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scrooge
scrooge
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ksdjdjAxelWolfmipletOnceDearMrCasinoGamesbeachbumbabsZugaDobrij
February 15th, 2020 at 5:19:36 PM permalink
Summary: sometimes the server_seed_hash doesn't match the server_seed and you always lose those rounds. Which is a shame because I could have beat this casino's loss rebate for five figures an hour if it wasn't rigged.

Before we can define how provable fairness works we first have to define a hash function. A hash function can be any any function such that it's prohibitively expensive computationally to find x and y such that f(x) = f(y), and likewise prohibitively expensive to find x given f(x). But it must be relatively cheap to compute f(x) given x. In this case the hash function f is SHA-256. If f(x) = z we say z is the hash of x.

Provable fairness is supposed to work like this:

1. The server randomly generates a string (server_seed), and sends the hash of it to the client. (server_seed_hash)
2. The client records the server seed hash, and then randomly generates a client_seed and sends it to the server.
3. The server uses a public deterministic formula to determine the outcome of the game. g(server_seed + client_seed) = outcome. Typically g first hashes the input and then converts that string of random bits into a shuffled deck or a random number mod N.
4. After the game, the server reveals the server seed to the client.
5. The client checks that f(server_seed) = server_seed_hash, and g(server_seed + client_seed) = outcome.

If all these steps are followed, f and g are appropriate functions, and both checks in step five succeed, then this individual round of the game is proven fair (but future rounds may or may not be fair). The server can only cheat by doing something that violates the checks in step five:
1. Generate a different server seed after seeing client_seed, to make sure that g(server_seed + client_seed) = losing outcome. Since it is prohibitively expensive to find x and y such that f(x) = f(y), the server won't be able to ensure that it's new seed hashes to the same value as the original seed, so the client will see f(server_seed) != server_seed_hash.
2. Generate the outcome of the game in some other way. So the client will see g(server_seed+client_seed) != outcome.

The server can also cheat undetectably if the client neglects any of his duties in steps 1-5. Sometimes shady sites will avoid sending server_seed_hash except when the client specifically requests it, so that the server knows when it's not being watched and can get away with anything. 999dice used this scam, and wixiplay does the same thing.

The verification of provable fairness can easily be automated. But interfacing between programs and web browsers is ugly and tedious (DM me if you can help with that since my partner who used to do that quit AP to go back to grad school). So I just copied and pasted the values into a script to verify each round manually:

$server_seed_hash = "cf9ae2bb1f4a606e6694ec96ab7eff650edad62fa98296d6cf4af0bfb44e8590";
$client_seed = "nrn5hjdf-0";
$server_seed = "ea8f30b8e3787da64f2fad492c1fe2f8b6301089092794bb5a6ad15974bb63af";
$game_outcome = 4898;

$result_seed = hash_hmac('sha512', $server_seed, $client_seed);
$result_number = hexdec(substr($result_seed,0,10));
$expected_outcome = $result_number % 10001;

echo "\nexpected outcome =", $expected_outcome;

if($expected_outcome==$game_outcome){
echo "\noutcome match";}else{
echo "\noutcome mismatch";}

if($server_seed_hash==hash('sha256',$server_seed)){
echo "\nhash match";}else{
echo "\nhash mismatch";}



I logged the script's output for each round of betting, and, long story short, the step 5 checks passed for the vast majority of game rounds, but on about 10 of the rounds the server_seed_hash didn't match. This means the server violated its pre-committment to using a particular server_seed. The only reason to do that is to change the outcome of the game to make it more unfavorable to the player. I always lost every round where the server_seed_hash didn't match.

I also played a lot of unverified rounds (where I didn't check PF). Out of 523 coin flips that each ostensibly had a 49.5% chance of success, only 199 succeeded. This has a binomial probability of 8.9696e-8. So I surmise that the casino cheats undetectably a lot on the 99% of customers who never request the server_seed_hash, and then has the backup plan of cheating overtly in the way described in the previous paragraph.

I made a second account and gradually ramped up my betting for further testing purposes. It eventually cheated by changing the server seed, and the timing of the first and second cheatings exactly coincided with wagers where I would have gone from being a lifetime net loser to being a lifetime net winner if I had won.

