Online Poker - Will Players Get their Money Back?
Personally, I have several thousand dollars sitting on PokerStars and Full Tilt. To be honest, I have not played on them since early 2010, and just kind of had the money sitting there in the event I wanted to goof around and play in a couple of tournaments or something. If the money is lost forever, I will be sad, but not heartbroken by it. However, I do know people who have tens of thousands on their online accounts and who count on online-poker for a substantial amount of their income. Not only will they have lost the ability to earn money, but their entire bankroll is currently frozen and they can't withdraw it to do something else.
Will players get their money back? If so, when?
Quote: gamblerWill players get their money back? If so, when?
Players might get a portion back after the governmnet is done shaking the money tree. Kind of sickening, actually. But this is what happens when you have a Federal Governmnet addicted to spending but is so broke it cannot.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnother thing, why would they legalize and tax it and only get a portion of it when they can keep online gambling illegal and just confiscate ALL your money for breaking the law.
Because 20% of 2 billion is more than 100% of 200 million. Legality will increase play.
Quote: AZDuffmanBecause 20% of 2 billion is more than 100% of 200 million.
20% of 2 billion plus 100% of 200 million is even more. Seize the 200 million associated with the illegal activity and then legalize and tax online gambling in the future. In drug raids they seize the drugs and the money. I don't see this as any different.
Do you think that if you were at a dogfight that got raided, the cops would have the players line up to get refunds on their bets? Or do you think you'll be lucky just not to be hauled off to jail for participating in an illegal activity?
Quote: JIMMYFOCKERChances are favorable that players will get their money.
I don't think so. We here do not think it is so bad to be gambling on line, as this is a gambling forum. However, imagine if the government shut down an illegal drug dealing web site, and people were asking if they will get their money back? If you give your money to a criminal entity, and, really, that is what they are once they knowingly accept US citizens as clients, and set up sham systems to get US citizens money, you can't possibly expect to have any legal recourse to get your funds. I agree with the others who expect the final result of this mess is that eventually internet gambling will be legal, just with a cut going to the feds. I am not aware of the nationalities of the owners of these web sites, but if they are American citizens, I would expect some of them to go to jail.
Really?
You are participating in a criminal enterprise. The money in your account is profit from criminal activity, which is subject to seizure and forfeit.
I see gambling raids all the time on local news. I see them hauling out slot machines and putting them in trucks. I don't see people standing around going "wait, I haven't cashed out my credits yet!".
Quote: kpYou go to a crack house for a dime bag. You give the dude your money and he goes into the back to get your drugs. The police raid the crack house. You explain to the officer that you're just a customer and the dude has your money and you never got your drugs. The officer gets the money back from the dude and gives it to you saying "have a nice day, sir" and sends you on your merry way.
Really?
You are participating in a criminal enterprise. The money in your account is profit from criminal activity, which is subject to seizure and forfeit.
I see gambling raids all the time on local news. I see them hauling out slot machines and putting them in trucks. I don't see people standing around going "wait, I haven't cashed out my credits yet!".
The law didn't make it illegal for the individual to gamble. Since they were not doing anything illegal they should get their money back. The sites may or may not have been doing anything illegal since they aren't based in US territory (the servers are on indian land). The law is only really clear about those that were processing the money in and out of the sites. It is the money processing that was targeted by the federal law since it was the easiest thing to control.
Quote: kenarmanIt is the money processing that was targeted by the federal law since it was the easiest thing to control.
That may give the players a better chance, then. But if the case comes down to money laundering, then are the customers who are laundering money as guilty as the company cleaning their money?
It's all very gray and will take a long time to sort it all out.
Quote: SOOPOOI agree with the others who expect the final result of this mess is that eventually internet gambling will be legal, just with a cut going to the feds.
It's possible, but very optimistic. Consider a more likely scenario: net gambling becomes federal-legal and state-illegal, or vice versa. That creates a permanent legal gray zone where gambling happens and gets taxed, under the permissive law, but when you need meat and hide rather than wool, you use the restrictive law to seize the assets. Any optimized farm has to balance its wool or milk production with meat and leather output.
Quote: JimMorrisonI'd book action with anyone who thinks Americans will not get there money back.
How much can I bet?
Quote: WizardHow much can I bet?
Really? You don't think Americans will get paid? That surprises me. I'd bet a decent amount but we have to agree on a timeline, I think it will probably happen within a year but if they fight it out in court it could be 2-3 years. I guess for a prop bet I think it would be fair to say that Americans will have their money back within a year after the case is settled. DOJ has moved to freeze the escrow accounts in the UK, Isle of Man and Ireland that deposits are kept in, for all we know they've been frozen already. I don't see them confiscating that money and fucking over a few million Americans, they'd have to answer to Congress on that.
