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AxelWolf
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March 3rd, 2020 at 11:11:40 PM permalink
I have no idea what heatmap is getting at.

Quote: heatmap

As of today I am going to side with the casino.

What's to side with the casino about? Casino makes claims they run a fair game using a provably fair system, however, they are intentionally cheating players.

Quote: heatmap

But this is an example as to why I know my software will be successful.

???

Quote: heatmap

You guys are so worried about whether or not this is right or wrong and I bet itís completely legal wherever their servers are located at.



Quote: heatmap

Everyone thinks this stuff canít happen because anytime someone comes to this website the only person who can make these accusations is the former owner because people trust them more.

who thinks this can't happen? I think by now most people are skeptical when playing online. Anyone can bring accusations, especially if they have some type of evidence or proof like they did in this case and others. Obviously, gut feelings isn't enough to go on. I really don't know how this is different than anything else in life regarding accusations. We always put more faith in someone's accusations if they're known to be trustworthy and have some knowledge on the matter. I don't care how well-known someone is, if they make sense, sound logical and seems trustworthy I'm going to believe them. The first time Scrooge told me about this, I believed him with zero evidence.

Quote: heatmap

You guys reap what you sow on here and this is the reaping.

Please elaborate on what they are sowing.
Quote: heatmap

Cheating is not illegal for casinos.

Its not? Okay, perhaps it isn't
Quote: ]heatmap

Cheating is illegal for the players.

How do you figure it's not illegal for the casinos, but it is illegal for the players?

If it's an unregulated Casino, it's probably not illegal for either the player or the casino to cheat. Or, it's illegal for them both to do so. Personally, I think a business should be held to a much higher/ stricter standard. They should be held liable under some type of predatory or fraud laws.
Last edited by: OnceDear on Mar 4, 2020
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
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March 4th, 2020 at 5:45:02 AM permalink
Axel I donít define what they do as cheating because whatever jurisdiction they are in must define what cheating is to a casino. They canít ďcheatĒ, but break the law, and are punished according to the law.

The law usully defines what cheating is for a player.
darkoz
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March 4th, 2020 at 6:44:15 AM permalink
I think what Heatmap is saying is something like this.

Axel if I offered you a friendly game of craps where I arranged for you to always pay me more when I win than I pay you when you win most people would call that cheating

With casinos that's just a legally allowed house edge.

Casinos are given more leeway to cheat the customers in the interest of profit.

I can't imagine however any jurisdiction that would allow actual game manipulation. They may however be lax in existing laws that forbid it
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Joeman
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March 4th, 2020 at 8:12:15 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Axel I donít define what they do as cheating because whatever jurisdiction they are in must define what cheating is to a casino. They canít ďcheatĒ, but break the law, and are punished according to the law.

The law usully defines what cheating is for a player.

So, by that logic, if I'm playing Monopoly and, as banker, pocket a $500 bill when no one is looking, I haven't cheated since there is no law I am breaking?

I think that is a flawed definition of cheating. Here is what the dictionary says: cheat (v.) to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

I think it has been shown here that the casino acted in a dishonest and unfair manner to gain an advantage.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
darkoz
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March 4th, 2020 at 9:33:25 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

So, by that logic, if I'm playing Monopoly and, as banker, pocket a $500 bill when no one is looking, I haven't cheated since there is no law I am breaking?

I think that is a flawed definition of cheating. Here is what the dictionary says: cheat (v.) to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

I think it has been shown here that the casino acted in a dishonest and unfair manner to gain an advantage.



Casinos feel AP's are cheats

Perhaps we need to create a distinction between "soft cheats" and "hard cheats" with the law being broken or not the deciding factor

We run the risk of making cheating subjective otherwise
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Wizard
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March 4th, 2020 at 4:24:25 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Casinos feel AP's are cheats

Perhaps we need to create a distinction between "soft cheats" and "hard cheats" with the law being broken or not the deciding factor

We run the risk of making cheating subjective otherwise



I would say it depends on what the advantage play is and who you're asking. Our own Dan Lubin felt card counting was cheating. However, most on the other side I think respect AP as a cat and mouse game, as I do.

There is already a fuzzy line where AP turns to cheating, at least in an ethical sense. For example, rat-holing chips on a table game loss rebate.

Using the law is not a very good measure of whether cheating has taken place of not, at least in an ethical sense. I like the dictionary definition better that Joeman quoted.