I waited a while before posting this just to make very very sure that it was rigged and worthless. If it wasn't rigged I could have crushed their loss rebate. It looks like a perfect storm on paper, if only it would take the action and not cheat:
* 25% back on every lost deposit an unlimited number of times per day, unlimited size
* no wagering requirement
* instant 0-conf deposits
* configurable-variance dice with a lower house edge than single zero roulette.
* enormous max bet

It sounded too good to be true, and it was.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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Joined: Oct 14, 2009
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MintyMrCasinoGamesZuga
February 15th, 2020 at 7:35:28 PM permalink
Thank you Scrooge for posting this. I hope you mind me saying that this was discussed off the forum and I encouraged you post about it.

I take all accusations of Internet cheating very seriously. What I hope to do is personally verify this myself. I also plan to try to dumb this down a bit and put what happened into more plain simple English for people who don't know anything about encryption.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Joined: Oct 10, 2012
February 16th, 2020 at 1:51:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thank you Scrooge for posting this. I hope you mind me saying that this was discussed off the forum and I encouraged you post about it.

I take all accusations of Internet cheating very seriously. What I hope to do is personally verify this myself. I also plan to try to dumb this down a bit and put what happened into more plain simple English for people who don't know anything about encryption.

I have a a lot of interest in the subject, so, I too encouraged posting about this. I have tried to start a conversation and ask question regarding provably fair casinos, but there didn't seem to be much interest about the topic. Perhaps very few people have the knowledge to discuss exactly how it works, or the people that do have very little interest in online gambling. There was just some general information about how it worked. I mean there is a general understanding that they could still cheat but nobody really explained how they could cheat and how we could detect it.

This is probably a situation where there's quite a few Advantage Players who play online but they just go with what they already know and keep that to themselves.

Scrooge seems to know significantly more about this than anyone I've come across so far(thanks for the information/ education).
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
heatmap
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Joined: Feb 12, 2018
February 16th, 2020 at 9:45:35 AM permalink
"Wixiplay.io is rigged | one in ten million session | fake PF
December 21, 2019, 12:46:06 AM"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5211370.0

Quote: I just played 523 coin flips (49.5% chance of success with a 1% house edge). Only won 199 of them. The probability of winning 199 or fewer out of 523 is 8.9696e-8, or about one in ten million.

Their provably fair system doesn't work because they only show the server seed hash, but they never reveal the server seed of past rounds, so there is no way to do the calculation to verify that those rounds were fair.

They say the algorithm is:

Quote
$client_seed = "your_client_seed";
$server_seed = "your_server_seed";

$result_seed = hash_hmac('sha512', $server_seed, $client_seed);
$result_number = hexdec(substr($result_seed,0,10));
$lucky_number = $result_number % 10001;

echo $lucky_number;

But this is all they show you in the fairness dialog.
https://i.ibb.co/1KDN8s5/wixi-fairness.png

It never shows the server seed for the previous round, so you can't check the fairness. This is a fake PF system.

I recommend avoiding the site until they fix their PF.

someone elses quote who replied



Quote: But then it hit me!


They can actually check if you're going through the impractical ceremony on not! I verified this by checking the network requests, and AFAICT the only way to view the server-seed hash is via a network request to "/ajax/modal" with "modal=fairness".

So this means they can actually if you're verifying the bets or not. So they could trivially cheat only when they know you won't be able to tell (when you never requested the server-seed hash).

scrooge
scrooge
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heatmap
February 16th, 2020 at 10:19:17 AM permalink
Somebody on that thread figured out that the way to see the server seed after a round was click on the "my bets" tab and then double click on the bet in the bet history. Most sites would just show the previous round server_seed in the fairness dialog (same place you see next round's server_seed_hash). And on most sites the fairness dialog wouldn't make a separate network request to notify the server that it's being watched.
scrooge
scrooge
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Joined: Nov 22, 2016
February 18th, 2020 at 2:03:10 PM permalink
So I went over today to demonstrate it to wizard. The cashback was gone and it didn't cheat in any of the rounds I played today. Possible reasons:
1. Variance. It only cheats some of the time and we didn't play a huge number of rounds. Without cashback it's not worthwhile to continue the testing..
2. Damage control. Maybe the site owner saw this thread and decided to get rid of the cashback and stop cheating at the same time.
3. Other APs might have found a loophole and burned it down in 2 days.

