobson guy, what's his degree in, and where did he obtain it from? Has he ever been published? (Google Scholar doesn't seem to know him, unless he's a microbiologist who normally abbreviates his first name.) You can't go around flashing the letters "Ph.D." and then not say what significance they're supposed to have. That just invites suspicion.
My bio is on my website. Go to the FAQ page, it is the very last link at the bottom.
Bio of Eliot Jacobson
I am listed many times in google scholar, you have to spell my name correctly and put quotes around it in the search. A quick glance over the references and articles listed in this search, I believe they are all based on my work and no other "Eliot Jacobson."
"Eliot Jacobson" on Google Scholar
I stopped doing research in pure mathematics about 10 years ago and retired from academia in March, 2009.
Quote: heatherThanks greatly, and my deepest apologies for being immediately suspicious. I'm getting so used to being lied to that I can't tell what's real anymore!
In the gaming math industry? Who or what has caused you to get used to being lied to? I know a *lot* of people in the gaming industry, and while there are certainly vendors that have less than savory reputations, I can't think of a single gaming mathematician who I'd put in that bucket. It's not really possible for a gaming mathematician to intentionally lie about the house edge and get away with it. The gaming floor is the ultimate crucible.
Quote: MathExtremistThe gaming floor is the ultimate crucible.
Great line. Don't you wish you could drop that into a casual conversation without sounding pompous. It looks great written down, though. I think I'm going to steal it, just to make people look up the word 'crucible'..
Quote: MathExtremistIn the gaming math industry? Who or what has caused you to get used to being lied to? I know a *lot* of people in the gaming industry, and while there are certainly vendors that have less than savory reputations, I can't think of a single gaming mathematician who I'd put in that bucket. It's not really possible for a gaming mathematician to intentionally lie about the house edge and get away with it. The gaming floor is the ultimate crucible.
No, not in gaming math, in the online casino business. Like a month or so back, when I first tried English Harbour, I didn't understand the way that they were expressing their baccarat payouts. It looked like I was getting paid twice my bet (plus my original stake back) because they included the stake in the amount of money that it said you "won", which the casinos that I was used to didn't do. (I actually later made a little chart for myself showing which casino expresses their payout which way.)
Anyway, this really confused me, as I thought I was getting paid 2 for 1 on baccarat wins and couldn't figure out how the casino could make any money with such an arrangement. So I pulled up English Harbour live chat, and had the following exchange with English Harbour support:
Me: Hi, I just noticed that your baccarat game is paying out $390 for wins on $200 bets on the bank, instead of the usual $190. Am I missing something? Are you really paying out 2:1 in baccarat? Is this some kind of promotion?
Her: That's how it's always been.
Her: For more information
Her: For more information, please see
About half an hour later, their chat window declared itself to have disconnected, and closed. I get that she didn't exactly lie to me, but I was clearly misunderstanding their payouts, and she didn't even try to help remedy the confusion.
Then there are online casinos that I really liked, or wanted to like, but found out from reading around are actually pretty shady operations. I think that I might tend towards being overly trusting in real life, but I'm aware of this, so I overcompensate online.
I've also encountered online casino operations that have created phony gaming regulation entities to certify themselves, exactly like diploma mills that create phony accreditation boards to accredit themselves. This is very very shady behaviour even if it's not exactly lying (although it could be, depending on the language used by the casino to describe the "regulator" and the "regulator" to describe itself).
And, again, my apologies for misreading the Jacobson site. I swear I never saw the words "University of Arizona" anywhere, and I *looked*. Thanks again.
Speaking of stealing great lines LOL check out the last 3 words of this posting
The other was a different kind of gumshoe: Robert Hannum, a professor at the University of Denver. Although his doctoral work leaned heavily toward the theoretical side of statistics, Hannum now carries the title "professor of risk analysis and gaming" — a tribute to his many years studying the odd collision of mathematics, marketing and fantasy that fuels the commercial gambling industry. Hannum has been the official mathematician in residence for the MGM Grand and the Aria Resort & Casino; other casino operators call on him to run the numbers on tricky new games or review the math behind special betting promotions that, despite the best of intentions, might actually end up costing their casino some money. He is their go-to guy, the probability king, the wizard of odds.
the Professor lists several internet sites, include Michael and a link to WOO
As for baccarat, you *were* getting paid 2 for 1. 2 for 1 is even money, equivalent to "1 to 1". Note the difference between "to 1" and "for 1" in the payout. You put in 200, you got back a total of 390 "for your 200", which is a win of 190 "to your 200" (200 - 5% commission). That's a common misunderstanding. I bet you won't make it again, though. :)
Quote: heatherNo, not in gaming math, in the online casino business. Like a month or so back, when I first tried English Harbour, I didn't understand the way that they were expressing their baccarat payouts. It looked like I was getting paid twice my bet (plus my original stake back) because they included the stake in the amount of money that it said you "won", which the casinos that I was used to didn't do. (I actually later made a little chart for myself showing which casino expresses their payout which way.)
Anyway, this really confused me, as I thought I was getting paid 2 for 1 on baccarat wins and couldn't figure out how the casino could make any money with such an arrangement. So I pulled up English Harbour live chat, and had the following exchange with English Harbour support:
Me: Hi, I just noticed that your baccarat game is paying out $390 for wins on $200 bets on the bank, instead of the usual $190. Am I missing something? Are you really paying out 2:1 in baccarat? Is this some kind of promotion?
Her: That's how it's always been.
Her: For more information
Her: For more information, please see
About half an hour later, their chat window declared itself to have disconnected, and closed. I get that she didn't exactly lie to me, but I was clearly misunderstanding their payouts, and she didn't even try to help remedy the confusion.
Then there are online casinos that I really liked, or wanted to like, but found out from reading around are actually pretty shady operations. I think that I might tend towards being overly trusting in real life, but I'm aware of this, so I overcompensate online.
I've also encountered online casino operations that have created phony gaming regulation entities to certify themselves, exactly like diploma mills that create phony accreditation boards to accredit themselves. This is very very shady behaviour even if it's not exactly lying (although it could be, depending on the language used by the casino to describe the "regulator" and the "regulator" to describe itself).
And, again, my apologies for misreading the Jacobson site. I swear I never saw the words "University of Arizona" anywhere, and I *looked*. Thanks again.
Quote: RussHaleyYou happen to be correct, Heather. Eliot Jacobson has a long history and is very dodgy. Why was my post in this thread removed?
I'd guess it's probably because insults are not allowed?