Quote: dictionary

Cheating = To act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.



To conclude, I claim Wixiplay is cheating, but do not claim how they are doing it is specifically illegal, except maybe in a general sense of fraud. I'm not a (insert adjective form for a citizen of Curacao / Netherlands Antilles) lawyer.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AxelWolf
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March 4th, 2020 at 4:52:05 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Casinos feel AP's are cheats

Perhaps we need to create a distinction between "soft cheats" and "hard cheats" with the law being broken or not the deciding factor

We run the risk of making cheating subjective otherwise

I wouldn't use the word "soft cheats" either, I call it Angle Shooting. For example, what Mike was describing with the rat-holing is a perfect example of angle shooting.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
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March 4th, 2020 at 6:08:49 PM permalink
I emphasize legality because sometimes there is a legal way to appeal laws or set the grounds for a case against casinos if they do break the law. If there is a law that gives people a place to start making a case against specific behavior. Otherwise business is business. Anything and everything a casino can and cannot do should be legally defined and if it is not then itís a legal grey area.
Wizard
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March 5th, 2020 at 5:39:14 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I emphasize legality because sometimes there is a legal way to appeal laws or set the grounds for a case against casinos if they do break the law. If there is a law that gives people a place to start making a case against specific behavior. Otherwise business is business. Anything and everything a casino can and cannot do should be legally defined and if it is not then itís a legal grey area.



I disagree. Morality should be the ultimate tool people and actions measured against. I'm not a religious person, but I try to live by the Golden Rule as best I can. I will certainly admit to falling short sometimes and for that I regret.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heatmap
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March 5th, 2020 at 5:57:33 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I disagree. Morality should be the ultimate tool people and actions measured against. I'm not a religious person, but I try to live by the Golden Rule as best I can. I will certainly admit to falling short sometimes and for that I regret.



I agree with this quote, but the problem is that we have been stripped of our abilities to "take matters into our own hands" in the way that would actually stop these people from doing what they are doing. So that's why I specifically am saying that the law is the place to start dealing with this problem. I do know morality plays into this, and that is the equivalent of just simply spreading the word, such as what you are doing here, and we as individuals can make an informed choice as to whether or not we want to place our money into the trust of companies such as this one. What they are doing is immoral, but they will continue to do what they are doing until the allure of the money of this business is not tempting enough to give up their morality.
darkoz
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March 5th, 2020 at 6:17:34 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I disagree. Morality should be the ultimate tool people and actions measured against. I'm not a religious person, but I try to live by the Golden Rule as best I can. I will certainly admit to falling short sometimes and for that I regret.



I too agree with this conceptually

Instinctively we all feel that morals are intrinsic and should be shared. Some are (murder is immoral)

But many are not (Homosexuality, drinking and yes, even gambling itself may be against a person's morals)

A personal moral compass is great but the law keeps those with different moral compasses looking in the right direction (and yes, those laws may be written by people who have skewed moral compasses themselves which is why we ended up with the South believing n enslaving people for centuries while adhering strongly to the Bible)
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Wizard
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March 5th, 2020 at 6:34:46 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I too agree with this conceptually

Instinctively we all feel that morals are intrinsic and should be shared. Some are (murder is immoral)

But many are not (Homosexuality, drinking and yes, even gambling itself may be against a person's morals)

A personal moral compass is great but the law keeps those with different moral compasses looking in the right direction (and yes, those laws may be written by people who have skewed moral compasses themselves which is why we ended up with the South believing n enslaving people for centuries while adhering strongly to the Bible)



I mostly agree with this. I would argue there is a difference between an innate moral compass and that dictated to us through religion. However, I don't want to expand on that, lest I be accused of violating the site policy against controversial statements.

Quote: Rule 19

In an effort to keep the focus of the forum on gambling, Vegas, and math, comments of a political, racial, religious, sexual, or otherwise controversial nature are not allowed. We recommend taking such discussion elsewhere

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DogHand
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March 5th, 2020 at 6:51:12 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

<snip>To conclude, I claim Wixiplay is cheating, but do not claim how they are doing it is specifically illegal, except maybe in a general sense of fraud. I'm not a (insert adjective form for a citizen of Curacao / Netherlands Antilles) lawyer.



Wizard,

The demonym you were seeking is "Curaçaoan".

