Advantage play, pros and cons of discussing methods.

Hello, nice to be here, have been reading a few threads and thought I'd sign up to discuss online advantage play.

I've been doing it for about two years now and my stats are:
Total in: ~$375k
Total out: ~$750k
It would be more, but I have 4 kids and another job, also I used to be a compulsive gambler and the first 6 months I was just losing most of my winnings right back. Now it is just a job to me.

In fact it probably saved my life.. the only way I could stop gambling was to turn it into a job!

This is a method I worked out myself, didn't get the idea from anyone, and can turn any amount of money into any other amount of money given enough time. It doesn't actually take that much time either, I maybe do 8 hours a week.

My first question is why would we discuss our methods online in a public forum?
At first I was thinking; I can share some of my tips and maybe learn some new ones, a lot of my work is spreadsheeting and running sims and macros, all custom built by myself in autohotkey, and I'm sure that someone else has probably done the same, maybe they have ideas I haven't thought of.

But of course, if you share your magical money making secret then it's only a matter of time before everyone is using it and then it's useless.

So I thought, ok, what if we just discuss more broad topics, for example how to avoid detection by casinos, good bits of software that aren't too specific, etc.
But again, why put up this information in public for the casinos security departments to peruse?
If you say you have to do x at casino y to avoid a security check then they just see that post and put new countermeasures into place.

And so now I'm thinking maybe the only reason to post about these things is to brag about it.
Because it's a really good feeling to beat the casinos who, more often than not, took so much from us earlier in our lives and you can't tell anyone about it.
Maybe you tell your wife, and once you drunkenly, and stupidly told a friend, but you know that keeping it on the down low is necessary.

I feel like it's a shame to have accumulated as much knowledge in this area as I have and not share it, but sharing it would destroy it's viability.

For example, if you have discovered a method you could either A) make a YouTube video about it and have it mitigated in a week, or B) get free money potentially for the rest of your life.

Which does lead me to another question, how far do you push it?
Let's say you discovered the above method, you can basically print money from casinos with it, do you just sign up to a half dozen in different groups and pull a couple grand a month from each? Or do you hit up 3 dozen casinos for $50k each, almost ensuring discovery by at least one? Or do you try and go the way of smurfs or gnomes (I'm not sure of the terminology) to avoid detection indefinitely?

I don't think there is any way to know the "correct" answer to that one, you could be cautious and then get found out anyway, only making a couple k, or you could last awhile and then someone else discovers the method and ruins it for you, leaving you wishing you'd pushed harder sooner.

I have been thinking about documenting my methods and story, maybe after a couple more years I have enough money to give it up, release an anonymous YouTube video on it...

Anyway, curious to know what you all think can be achieved by discussion online here without proving detrimental long term.

Can I give this a shot? I’m not an AP, so I got no skin in the answer.

First. Foremost. Rule #1. You keep your mouth friggin’ shut and make your money. If there was a hidden spring in your back yard that flowed hundred dollar bills, would you tell anyone? Of course not. How do you know that there aren’t a dozen other APs who have found the same play, and who have been quietly exploiting it for months, or years? You don’t. Keep your head down and take the cash. It will go away eventually. Finding new sources is hard work, that’s why I don’t do it.

Second: I’m not sure why people come here to talk guardedly about their plays, and their playing. But I’m going to make a guess that it is precisely because it is a somewhat solitary life, and gamblers can be somewhat misanthropic while also wanting to be social; they seek out their own kind in groups for general cameraderie, but discuss useful information privately, if at all, and only when it benefits them. I pass no judgement here. There are misanthropic people I know whom I like far more than other, more friendly people I know. It is what it is. Recognize and act accordingly.

Third: Extrapolating from my non-AP career in sales, I think how you exploit an advantage is going to depend on the situation. For one example, if the casino is a 20 minute drive from your house, you milk it; if you flew across the country, you slam it. Experience is the key. Some sheep you shear, others you slaughter. The more you know about the particulars that surround the actual mechanics involved in making the play, the better you can judge.