Quote: JimMorrisonReally? You don't think Americans will get paid?
They will eventually.
Quote: EvenBobI think it will be years before they do, if they do, and it will be doled out by the gov't and taxed as income. Here's what happened. The DOJ has been investigating this for years and years. All the Americans playing thumbed their noses at the law and sat back and laughed. All along the DOJ has been quietly compiling evidence and saying "We'll see who has the last laugh here." Never try and screw with something that has the power to screw you back tenfold.
I don't see that happening. Again precedence is the Neteller case where Neteller settled and part of the agreement was they could no operate in the US. They were given a window to open their site up to Americans so they could request cashouts. The DOJ didn't dole it out, of course anything you earn is taxed as income but nothing special happened here. I see this falling along the same lines. You don't screw with DOJ but they don't screw with oversight committees and there's a few million people complaining to their Congressmen, there will be heat on DOJ to make sure everyone is repaid.
Quote: JimMorrisonthere will be heat on DOJ to make sure everyone is repaid.
You're probably right.
Quote: EvenBobThe DOJ won't care, nobody from the States was playing legally. This is different from any action that happened prior to 2006. They've closed 11 poker sites now, and seized at least 75 bank accounts. This will take years to straighten out, as it always does. I'm with the Wiz on this one, I'd make a bet that nobody ever gets anything back.
We need to set some terms then, I'll bet both you and WOO but it's gonna take a long time to settle the bet cuz I don't believe it's happening overnight but players will get paid. And the law actually concerned moving money not playing online so the average donk wasn't doing anything illegal at all.
Quote: JimMorrisonReally? You don't think Americans will get paid? That surprises me. I'd bet a decent amount but we have to agree on a timeline, I think it will probably happen within a year but if they fight it out in court it could be 2-3 years. I guess for a prop bet I think it would be fair to say that Americans will have their money back within a year after the case is settled. DOJ has moved to freeze the escrow accounts in the UK, Isle of Man and Ireland that deposits are kept in, for all we know they've been frozen already. I don't see them confiscating that money and fucking over a few million Americans, they'd have to answer to Congress on that.
Sorry, I misunderstood your side. I do think they will get paid, quite strongly. In the other thread I voted for over 70% as the probability.
Quote: JimMorrisonso the average donk wasn't doing anything illegal at all.
Just losing too much, probably.
Quote: EvenBobThe DOJ won't care, nobody from the States was playing legally. .
The law did not make it illegal to play. It made it illegal for a bank or quasibank to transfer funds to or from the poker sites. The players have done nothing against the law. Some states have passed different laws making it illegal for individuals to play, Washington for sure and maybe others?
Quote: EvenBobI'll bet the DOJ doesn't see it that way. Some states have passed felony laws on playing internet poker. Everybody went around the law passed in 2006, and the DOJ has never really appreciated that. The may work slow, but they're always working.
"A grand jury has charged 11 defendants, including the founders of the poker sites, with bank fraud, money laundering, and violating gambling laws. The prosecutors are claiming that the sites tricked and bribed U.S. banks to receive profits from online gambling, an act that violated UIGEA"
These sites committed criminal acts and if you played there, you were playing at sites committing criminal acts. I'm reading that teams of lawyers are filing against the DOJ already and that means only one thing: They'll keep it tied up in court as long as possible so they can wring every last dime out of it to line their pockets with.
DOJ doesn't take things personally. Especially when it concerns a law passed under a previous Administration. Top officials at DOJ are appointed and must be confirmed, furthermore they have congressional oversight and budgets that have to be passed. Nobody in Congress is gonna get worked up about 11 people getting charged with bank fraud, however if millions of American's have a combined 2.5 billion dollars permanently confiscated then Members will get worked up. It will not happen. I'll be anything that everyone gets all their money back eventually.
And what teams of lawyers are filing against DOJ already? That's a joke right there, it's Saturday and this came down on a Friday. Federal courts aren't open on the weekend so nobody is filing already. This is just mass hysteria and one person tweets something then it's on 2+2 then everyone is reciting it like it's gospel. And what do people file against DOJ anyways? There needs to be cause for a lawsuit and the Justice Dept has merely convened a grand jury that indicted people on bank fraud. Nothing has happened that could possibly cause teams of lawyers to file suits against DOJ lol.
Quote: kenarmanThe law did not make it illegal to play. It made it illegal for a bank or quasibank to transfer funds to or from the poker sites. The players have done nothing against the law. Some states have passed different laws making it illegal for individuals to play, Washington for sure and maybe others?
Thank you, another voice of reason here.