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
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March 5th, 2020 at 6:56:49 AM permalink
Quote: DogHand

Wizard,

The demonym you were seeking is "Curaçaoan".

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand



Thanks!

As long as we're on the topic, what is a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago called?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Joeman
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March 5th, 2020 at 8:02:21 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks!

As long as we're on the topic, what is a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago called?

I believe they identify with their island rather than their country. I have heard of someone from Trinidad referred to as a "Trini," though that may be a colloquialism. I have no idea what someone from Tobago is called. A Toboggan? ;-)
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DRich
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March 5th, 2020 at 9:35:31 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I disagree. Morality should be the ultimate tool people and actions measured against. I'm not a religious person, but I try to live by the Golden Rule as best I can. I will certainly admit to falling short sometimes and for that I regret.



Did you ever return those "Do Not Disturb" signs or compensate the hotels?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Wizard
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March 5th, 2020 at 10:37:45 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Did you ever return those "Do Not Disturb" signs or compensate the hotels?



Touche! The answer is "no." I think I decided to leave a very generous tip to the housekeeper at a future hotel stay, but must admit I forgot to do so when I went to New York in December. So, yes, I've still got that one hanging over my head.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DogHand
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March 5th, 2020 at 8:27:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks!

As long as we're on the topic, what is a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago called?



Wizard,

According to Wikipedia:

Trinidadians and Tobagonians
Trini (colloquial)
Trinbagonian (colloquial)

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
charliepatrick
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March 6th, 2020 at 2:37:54 AM permalink
I thought it included trying to gain an advantage using various methods (sleight of hand, altering the game mechanics, etc.) or information not available to both parties. However in the UK they've tried to clarify cheating, the latest law suggest an element of deception or interference.
Quote: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/19/section/42

42 Cheating

(1) A person commits an offence if heó
(a) cheats at gambling, or
(b) does anything for the purpose of enabling or assisting another person to cheat at gambling.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) it is immaterial whether a person who cheatsó
(a) improves his chances of winning anything, or
(b) wins anything.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) cheating at gambling may, in particular, consist of actual or attempted deception or interference in connection withó
(a) the process by which gambling is conducted, or
(b) a real or virtual game, race or other event or process to which gambling relates.

The 1845 law (extract below) was repealed by the above.
Quote: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/8-9/109/section/XVII/enacted

...[a person] by any fraud or unlawful device or ill practice in playing...[gain/win/etc.]...by a false Pretence, with Intent to cheat or defraud...

Wizard
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March 6th, 2020 at 6:19:00 AM permalink
Quote: DogHand

Wizard,

According to Wikipedia:

Trinidadians and Tobagonians
Trini (colloquial)
Trinbagonian (colloquial)



Thanks!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heatmap
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March 6th, 2020 at 12:52:13 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

I thought it included trying to gain an advantage using various methods (sleight of hand, altering the game mechanics, etc.) or information not available to both parties. However in the UK they've tried to clarify cheating, the latest law suggest an element of deception or interference.

Quote: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/19/section/42

42 Cheating

(1) A person commits an offence if heó
(a) cheats at gambling, or
(b) does anything for the purpose of enabling or assisting another person to cheat at gambling.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) it is immaterial whether a person who cheatsó
(a) improves his chances of winning anything, or
(b) wins anything.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) cheating at gambling may, in particular, consist of actual or attempted deception or interference in connection withó
(a) the process by which gambling is conducted, or
(b) a real or virtual game, race or other event or process to which gambling relates.

The 1845 law (extract below) was repealed by the above.
Quote: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/8-9/109/section/XVII/enacted

...[a person] by any fraud or unlawful device or ill practice in playing...[gain/win/etc.]...by a false Pretence, with Intent to cheat or defraud...



And I have huge issues with the wording, because how can you know if that applied to a person that works at the casino? Im sure this wording actually does apply imo.
Wizard
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heatmapAxelWolfMrCasinoGamesdarkozscroogeZuga
March 10th, 2020 at 4:26:31 PM permalink
I just sent an inquiry to the Curacao Gaming Control Board on how to file a complaint against Wixiplay. Let's see what they come back with. If any government regulatory or judicial agency makes an informed ruling on the matter, I will be very impressed.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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March 12th, 2020 at 4:17:51 PM permalink
Update 48 hours later -- Not a peep from Curacao.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Mission146
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March 13th, 2020 at 3:48:07 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Update 48 hours later -- Not a peep from Curacao.