I figure it's a vocation of last resort. Some people naturally put their travels up on social media nowadays, whether with the permission of the casino, or without and they get the bum's rush and get multi-bans everywhere. I haven't really started in casinos so I don't see any need to post my winnings online for views, and it's probably a bad idea for me personally to be bragging online about my real jackpots and such. I might check in for questions and strategies and tax features. But I've been noticing that inflation has been blowing everything out of proportion lately How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.
link to original post

Surprisingly it's not that much.
A single AP'er only needs $400k to retire if he has 2 competing casino hotels nearby that gives him free rooms 4days/week each or any combination of casino hotels that give free rooms that total at least 8 days. (Pro-tip: It's easy to get 5days (4nights) at a Caesars.)
8 days so that you're not rushed to move in the morning so you can move at your leisure.

thus You don't need a house/apartment.
and Comps pays for food/drink.

I came to that $400k # if i eliminated rent and food from my own budget.
$350k in high yield dividend stock fund earning avg 4%/yr + 2%/yr dividends (6% total) for $21k/yr.
$50k in high yield online bank as emergency cash reserves. $50k should cover ANY emergency of a normal person. ie: not a Kardashian
Have dividends (which are normally paid quarterly) auto-deposited into your nearby brick and mortar bank for spending $. The beauty of dividends is that you still get paid even if the stock market turns bad.
and Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than profit on short term stock sales.
The other amount of spending $ is from the small profit from being an AP. Since there are multiple casinos nearby, it means lots of people in the area. Lots of people = lots of hustlers/competition.

The trick is to get to that magical $400k mark. :)

Edit:
And NOT collecting social security.
if i'm old, i'm not sure i want to be doing moving twice a week till i need a nursing home

I'm thinking I'd need $1.5 million earning 5% that pays $75K/year and would qualify me for a $1,875/month apartment.

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.
link to original post

Surprisingly it's not that much.
A single AP'er only needs $400k to retire if he has 2 competing casino hotels nearby that gives him free rooms 4days/week each or any combination of casino hotels that give free rooms that total at least 8 days. (Pro-tip: It's easy to get 5days/week at a Caesars.)
8 days so that you're not rushed to move in the morning so you can move at your leisure.

thus You don't need a house/apartment.
and Comps pays for food/drink.

I came to that $400k # if i eliminated rent and food from my own budget.
$350k in high yield dividend stock fund earning avg 4%/yr + 2%/yr dividends (6% total) for $21k/yr.
$50k in high yield online bank as emergency cash reserves. $50k should cover ANY emergency of a normal person. ie: not a Kardashian

Have dividends (which are normally paid quarterly) auto-deposited into your nearby brick and mortar bank for spending $.
Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than profit on short term stock sales.
The other amount of spending $ is from the small profit from being an AP. Since there are multiple casinos nearby, it means lots of people in the area. Lots of people = lots of hustlers/competition.

The trick is to get to that magical $400k mark. :)
link to original post

Not a life I’d be happy with…. Living 1/2 time at two different casinos moving twice a week? I think after a month I’d just hate it….

Wife, kids…. ??

Vacations???

It’s ok for a single guy with no aspirations or dreams…

One person can easily retire with a 400-500K nest egg, assuming they will collect Social Security and move to a cheap location. You won't live a jet-set lifestyle, but you won't be eating dog food and huddling around candles for warmth. I'm three years into collecting social security, and so far, I have not touched my nest egg, so I've more money now than when I first collected at 62. I have a plan and a budget that hopefully lets me not touch it for seven more years, allowing it to double one last time. It didn't happen by accident, I started planning for it years ago, all the while semi-convinced I wouldn't live long enough to enjoy it.
Figure out your SS income, and find a place to live that is around half of it. It's not that complicated.

Quote: SOOPOO

Not a life I’d be happy with…. Living 1/2 time at two different casinos moving twice a week? I think after a month I’d just hate it….

Wife, kids…. ??
Vacations???

It’s ok for a single guy with no aspirations or dreams…
link to original post

I did say single person in my post. :)
why can't you go on vacation? Just rent a storage unit for a month or 2

Quote: billryan

One person can easily retire with a 400-500K nest egg, assuming they will collect Social Security and move to a cheap location. You won't live a jet-set lifestyle, but you won't be eating dog food and huddling around candles for warmth. I'm three years into collecting social security, and so far, I have not touched my nest egg, so I've more money now than when I first collected at 62. I have a plan and a budget that hopefully lets me not touch it for seven more years, allowing it to double one last time. It didn't happen by accident, I started planning for it years ago, all the while semi-convinced I wouldn't live long enough to enjoy it.
Figure out your SS income, and find a place to live that is around half of it. It's not that complicated.
link to original post

Ah.. didn't think about SS.
With SS and the 2%/yr dividends, a single person should easily live in a studio appt.

edited my post to say without SS

Heck, if you want to do something illegal, don't report any gambling income while not having a job so income = poverty.
Be on free Medicaid, collect food stamps, and get free public housing (albeit probably in a bad neighborhood).