Here are my logs from Feb 9 until Feb 15 (like an hour before I posted this thread). It's all the inputs and all the outputs to my php script (source code in OP). Plus notes on deposit size / bet size. The two bets near the end with the hash mismatch are the ones where they cheated.


New account comes with 50 satoshis, so I start betting 1 satoshi for testing.
minbet on 2x
$server_seed_hash = "404f8199841a1830274ff7335ab842a9aff058f613a12531e332ebf5c37267a9";
$client_seed = "8ISz6oRYtelj1kJ9-0";
$server_seed = "b66f057944fed63c653089a3f6651059a0c45b1911a9ed7595483f8bd5141735";
$game_outcome = 6838;
expected outcome =6838
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "54adbf5590e37dccec524c9a010d653ca12c1acd7ba8efe2955a48432916dd48";
$client_seed = "cnyaskfzy4s6a1f7-0";
$server_seed = "6c9a1b2134fd2b9592ebb2adb46b70cd82530bcb422a687e02b2cf9d2f1fb4ba";
$game_outcome = 8546;
expected outcome =8546
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "e22bfb707768cecbdf94bd87962fb525ba10ace20feca0a5b2266a4917448846";
$client_seed = "cvhn56hbhg-0";
$server_seed = "263fb461f3faff4bb7dd5980cb91e4f1c91e4a6e5cb55aee35393688d5097502";
$game_outcome = 5674;
expected outcome =5674
outcome match
hash match

switch to minbet 10x
$server_seed_hash = "e911586d17dab4274c5cc0b1afbce27c95928b4e209c19424a726134cbb20187";
$client_seed = "vvnj6njyn-0";
$server_seed = "082f13e2feaea948568e8d5746c5e9d68ec29c57abd4d79894b03c94af974231";
$game_outcome = 4916;
expected outcome =4916
outcome match
hash match

double bet
$server_seed_hash = "0a4c42886ae5b0df52ee7a9045107c7649442e94c68940214c5726c85b2794c0";
$client_seed = "cvdvmkjrtn6-0";
$server_seed = "11b72e872c99561288483dd6ee7563d96c076f669f048ae8b295ea0b6b9dbb47";
$game_outcome = 3822;
expected outcome =3822
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "07e3d6cac23281d69cfca924e4685bc403be88acfabda4ada0e7bf4bea537fde";
$client_seed = "fdsdjfnjg-0";
$server_seed = "94457b39ba65f60c1667d23c2d8514718df94ceeedadf9467cda87e32575138b";
$game_outcome = 4993;
expected outcome =4993
outcome match
hash match

max bet on 1.1x
$server_seed_hash = "24f04748486f3469b16ddd6d170a0d4652f4b9cf97bb11ef1f54c14ceeeb50bc";
$client_seed = "vnfjny77di-0";
$server_seed = "57077d4337cf42da03278fa72cd69bc7d1bdf942d8e19c56fb000986e8cb95ce";
$game_outcome = 9842;
expected outcome =9842
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "733108bf1004562868ea39b67499d3965604c1efb1ec36074deb1a20a7304f32";
$client_seed = "vnvj6yjn6-0";
$server_seed = "89e007fc6983dcbba825ddfe280926c5d43d0bfcdd2d9270c0f037d08dcd155d";
$game_outcome = 7480;
expected outcome =7480
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "39719930f93e24ee79c94e2cf8fc63038d779453cde809b71ad3358f8d6995cc";
$client_seed = "vnvjnydcu-0";
$server_seed = "dab7293a191e37dbd4bd9b491cc4ac123babf8b2f82fa6c59eb27df3d48c8c07";
$game_outcome = 408;
expected outcome =408
outcome match
hash match

deposit bonus 10mbtc 200%
1mbtc 2x
$server_seed_hash = "52b78b7c2c94c4ef71fc1ccdf727ef5f1aa28d7f0576f5438ca1a5d6a7a018ae";
$client_seed = "bn6nrbn7d-0";
$server_seed = "aa4b50a06dfc20b061dd97b2a144e10dd24112ac10f947cdcb40256399cad220";
$game_outcome = 2905;
expected outcome =2905
outcome match
hash match