I understand everyone is upset. I'm pissed at the situation too. But I've been through it before with Neteller and had more money tied up then. Mass hysteria does nothing here. I get that people want to vent on the forums and that's fine but if you read that 47+ page thread on 2+2 you'll see there are very few facts there just hysteria.
Quote: JimMorrisonBut I've been through it before with Neteller
Oh yeah? Did you get all of it back?
Quote: EvenBobComparing this with the Neteller case is like comparing a rowboat accident with the Titanic. As long as the poker sites can keep operating outside the US, whats their incentive to cough up 3bil to settle this case? They already know that once the case ends, nobody from the States will be able to play for real money with them, until the law here is changed. And what happened yesterday has set back the likelihood of that happening to about zero.
You are aware that Neteller continued to operate outside the US during their ordeal right? And you are aware that Neteller continues to operate outside the US today? What is the incentive to settle? Well they already have their money frozen so the only way they get some of it back is settling this, and it will be settled for a hell of a lot less than 3 billion.
Also what happened yesterday makes the likelihood of the law changing here close to 100% in my opinion. I've said for years that Stars and Tilt are idiots if they thought they'd get a free pass and be allowed to compete in the US if it was legalized. Online poker is going to get legalized now and it will be US companies in on it first. Then sites like Party that already paid up will be allowed in. Maybe, just maybe, Stars and Tilt will someday be licensed if they settle now but by then they won't be the dominant companies anymore.
Quote: JimMorrisonYou are aware that Neteller continued to operate outside the US during their ordeal right? And you are aware that Neteller continues to operate outside the US today? What is the incentive to settle? Well they already have their money frozen so the only way they get some of it back is settling this, and it will be settled for a hell of a lot less than 3 billion.
3 bil is a bit much.
Quote: EvenBobNeteller was not an online casino. Those charges are a little hard to wiggle out of with a 'settlement'. Neteller wasn't run by organized crime. You're comparing apples to oranges. And if you think the American people are all hot and bothered now to get an internet gambling bill passed, after this huge indictment AGAINST it, you couldn't be more wrong.
I've always respected your posts even though I don't agree with you a lot. But I'm losing respect if you continue to say Stars and Tilt were run by organized crime. Nothing supports this at all, it's just fanning the flames of mass hysteria.
You also said if your post that "As long as the poker sites can keep operating outside the US, whats their incentive to cough up 3bil to settle this case? They already know that once the case ends, nobody from the States will be able to play for real money with them, until the law here is changed." I pointed out that Neteller still operated outside the US during their case and still does to this day.
Online poker has come closer to passing before than I thought possible. I didn't say the American people were all hot and bothered about it though. What I did say was Congress is going to have a hard time with millions and millions of constituents who have money locked up in these sites. There is a difference. As for being wrong about online poker being legalized, I guess we will see.
Quote: JimMorrisonI pointed out that Neteller still operated outside the US during their case and still does to this day.
.
Thats true.
Quote: EvenBobThe difference is, Neteller itself was never charged with anything, its founders were. The poker sites themselves have been charged this time, as well as the founders. There is no comparison in the size of the cases. As far as run by organized crime, do you understand what the term means? "Highly centralized enterprises run by criminals for the purpose of engaging in illegal activity, most commonly for monetary profit." You don't think this describes online poker? They rip off players all the time, go and read the news clippings from the last five years at Richard Marcus' cheating website. They use the pro poker players as a 'front' for their illegal activities. Time to wake up and smell the corruption..
You and I both know when the term organized crime is thrown about most people think mafia, cartels or triads. None of those are involved here, nor have they been alleged to have been involved. So using that term is simply fear mongering.
How do they rip off players all the time? I'm not reading or believing a whackjob like Marcus who just wants to sell books. If it's so corrupt then how were so many people able to make a living off of playing? Why not rip off these players and throw the donks a hand or two? Wouldn't that make them stick around longer. You're starting to appear to be another tinfoil hat guy.
Quote: JimMorrisonI'm not reading or believing a whackjob like Marcus who just wants to sell books
I learn a lot from that site.
Quote: EvenBobSigh. If you'd bother to look at his site, he's like Drudge in that he provides links to gambling stories in the news. Sometimes he comments on them. He has hundreds of links to articles about fraud in online poker in the last 7 years. Players see the front men, their hero's from professional poker, and think everything must be totally legit. If they only knew..
I have no hero's in poker. I know many players who are on TV, I like some of them others I don't like. All for personal reasons. I'm not a big conspiracy person sorry. I don't have a lot of respect for people who always believe there is some big scam or some group of people controlling things and that they are one of the few enlightened ones who get it.