If you like a nomadic life, you can live incredibly cheaply. I belong to a group that offers weekly hotel stays for $99 a week, but you can only stay two weeks, and they only become available a few weeks before and almost always off-season. I know couples that live in an RV but spend a week or two in hotels.
I've met a number of people who are downsizing and traveling the country, looking for that perfect spot. There's nothing wrong with being on a permanent vacation.

Quote: Mosca

Can I give this a shot? I’m not an AP, so I got no skin in the answer.
link to original post

Many of the most useful discussions I see are not directly about plays. Tips for dealing with car problems, "the $20 sandwich", food... these matters may not be AP specific, but could be disproportionately relevant to AP's (and full time travellers).

Of particular note, I lost 3 hours last night picking up prescriptions, which confounded me with this blizzard. Gotta look into a better way.

I have a simple answer

I believe someone way wiser than me on here said the phrase:

"loose lips sink ships"

You may scoff thinking that, until it happens to you...

Quote: 100xOdds

Heck, if you want to do something illegal, don't report any gambling income while not having a job so income = poverty.
Be on free Medicaid, collect food stamps, and get free public housing (albeit probably in a bad neighborhood).
link to original post

In terms of what I would need to retire, I'm only 40 and have a wife and 4 kids, wife wants mother in law to move in and my dad will probably need to sue to health reasons so we'll need a bigger house soon.. this and kids add up quickly.

I wouldn’t count on any specific casinos’ income in retirement calculations… That’s a decades thing, casino opportunities will change, even if often slowly.

Assuming active income/investment isn’t retirement in the classic sense….Nothing wrong with working when retired, but active income isn’t/shouldn’t be calculated or assumed into any retirement calcs imo.

Quote: mcallister3200

I wouldn’t count on any specific casinos’ income in retirement calculations… That’s a decades thing, casino opportunities will change, even if often slowly.

Assuming active income/investment isn’t retirement in the classic sense….Nothing wrong with working when retired, but active income isn’t/shouldn’t be calculated or assumed into any retirement calcs imo.
link to original post

Yes I've churned through maybe two dozen casinos, and researched dozens more.

Quote: DOBSSN

Quote: 100xOdds

Heck, if you want to do something illegal, don't report any gambling income while not having a job so income = poverty.
Be on free Medicaid, collect food stamps, and get free public housing (albeit probably in a bad neighborhood).
link to original post

In terms of what I would need to retire, I'm only 40 and have a wife and 4 kids, wife wants mother in law to move in and my dad will probably need to sue to health reasons so we'll need a bigger house soon.. this and kids add up quickly.
link to original post

Dump the wife and kids, disassociate with family and live as a single drifter. That would be a lot cheaper and easier to manage.

Quote: DRich

Quote: DOBSSN

Quote: 100xOdds

Heck, if you want to do something illegal, don't report any gambling income while not having a job so income = poverty.
Be on free Medicaid, collect food stamps, and get free public housing (albeit probably in a bad neighborhood).
link to original post

In terms of what I would need to retire, I'm only 40 and have a wife and 4 kids, wife wants mother in law to move in and my dad will probably need to sue to health reasons so we'll need a bigger house soon.. this and kids add up quickly.
link to original post

Dump the wife and kids, disassociate with family and live as a single drifter. That would be a lot cheaper and easier to manage.
link to original post

There will almost surely be some form of excise levied, substantially reducing the "cheaper".

Quote: Dieter

Quote: DRich

Quote: DOBSSN

Quote: 100xOdds

Heck, if you want to do something illegal, don't report any gambling income while not having a job so income = poverty.
Be on free Medicaid, collect food stamps, and get free public housing (albeit probably in a bad neighborhood).
link to original post

In terms of what I would need to retire, I'm only 40 and have a wife and 4 kids, wife wants mother in law to move in and my dad will probably need to sue to health reasons so we'll need a bigger house soon.. this and kids add up quickly.
link to original post

Dump the wife and kids, disassociate with family and live as a single drifter. That would be a lot cheaper and easier to manage.
link to original post

There will almost surely be some form of excise levied, substantially reducing the "cheaper".
link to original post

Not if you do it properly. Just disappear and change your identity.