29mbtc all in
$server_seed_hash = "6fe500273a101d0212c16d00a25d2e48930a39d10cb78f61cd7ce8fbd2ace670";
$client_seed = "vn7xkh4s-0";
$server_seed = "ac98a1123ceee28b875016eb1ed0c4d255ad372acd68b7ead083d4f1d5506a67";
$game_outcome = 1401;
expected outcome =1401
outcome match
hash match

new 16mbtc deposit for loss rebate
8mbtc bet on 2x
$server_seed_hash = "4b0043287a1910814c166f1d56944687febed1eb141ac38cd6480042d4e875c3";
$client_seed = "vhn6hdj7g-0";
$server_seed = "a11e24f034ab448beba9129b39ea33799608e0697e65c351cafc08d6aee9192e";
$game_outcome = 7244;
expected outcome =7244
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "80180929eb056bf66c77eea1cd8080e9325a666e07f289af3026cf93ec5d220d";
$client_seed = "cnth6hbc7-0";
$server_seed = "51b5e7d71ee8e8886c1fc151def3878485d0a11f3b89590c3b0c786c727a1700";
$game_outcome = 1893;
expected outcome =1893
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "dfa3e852d832c528fbcdf7b7a12f70b39b8ca9040d8988046bf05b304db0ee15";
$client_seed = "cdnjcvnrt-0";
$server_seed = "ba70bfb33e8923a903c64fa171f0fc360cd23a9c353946527d8adcaad3468600";
$game_outcome = 6998;
expected outcome =6998
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "a08bb6bd829628b2d724c194844b017b55b42ba2a1f49330aa2e30e38c1aa987";
$client_seed = "shdjht6ca-0";
$server_seed = "20502abf10c024865474f636c9deca6dc2e2f9beb14edb92f3c20177cff561bc";
$game_outcome = 4350;
expected outcome =4350
outcome match
hash match

doubled bet (all in)
$server_seed_hash = "f7f78cbfb2133db5c5cc7e5bd43cea2f0fb815d3c7b8a2731f0952a130fa3b96";
$client_seed = "fdjfhjr5t5-0";
$server_seed = "614b57c4def0b4a6ceaf1bc7ec3f6212c183ceb313ea4228b9d6c03c73aec67c";
$game_outcome = 938;
expected outcome =938
outcome match
hash match

new deposit 12mbtc
1mbtc bet test
$server_seed_hash = "e37bf4991055d02ecf9d3a905f9f2f6f72060c9c9229a527df3006376cf50f4f";
$client_seed = "fbn6xk72d-0";
$server_seed = "d73f1804eabc18e9e6219742c50b72718e89bea4d5d0cc5b880cf975b9e72e3f";
$game_outcome = 2064;
expected outcome =2064
outcome match
hash match

allin
$server_seed_hash = "1c113d6374b2cba63ceacd209e16098359ea1711dcc2a6599a28060f9ba34d2b";
$client_seed = "vbn6nsdj-0";
$server_seed = "5d7dbc90acec66d4054704599abc16040160fc2e4b021527cfe14c7626d11294";
$game_outcome = 645;
expected outcome =645
outcome match
hash match

new deposit 12mbtc
6mbtc on 3x
$server_seed_hash = "73ba646973b6a9b8dbadce38eda2515be7fcc5e9f984e15378b183cd9ababaca";
$client_seed = "djh5hsjy-0";
$server_seed = "9cfef4a70af82ae77991b14a517002b5611caf330c4203d3c1cc8f0392d22b89";
$game_outcome = 5722;
expected outcome =5722
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "5328f55ccb499bdd949536e0e784aab38ff701c13377841e3d1c7330b9688fa6";
$client_seed = "cthh6hf6s-0";
$server_seed = "d00972dcbccea1de084b19894d81e05c041795c8a24c8cdbba5b2ca5c0b5d12b";
$game_outcome = 1419;
expected outcome =1419
outcome match
hash match