Curacao specifically does not act as an intermediary in any way between players and the casino.

Most casinos are not even directly licensed by Curacao. What Curacao has is "Master License Holders," who then have the ability to sub-license to other individual casinos. The individual casinos who receive a sub-license have the full rights of the Master License holder, with the only exception being sub-license holders cannot issue other sub-licenses.

I'd say that if you want to have a chance at anything, then you would want to determine who the master license holder is for the casino in question and then contact them.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
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March 13th, 2020 at 5:05:10 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Curacao specifically does not act as an intermediary in any way between players and the casino.



I figured that. Not to doubt you, in fact I'm sure you're right, but do you have any source on that?

It would be nice of somebody at the Email address for the Curacao Gaming Control Board at least had the courtesy to return the Email to explain they don't serve as an intermediary. It leads to the question about what service they do provide, but that's getting off topic.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AxelWolf
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March 15th, 2020 at 11:28:45 PM permalink
Shackleford VS Cheaters: Manipulated Dice Games and Postponed Cashouts, Courtesy of Wixiplay.io

https://lcb.org/news/shackleford-vs-cheaters-manipulated-dice-games-and-postponed-cashouts-courtesy-of-wixiplay-io-21071.

Somewhere in that article LCB mentions Smart Tips for Selecting the Right Online Casinos.
"Quality software will not only deliver top-notch graphics and performances but employ a certified Random Number Generator ensuring fair and honest gameplay."


Who is certifying Random Number Generators and ensuring fair and honest gameplay, how is that done and how often?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
dankron
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April 6th, 2020 at 1:57:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard



8.2. WixiPlay shall not be liable for personal injury or death occurring from the users own negligent use.




This place is such a hoax. You can't shield yourself from personal injury lawsuits by putting a memo self-shielding with any liability. Just like with any defective or dangerous products cases, a manufacturer of defect gaming must be held liable.
Wizard
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April 6th, 2020 at 4:59:14 AM permalink
Quote: dankron

This place is such a hoax. You can't shield yourself from personal injury lawsuits by putting a memo self-shielding with any liability. Just like with any defective or dangerous products cases, a manufacturer of defect gaming must be held liable.



I'm not a lawyer, but how would pressing keys on a keypad and moving a mouse result in personal injury or death anyway?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
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April 6th, 2020 at 7:25:07 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: dankron

This place is such a hoax. You can't shield yourself from personal injury lawsuits by putting a memo self-shielding with any liability. Just like with any defective or dangerous products cases, a manufacturer of defect gaming must be held liable.



I'm not a lawyer, but how would pressing keys on a keypad and moving a mouse result in personal injury or death anyway?



Blaming the gamblers addiction for the broken legs suffered by his loanshark.

Or his suicide after losing everything to wixiplay.

That's my serious guess
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SOOPOO
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April 6th, 2020 at 4:20:59 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: dankron

This place is such a hoax. You can't shield yourself from personal injury lawsuits by putting a memo self-shielding with any liability. Just like with any defective or dangerous products cases, a manufacturer of defect gaming must be held liable.



I'm not a lawyer, but how would pressing keys on a keypad and moving a mouse result in personal injury or death anyway?



I will admit that I injured my shoulder during this lockdown doing a jigsaw puzzle. I was reaching across the table too far....

Fortunately I have fully recovered. I add this to the category of 'it sucks getting old'. The night it happened I could not sleep more than an hour or two straight. Fortunately I fully recovered.

Above is true.... My wife has certainly not finished ribbing me about it....
DRich
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April 6th, 2020 at 5:51:40 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO


I will admit that I injured my shoulder during this lockdown doing a jigsaw puzzle. I was reaching across the table too far....

Fortunately I have fully recovered. I add this to the category of 'it sucks getting old'. The night it happened I could not sleep more than an hour or two straight. Fortunately I fully recovered.

Above is true.... My wife has certainly not finished ribbing me about it....



I admit I hurt my back bending over to unload the dishwasher. I also blame old age.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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April 6th, 2020 at 6:34:33 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I will admit that I injured my shoulder during this lockdown doing a jigsaw puzzle.....



If this happened in Las Vegas, I think Glen Lerner would be happy to file a personal injury lawsuit against the jigsaw puzzle company.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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