Quote: DRich

Quote: Dieter

Quote: DRich

Quote: DOBSSN

Quote: 100xOdds

Heck, if you want to do something illegal, don't report any gambling income while not having a job so income = poverty.
Be on free Medicaid, collect food stamps, and get free public housing (albeit probably in a bad neighborhood).
link to original post

In terms of what I would need to retire, I'm only 40 and have a wife and 4 kids, wife wants mother in law to move in and my dad will probably need to sue to health reasons so we'll need a bigger house soon.. this and kids add up quickly.
link to original post

Dump the wife and kids, disassociate with family and live as a single drifter. That would be a lot cheaper and easier to manage.
link to original post

There will almost surely be some form of excise levied, substantially reducing the "cheaper".
link to original post

Not if you do it properly. Just disappear and change your identity.
link to original post

... so that's what I've been doing wrong all these years.
I'm unlikely to move to Jayapura with a new name.

To answer the OP…. as always, it’s all about EV! You have to decide if the EV YOU get from posting these plays is worth it to YOU! You obviously have a -EV factor in you might ruin a play, but a +EV factor in you might learn something valuable about a different play from another poster. Plus you might experience +EV in that you ENJOY talking about these things.

I have a thread about my sports betting. It is certainly ‘possible’ that my exposing some weaknesses in the way promos are offered ‘may’ be used by the sportsbooks to eliminate them. I just think the likelihood of me moving the needle is very low…. Far less than the likelihood of me helping another forum member….I’ve been helped, both online and in person, enough that I don’t mind giving back….

Really interesting post, thanks for that.

I'm in the UK, and I left my old job to AP full time 8-9 years ago. For the first couple of years I was purely doing things with online casinos, mostly focused on taking advantage of the bonuses and finding ways around the limitations placed by wagering requirements.

The US isn't a mature market yet in regards to online gambling and is likely to follow the same path as the UK, so my advice to you is to assume that sooner or later all the sites you're using will either reduce their offering, or tighten up on any loopholes you're currently exploiting. Make hay while the sun shines!

In regards to people communicating about this stuff, I assume that most people who have useful things to share do so within private messaging groups, rather than on public forums. There are several people on here who were really helpful to me when I was still learning the basics, but they don't post much anymore. I like this forum, but if you hear something useful here then it's usually like getting advice about a hot stock pick from a taxi driver.

I do think though, that if I hear about something publicly that I can't take advantage of, I will share it on this forum or on other forums. The recent Morongo blackjack promotion during COVID was posted here, for instance, by me. I have a day job and take care of my family so can't chase advantage plays, but I have figured out the video poker games that will allow me to be +EV on the bounceback at both local casinos and Vegas, and continue to happily patronize them as long as the bounceback keeps me +EV. It is not enough to make a living off of but enough to make it a mathematically break even or slightly positive hobby, although I have been on the negative expectation side of this recently. If someone tells me privately or in confidence, I won't share it. If I discover something myself that I can't use, and it seems to be useful, I will share it, other people priming it be damned.

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.
link to original post

Surprisingly it's not that much.
A single AP'er only needs $400k to retire if he has 2 competing casino hotels nearby that gives him free rooms 4days/week each or any combination of casino hotels that give free rooms that total at least 8 days. (Pro-tip: It's easy to get 5days (4nights) at a Caesars.)
8 days so that you're not rushed to move in the morning so you can move at your leisure.

thus You don't need a house/apartment.
and Comps pays for food/drink.

I came to that $400k # if i eliminated rent and food from my own budget.
$350k in high yield dividend stock fund earning avg 4%/yr + 2%/yr dividends (6% total) for $21k/yr.
$50k in high yield online bank as emergency cash reserves. $50k should cover ANY emergency of a normal person. ie: not a Kardashian
Have dividends (which are normally paid quarterly) auto-deposited into your nearby brick and mortar bank for spending $. The beauty of dividends is that you still get paid even if the stock market turns bad.
and Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than profit on short term stock sales.
The other amount of spending $ is from the small profit from being an AP. Since there are multiple casinos nearby, it means lots of people in the area. Lots of people = lots of hustlers/competition.