0.2mbtc remaining allin
$server_seed_hash = "9cf38de761d90dc0c1687e6637d533d78dd0b4b6f7d3a251b141ae5070ac47f3";
$client_seed = "cvnrtnhjt-0";
$server_seed = "e8628298ca62c01462ffc48ed922abc98adcfd024e36017bedfeaa6f8b5558a0";
$game_outcome = 5516;
expected outcome =5516
outcome match
hash match

12mbtc deposit 6mbtc 3x
$server_seed_hash = "8c54cb9a2b98a23f4b2b429ea0847190f47b21bf85e24a49196776c61a5c5fb2";
$client_seed = "fdfj6jhhds-0";
$server_seed = "3c443d18f3d15bd4952b2994af5bf85e7dac3c25dc31ee97fedde4f0069494f7";
$game_outcome = 9409;
expected outcome =9409
outcome match
hash match

next day 12mbtc deposit
6mbtc 3x
$server_seed_hash = "c00871e1dc94d87acea84a9edaa5ec4ae0c6bd445a62235572ae169fd55bd0fe";
$client_seed = "fhjdfhj5d5-0";
$server_seed = "8951a27521a0429108f359fc6905fa2456ced7ca528393d445a419342c36dacc";
$game_outcome = 6655;
expected outcome =6655
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "650c662fc93437da7ec2be3efb7ff916b07b44f137afadbd0b186de89461eb2d";
$client_seed = "shircy2df2-0";
$server_seed = "6c6daa0f0910a3e195412827ef7c5c0951b25d60a5bb7a1f4214801ae9741128";
$game_outcome = 5833;
expected outcome =5833
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "3288caa270627c3e656f107944b4154f7219793f672c596e0ecd5df4074c8a63";
$client_seed = "fnfjrtnfs3d-0";
$server_seed = "d354e7b97f5b940926732009cdf84e27e9a316a4f49565c9cb048744953752a6";
$game_outcome = 5800;
expected outcome =5800
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "a9534489ac8253f18cd4b17a8d85c3d84c07c6ce020b2118a22b970d1b3700e1";
$client_seed = "dh8rhtkj24-0";
$server_seed = "b7b27512c77f16c3d4e5eac7a1bec0624064a59b460921bb9b134989ba74d593";
$game_outcome = 5251;
expected outcome =5251
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "f53430353e61f59893316b99d23de20b37d2fd48b16e9d126eae4ee565bb4325";
$client_seed = "f45hhdhj6d-0";
$server_seed = "87d7edd3bb3afa9e07a10efe579259c4d8144c7bb76699c09ee1424f50963130";
$game_outcome = 281;
expected outcome =281
outcome match
hash match

24mbtc deposit bet 12mbtc on 3x
$server_seed_hash = "57b4e603fb7f917a8b9a10c5f88052fb0d94cc9a20f4f3a89bd2eb7647413d6f";
$client_seed = "dfdfhhjh4h6-0";
$server_seed = "c5fd0076e40b29fe7c91de6ae81f073ee8acaecb3eb70824ba28e6a343fe11bd";
$game_outcome = 6766;
expected outcome =6766
outcome match
hash match

24mbtc deposit bet 12mbtc on 3x
winning this bet would have made me a lifetime net winner
FIRST CHEAT
$server_seed_hash = "7fa87776eea5d554bd2209f03d7a3a4cef132c8bd2fb9c57fca58f273f7431a3";
$client_seed = "db6yhjdjsd-0";
$server_seed = "76e3853e6335f4409cee59b0c1161cf0ff8121cdf3af6b0ef7dfa239570022cbrUL35gKjVB";
$game_outcome = 3214;
expected outcome =3214
outcome match
hash mismatch

bet 12mbtc on 2.33x (just below threshold to be lifetime net winner if i win)
$server_seed_hash = "096207b9bed2fa025f53618e20db99d7ba98138117f4753303284ff63202e17f";
$client_seed = "fdfhj45hjhd5-0";
$server_seed = "2c08c682a500c28c7b77fbd2fa08432f87dce06b3016e97eb9115363531d4519";
$game_outcome = 9425;
expected outcome =9425
outcome match
hash match

bet 1mbtc on 2x (if I win i'm a lifetime net winner)
$server_seed_hash = "2b86579253a59143b4856e59cb256fa20db3435dc759daa63ff8533d5ea6eab3";
$client_seed = "aj4jdh6dj6fd-0";
$server_seed = "4c188154a337d25eb9dd93fd6e140c97e5300202a05dca6f9ea9ae278a0f6a39woxA3nyJEi";
$game_outcome = 1682;
expected outcome =1682
outcome match
hash mismatch

repeat bet (now if I win I'm only lifetime breakeven)
$server_seed_hash = "ff60b13ceedd55f1a0c3f11915291711f42465daaa67f8b33c1bff463712e2cc";
$client_seed = "dfhdjktd4-0";
$server_seed = "08d54bee7e702ee78faaeb30ba81e3f006056b06690685afe2349925cd53f957";
$game_outcome = 6869;
expected outcome =6869
outcome match
hash match

repeat bet (now if I win i'm a lifetime net winner)
$server_seed_hash = "fdc969a49edaa1e8f056cb4c1f71f07d3f8af29da856e07ac59c7013f1ee69b4";
$client_seed = "sdfj6hd5-0";
$server_seed = "f4d723d78b1e0f810fcab6c91aefade237cc7d0244051433b5071c0cf3db6b0a";
$game_outcome = 1042;
expected outcome =1042
outcome match
hash match

repeat bet (now if I win I'm only lifetime breakeven)
$server_seed_hash = "8fffd66779568139737b063790bd05e293e8028987694caf010dfdda1340b84b";
$client_seed = "fghnfh6d-0";
$server_seed = "2e8f708c69e28899c296f53f99c9b689b7e9dd2c9544522edfe59aedbadbba1e";
$game_outcome = 9214;
expected outcome =9214
outcome match
hash match

repeat bet (now if I win i'm a lifetime net winner)
$server_seed_hash = "6cceaeda0deb2c4b95e29145557065302150985dd9226d0da983d4ef61dee00a";
$client_seed = "dj5sk6sd-0";
$server_seed = "71f42dcef72cde7689c500c16ccf335d329df42c98353b5fe88430440893a310";
$game_outcome = 9320;
expected outcome =9320
outcome match
hash match

repeat bet (now i'm a lifetime net winner)
$server_seed_hash = "0b8eadecbc6310c9fabdb7505c7b9caa2d422b96827f4dfa50ee8c83e79192c2";
$client_seed = "d9jjdk6d-0";
$server_seed = "825b5814191ac38349c917778baa98571175a2624332c8d5031bea3a19db43b8";
$game_outcome = 3856;
expected outcome =3856
outcome match
hash match

repeat bet (now if I win i'm a lifetime net winner)
$server_seed_hash = "279baa9fdf39543f31266c5270d6b1dd3e4e60bcc55d7e2f0a601826cd45512e";
$client_seed = "dsjfd6kd-0";
$server_seed = "75e37022065a066f57d5c84fa169f0692624efb55695fdf592e21b28ba8e3701";
$game_outcome = 1878;
expected outcome =1878
outcome match
hash match

$server_seed_hash = "cf9ae2bb1f4a606e6694ec96ab7eff650edad62fa98296d6cf4af0bfb44e8590";
$client_seed = "nrn5hjdf-0";
$server_seed = "ea8f30b8e3787da64f2fad492c1fe2f8b6301089092794bb5a6ad15974bb63af";
$game_outcome = 4898;
expected outcome =4898
outcome match
hash match
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Feb 20, 2020
heatmap
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February 18th, 2020 at 3:15:42 PM permalink
Lets be real they had a nuke button from day one the moment they programmed it. Its probably just sitting there waiting to be switched back on.
Wizard
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February 20th, 2020 at 12:09:01 PM permalink
It's time for an update.

Yesterday I witnessed Scrooge playing and I can confirm that was not playing fairly.

To understand how "guaranteed fair gaming" is supposed to work and how to tell when it isn't, I had to get up to speed on how cryptography is used to guarantee the outcome of a bet is determined before the player makes the bet. To not hijack this thread, I created a thread about it titled GUARANTEED FAIR GAMING FOR DUMMIES.