The trick is to get to that magical $400k mark. :)

Edit:
And NOT collecting social security.
if i'm old, i'm not sure i want to be doing moving twice a week till i need a nursing home
link to original post

Living in casino hotels is NOT something I’d ever do voluntarily. I do AP and have a house. Other people I know who do AP live in hotels and they’re miserable. They end up doing drugs, and are surrounded by people who also do drugs.

Here are my observations from being a professional AP.

- It’s a lonely job. The only interaction you will have is with casino staff who have no idea what you’re doing, and with other AP’s who for the most part are terrible dishonest human beings. I consider myself one of the few AP’s who is both honest and not greedy. My “coworkers” are for the most part terrible people who do this because they couldn’t do any other job successfully.

- Most AP’s, just like small businesses fail. This happens for a multitude of reasons but is normally due to either not having an adequate bankroll, or not being disciplined enough to walk away. You can’t teach discipline and most AP’s simply don’t have it. Most will fail.

That’s all for now.

Quote: ChumpChange

I'm thinking I'd need $1.5 million earning 5% that pays $75K/year and would qualify me for a $1,875/month apartment.
link to original post

Double or triple that. Inflation is out of control.

Quote: Slotenthusiast

- Most AP’s, just like small businesses fail. This happens for a multitude of reasons but is normally due to either not having an adequate bankroll, or not being disciplined enough to walk away. You can’t teach discipline and most AP’s simply don’t have it. Most will fail.

That’s all for now.
link to original post

Yup discipline.

i'm chasing a slightly -ev play.
i hit a decent bonus.
i should quit yet i'll play till i finish the play and almost always end up with less $ than if i left after the bonus.
Worse is when i have less $ than when i started the play. :(

Quote: 100xOdds

Yup discipline.

i'm chasing a slightly -ev play.
i hit a decent bonus.
i should quit yet i'll play till i finish the play and almost always end up with less $ than if i left after the bonus.
Worse is when i have less $ than when i started the play. :(

I am like you, I have a hard time walking from +EV

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

Yup discipline.

i'm chasing a slightly -ev play.
i hit a decent bonus.
i should quit yet i'll play till i finish the play and almost always end up with less $ than if i left after the bonus.
Worse is when i have less $ than when i started the play. :(

I am like you, I have a hard time walking from +EV
link to original post

I used to drink quite a lot and one night I lost my entire winnings for the year, $170k if I recall on some stupid slot I'm pretty sure was a pirated Gates of Olympus with reduced rtp.

Since I've stopped drinking about four months ago I don't seem to have any problems with impulse control.

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.
link to original post

Surprisingly it's not that much.
A single AP'er only needs $400k to retire if he has 2 competing casino hotels nearby that gives him free rooms 4days/week each or any combination of casino hotels that give free rooms that total at least 8 days. (Pro-tip: It's easy to get 5days (4nights) at a Caesars.)
8 days so that you're not rushed to move in the morning so you can move at your leisure.

thus You don't need a house/apartment.
and Comps pays for food/drink.

I came to that $400k # if i eliminated rent and food from my own budget.
$350k in high yield dividend stock fund earning avg 4%/yr + 2%/yr dividends (6% total) for $21k/yr.
$50k in high yield online bank as emergency cash reserves. $50k should cover ANY emergency of a normal person. ie: not a Kardashian
Have dividends (which are normally paid quarterly) auto-deposited into your nearby brick and mortar bank for spending $. The beauty of dividends is that you still get paid even if the stock market turns bad.
and Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than profit on short term stock sales.
The other amount of spending $ is from the small profit from being an AP. Since there are multiple casinos nearby, it means lots of people in the area. Lots of people = lots of hustlers/competition.

The trick is to get to that magical $400k mark. :)

Edit:
And NOT collecting social security.
if i'm old, i'm not sure i want to be doing moving twice a week till i need a nursing home
link to original post

Living in casino hotels is NOT something I’d ever do voluntarily. I do AP and have a house. Other people I know who do AP live in hotels and they’re miserable. They end up doing drugs, and are surrounded by people who also do drugs.
link to original post

I primarily live in my car when I can't get a comp and comped casino hotels when I can. I have two friends who live permanently in hotels and are otherwise homeless. None of us do drugs. I think it's just dependent on their personality. We view AP as a great money source and see our current struggles as a gateway to future comforts. We don't want to spend money unnecessarily on anything that isn't essential. We aren't particularly difficult to please as long as we have a phone and can play some casual online games between the long hours grinding once in a while.