The bottom line is the hash reported by the casino after some losing bets did not match the input that went into determining the outcome. In plain English, what I assume the casino is doing is on some kind of basis, not all the time, the casino will chose a seed that leads to a losing outcome. The hash of the this cherry-picked seed will not match the hash given before the bet was made.

What is strange is that it is fairly easy to check for this. However, the player does have to make several clicks and a few copy and pastes per bet. Based on other information I will let Scrooge elaborate on, I speculate the non-fair play is a function of:

1. Whether the player clicks to check the hash of a bet.
2. How much the player is winning.
3. How much in bonuses the player has received relative to his play.
4. IP address of player computer.

Yesterday I gave Wixiplay 48 hours to make statement in their defense. No reply yet.

Questions or comments?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heatmap
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February 20th, 2020 at 5:41:30 PM permalink
From their FAQ

Quote:

What is WixiCoin? WixiCoin is a build-in free coin, which can be used to play games for practice. Currently, you can claim WixiCoin using the faucet. Notice, your WixiCoin balance must be zero in order to claim it from Zero Balance Faucetq



Also not a single "gaming authority" logo or "tested by so-n-so"

I would just say this is a shining example of what is possible from ANY online casino. You cant see how they are exactly generating the "random" numbers, and there is most likely more than just those 4 factors that produce the results.

I quoted that from the FAQ because there website is filled with spelling and grammatical errors. I'm horrible at those things too. But I feel like just looking at this site at a quick glace, it throws up a lot of red flags in general and I wouldn't play it.

Why do they have their own "coins" is my question.
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February 20th, 2020 at 7:15:09 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I would just say this is a shining example of what is possible from ANY online casino. You cant see how they are exactly generating the "random" numbers, and there is most likely more than just those 4 factors that produce the results.



How random numbers are drawn is not the issue. I assume they can draw them just fine. I don't want to go through a lesson on cryptography again, but they are simply not telling the truth and hoping nobody checks the codes.

Quote:

I quoted that from the FAQ because there website is filled with spelling and grammatical errors.



Can you provide some examples? It looked okay to me, but I'm more of a math guy.

Quote:

Why do they have their own "coins" is my question.



I think that is part of their reward program. I don't know much about it.

I've been playing myself with my own Bitcoin and every bet is directly in Bitcoin. So far, I must say, I've received a fair game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heatmap
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February 20th, 2020 at 7:41:25 PM permalink
They wrote "build-in" in my example.

https://whichiscorrect.com/build-in-vs-built-in/

By generate I mean exactly what you mean when you say there are winning and losing results generated by the call to a function.
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February 21st, 2020 at 6:50:59 AM permalink
Following is my fairness testing code, mostly for my own copy-and-paste benefit:

<?php
$server_seed_hash_before="9edd38e2fe5aa11e73321c24eb82feb7343af4ac9a4077acad03427e2d468721";
$client_seed = "gz74kwtyba-0";
$server_seed = "e60f5de40ed76a4921761e42c2dbb07558d00a9c21bae00bbb3d2275a8425e44";
$server_seed_hash_after=hash('sha256',$server_seed);

$result_seed = hash_hmac('sha512', $server_seed, $client_seed);
$result_number = hexdec(substr($result_seed,0,10));
$lucky_number = $result_number % 10001;
echo "Expected outcome=\t", $lucky_number, "\n";

if ($server_seed_hash_before==$server_seed_hash_after)
{ echo "Hash match"; }
else
{ echo "Hash mismatch"; }
?>


PHP Sandbox
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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February 24th, 2020 at 1:50:21 PM permalink
As I've mentioned before, I've been trying to independently verify the cheating. So far, I've been getting a fair game. However, I have been waiting almost a day on my last withdrawal. I'm not sure if it's in Bitcoin limbo or the casino just hasn't initiated the transaction yet. I tend to suspect the latter.

It may be that they are in a phase of a casino in trouble that accepts deposits but drags its feat or doesn't process withdrawals at all.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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February 25th, 2020 at 6:46:06 AM permalink
It's been a day and a half and my Bitcoin withdrawal has still not been processed.

Here is what one reads on the screen to sign up for an account.