Quote: ctslots

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.
link to original post

Surprisingly it's not that much.
A single AP'er only needs $400k to retire if he has 2 competing casino hotels nearby that gives him free rooms 4days/week each or any combination of casino hotels that give free rooms that total at least 8 days. (Pro-tip: It's easy to get 5days (4nights) at a Caesars.)
8 days so that you're not rushed to move in the morning so you can move at your leisure.

thus You don't need a house/apartment.
and Comps pays for food/drink.

I came to that $400k # if i eliminated rent and food from my own budget.
$350k in high yield dividend stock fund earning avg 4%/yr + 2%/yr dividends (6% total) for $21k/yr.
$50k in high yield online bank as emergency cash reserves. $50k should cover ANY emergency of a normal person. ie: not a Kardashian
Have dividends (which are normally paid quarterly) auto-deposited into your nearby brick and mortar bank for spending $. The beauty of dividends is that you still get paid even if the stock market turns bad.
and Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than profit on short term stock sales.
The other amount of spending $ is from the small profit from being an AP. Since there are multiple casinos nearby, it means lots of people in the area. Lots of people = lots of hustlers/competition.

The trick is to get to that magical $400k mark. :)

Edit:
And NOT collecting social security.
if i'm old, i'm not sure i want to be doing moving twice a week till i need a nursing home
link to original post

Living in casino hotels is NOT something I’d ever do voluntarily. I do AP and have a house. Other people I know who do AP live in hotels and they’re miserable. They end up doing drugs, and are surrounded by people who also do drugs.
link to original post

I primarily live in my car when I can't get a comp and comped casino hotels when I can. I have two friends who live permanently in hotels and are otherwise homeless. None of us do drugs. I think it's just dependent on their personality. We view AP as a great money source and see our current struggles as a gateway to future comforts. We don't want to spend money unnecessarily on anything that isn't essential. We aren't particularly difficult to please as long as we have a phone and can play some casual online games between the long hours grinding once in a while.
link to original post

Quality of life is also essential. How long have you been living out of your car and hotels?

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: ctslots

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I need to retire on? Several million? Do I need Mikki Mase type winnings of several million within 2-3 years? How far is too far in which market? Will Las Vegas shut down from drought within 3-5 years? Will COVID keep me from gambling suddenly and for how long? Treat your strategies like trade secrets if they are paying off for you. The eye in the sky will try to pry them away from you soon enough.
link to original post

Surprisingly it's not that much.
A single AP'er only needs $400k to retire if he has 2 competing casino hotels nearby that gives him free rooms 4days/week each or any combination of casino hotels that give free rooms that total at least 8 days. (Pro-tip: It's easy to get 5days (4nights) at a Caesars.)
8 days so that you're not rushed to move in the morning so you can move at your leisure.

thus You don't need a house/apartment.
and Comps pays for food/drink.

I came to that $400k # if i eliminated rent and food from my own budget.
$350k in high yield dividend stock fund earning avg 4%/yr + 2%/yr dividends (6% total) for $21k/yr.
$50k in high yield online bank as emergency cash reserves. $50k should cover ANY emergency of a normal person. ie: not a Kardashian
Have dividends (which are normally paid quarterly) auto-deposited into your nearby brick and mortar bank for spending $. The beauty of dividends is that you still get paid even if the stock market turns bad.
and Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than profit on short term stock sales.
The other amount of spending $ is from the small profit from being an AP. Since there are multiple casinos nearby, it means lots of people in the area. Lots of people = lots of hustlers/competition.

The trick is to get to that magical $400k mark. :)

Edit:
And NOT collecting social security.
if i'm old, i'm not sure i want to be doing moving twice a week till i need a nursing home
link to original post

Living in casino hotels is NOT something I’d ever do voluntarily. I do AP and have a house. Other people I know who do AP live in hotels and they’re miserable. They end up doing drugs, and are surrounded by people who also do drugs.
link to original post

I primarily live in my car when I can't get a comp and comped casino hotels when I can. I have two friends who live permanently in hotels and are otherwise homeless. None of us do drugs. I think it's just dependent on their personality. We view AP as a great money source and see our current struggles as a gateway to future comforts. We don't want to spend money unnecessarily on anything that isn't essential. We aren't particularly difficult to please as long as we have a phone and can play some casual online games between the long hours grinding once in a while.
link to original post

Quality of life is also essential. How long have you been living out of your car and hotels?
link to original post

About a year now.

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

Because when the side gig pays more than the full.time job the impetus to work full time disappears.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

Because when the side gig pays more than the full.time job the impetus to work full time disappears.
link to original post

Which is great, until one gets sick or decides to retire.

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

Because when the side gig pays more than the full.time job the impetus to work full time disappears.
link to original post

Which is great, until one gets sick or decides to retire.
link to original post

Is there some unwritten rule that AP's don't pay taxes or pay for health insurance?

Funny cause I pay my taxes. Never was concerned about not being eligible for my social security

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

Because when the side gig pays more than the full.time job the impetus to work full time disappears.
link to original post

Which is great, until one gets sick or decides to retire.
link to original post

Is there some unwritten rule that AP's don't pay taxes or pay for health insurance?

Funny cause I pay my taxes. Never was concerned about not being eligible for my social security
link to original post

So you pay all your taxes but won't be eligible for Social Security? That makes no sense. Either you pay your 12% plus self employment tax and are eligible to collect SS or you don't pay your taxes and therefore aren't eligible. It's an If-Then. If you pay, you can collect.

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

Because when the side gig pays more than the full.time job the impetus to work full time disappears.
link to original post

Which is great, until one gets sick or decides to retire.
link to original post

Is there some unwritten rule that AP's don't pay taxes or pay for health insurance?

Funny cause I pay my taxes. Never was concerned about not being eligible for my social security
link to original post

So you pay all your taxes but won't be eligible for Social Security? That makes no sense. Either you pay your 12% plus self employment tax and are eligible to collect SS or you don't pay your taxes and therefore aren't eligible. It's an If-Then. If you pay, you can collect.
link to original post

Why would I not be eligible for social security?

I pay into it every year when I do my taxes.

Why would you write that you weren't concerned about not being eligible for your social security?
Nevermind. I'm not interested in a drawn-out debate.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: ctslots

Quote: billryan

So you found yourself a job that pays enough to live in low rent hotels, with no social security, no pension, no health plan and little chance of advancement.
Congraduations.
link to original post

It also pays enough for me to be able to afford to buy my own house after that one year, but I would rather continue living my inexpensive lifestyle and increasing my wealth than that.
link to original post

Nothing wrong with the plan if it works for you. If you are truly saving up to get ‘back’ into a ‘regular’ lifestyle, then we wish you well. I think the thought if it being a ‘forever’ plan is what is problematic for most.
Don’t ignore Billy’s comment pointing out that a ‘forever AP’ has to buy his own health insurance, won’t get social security. And there is always the possibility of the ‘tap on the shoulder’.

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

Because when the side gig pays more than the full.time job the impetus to work full time disappears.
link to original post

Which is great, until one gets sick or decides to retire.
link to original post

Is there some unwritten rule that AP's don't pay taxes or pay for health insurance?

Funny cause I pay my taxes. Never was concerned about not being eligible for my social security
link to original post

So you pay all your taxes but won't be eligible for Social Security? That makes no sense. Either you pay your 12% plus self employment tax and are eligible to collect SS or you don't pay your taxes and therefore aren't eligible. It's an If-Then. If you pay, you can collect.
link to original post

Why would I not be eligible for social security?

I pay into it every year when I do my taxes.
link to original post

If I may ask….. how do you get your health insurance? It seems like you make too much to qualify for ‘Obamacare’ but a family plan in NYC has to be upwards of 30k. Mine in Buffalo if paying full rate would be around 25k.

I wonder what % of full time APs are paying into SS?

(snip!)

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

When I had a "regular" job, it was very hard to get to a casino to look for or capitalize on plays.
Finding the kind of day job that honestly doesn't care if you need to take a few hours or days off to play on short notice is shockingly hard.
Too many jobs want you to "show up" and "keep a predictable schedule", and they really don't care that some plays are time sensitive.

Quote: billryan

Why would you write that you weren't concerned about not being eligible for your social security?
Nevermind. I'm not interested in a drawn-out debate.
link to original post

I am not concerned because as a taxpayer I am eligible.

That people don't understand nuance of language is just sad.

Like if Bill Gates, says "I am not concerned about going hungry" its because he has so much food not having any isn't a concern. He isn't saying he has no food to eat!

I am not concerned with not being eligible for social security because as a taxpayer I am.

Quote: Dieter

(snip!)

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

When I had a "regular" job, it was very hard to get to a casino to look for or capitalize on plays.
Finding the kind of day job that honestly doesn't care if you need to take a few hours or days off to play on short notice is shockingly hard.
Too many jobs want you to "show up" and "keep a predictable schedule", and they really don't care that some plays are time sensitive.
link to original post

I was able to do it for about 20 years. I had my regular 8 to 5 job and would play after work and on weekends. I know it is harder now but back then I just looked for the best opportunities and played them. The majority of my play was off of lucrative casino promotions. In my best years I had a video poker play that was averaging close to $200 an hour.

Quote: Dieter

(snip!)

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

When I had a "regular" job, it was very hard to get to a casino to look for or capitalize on plays.
Finding the kind of day job that honestly doesn't care if you need to take a few hours or days off to play on short notice is shockingly hard.
Too many jobs want you to "show up" and "keep a predictable schedule", and they really don't care that some plays are time sensitive.
link to original post

The easiest thing to do is to start your own business. I'm amazed how many people could easily benefit by doing so, but for some reason, they can't be bothered. Your Uncle Sam literally wants to hand out money, but people are afraid.

Every opportunity I found over the last 20ish years has disappeared or got a lot worse.

You don't need to burn a play into the ground, but it is very unlikely to be there 5, 10 years from now. New opportunities will emerge, but what you have today will take twice the effort for half the money - if it is still alive. Maximize.

If you have no family or other obligations, go after the money. A few years of sacrifice will set you up for life. Casino life is no life. (IMO.)

***

You have to use your judgement what info you can share and with whom. Sharing accelerated my growth and it made my circle of APs stronger as well. Test the waters with people you know and you will quickly find out who gives back, who only takes, and who will throw you under the bus. You need to build relationships and trust and that takes time and shared experiences.

***

As for retirement, more money = more options.

I know 3 guys - regular jobs and savings- who have retired in Thailand, Vietnam and Czech Republic around ages of 45-55. You get so much more for your money in cheaper, more developing countries. Your quality of life will be 5x compared to what you get anywhere in the US. They live a better life on 2-3K/month than I live in NYC paying a lot more.

Quote: DRich

Quote: Dieter

(snip!)

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

When I had a "regular" job, it was very hard to get to a casino to look for or capitalize on plays.
Finding the kind of day job that honestly doesn't care if you need to take a few hours or days off to play on short notice is shockingly hard.
Too many jobs want you to "show up" and "keep a predictable schedule", and they really don't care that some plays are time sensitive.
link to original post

I was able to do it for about 20 years. I had my regular 8 to 5 job and would play after work and on weekends. I know it is harder now but back then I just looked for the best opportunities and played them. The majority of my play was off of lucrative casino promotions. In my best years I had a video poker play that was averaging close to $200 an hour.
link to original post

I'm sure it depends on the market.
Out here in the sticks, the opportunities are farther between.

Quote: billryan

Quote: Dieter

(snip!)

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m frankly surprised more don’t have a regular job/regular lifestyle and do AP as a side gig.
link to original post

When I had a "regular" job, it was very hard to get to a casino to look for or capitalize on plays.
Finding the kind of day job that honestly doesn't care if you need to take a few hours or days off to play on short notice is shockingly hard.
Too many jobs want you to "show up" and "keep a predictable schedule", and they really don't care that some plays are time sensitive.
link to original post

The easiest thing to do is to start your own business. I'm amazed how many people could easily benefit by doing so, but for some reason, they can't be bothered. Your Uncle Sam literally wants to hand out money, but people are afraid.
link to original post

At least for now, I'd prefer to be a drain on someone else's business than an underperforming producer for my own.

I paid $14,000 in property tax my last year in NY. Moved to Las Vegas and paid less than $12,000 to rent a two-bedroom in a gated community with pools and a health club. Now I live in a house I bought in a nice retirement community in Tucson, a city I'm finding fascinating. My expenses are about a third of what they were in NY. I've looked in Costa Rica and Mexico. I lived three miles from the border and visited Mexico quite often, but decided it wasn't the place for me to live.