Quote: Wixiplay


FreePlay - Welcome Bonus
Deposit Bonus 50% - 100% - 200%
Instant deposits & withdrawals
25% Cashback
Provably fair
1% House edge
Over 1 Billion bets
Chat games
Attractive affiliation program



Note: Emphasis mine.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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February 25th, 2020 at 5:37:54 PM permalink
Here is a preview of my video showing Wixiplay cheating. It is in private mode, so not public yet. I welcome all comments, as I can still edit it.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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February 25th, 2020 at 6:53:52 PM permalink
The opening scroll is too fast. I can't even finish the second paragraph, although I suppose people can pause it.

Also, just in case the manure hits the fan, I hope you have more than one example documented.

[Heh. I'm sensing an opening monologue live stream rant coming. They always liven up the chat room.]
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
scrooge
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February 25th, 2020 at 7:22:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is a preview of my video showing Wixiplay cheating. It is in private mode, so not public yet. I welcome all comments, as I can still edit it.



Just typos. Seems ok.
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February 25th, 2020 at 7:49:27 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

The opening scroll is too fast. I can't even finish the second paragraph, although I suppose people can pause it.



I can't make it last longer than 30 seconds. Yes, I was thinking that the audience who cared could just pause it.

Quote:

Also, just in case the manure hits the fan, I hope you have more than one example documented.

[Heh. I'm sensing an opening monologue live stream rant coming. They always liven up the chat room.]



I will address the big picture soon. Shall I say I've tried to document more cases, but they have frozen my withdrawal of 0.09 Bitcoin so now non-payment is another reason to blacklist. This should all go to a wider audience on Thursday, which is coincidentally Live Stream day.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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February 26th, 2020 at 1:39:13 AM permalink
Here is hopefully the last version.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rainman
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February 26th, 2020 at 10:42:54 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is hopefully the last version.



Link doesn't work.

Did you take a bonus?

Did you have any successful withdrawals or were you screwed from
your first attempt?
OnceDear
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February 26th, 2020 at 11:13:44 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is hopefully the last version.

Mike, we get

"null
If the owner of this video has granted you access, please sign in."
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
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February 26th, 2020 at 5:16:23 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Link doesn't work.



Thanks. Please try again: https://youtu.be/DpworhQV4bY



Quote:

Did you take a bonus?



No

Quote:

Did you have any successful withdrawals or were you screwed from
your first attempt?



Yes, I had two successful withdrawals. The third was in limbo for a while and then reversed back to my account for unknown reasons. The fourth just says "processed," but there is no entry at Blockchain.com.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
scrooge
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February 26th, 2020 at 6:53:46 PM permalink
Looks good to me.
AxelWolf
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February 26th, 2020 at 7:58:23 PM permalink
We can spread the word.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPqFTjYj4fcvQ4Q9K81J4PA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2mwlnRwxuo

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5089271.0

https://twitter.com/WixiPlay?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://www.facebook.com/WixiPlay/

https://cryptwerk.com/company/wixiplay/

https://cryptotalk.org/topic/22724-wixiplayio-25-cashback-dice-keno-06-btc-wagering-contests%E2%AD%90provabl

https://lcb.org/
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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February 26th, 2020 at 8:24:22 PM permalink
Sorry, but I have taken down the last video and replaced it with this voice-over style video. Hopefully this will be the last one and I can move onto new topics.



Direct: https://youtu.be/8OXjKcheAug
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
scrooge
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February 26th, 2020 at 10:32:56 PM permalink
looks good
scrooge
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February 28th, 2020 at 1:58:14 AM permalink
I simplified the code a bit.


$server_seed_hash = "cf9ae2bb1f4a606e6694ec96ab7eff650edad62fa98296d6cf4af0bfb44e8590";
$client_seed = "nrn5hjdf-0";
$server_seed = "ea8f30b8e3787da64f2fad492c1fe2f8b6301089092794bb5a6ad15974bb63af";

$combined = hash_hmac('sha512', $server_seed, $client_seed);
$expected_outcome = hexdec(substr($combined,0,10)) % 10001;

echo "\nexpected outcome =", $expected_outcome;

if($server_seed_hash==hash('sha256',$server_seed)){
echo "\nhash match";}else{
echo "\nhash mismatch";}
scrooge
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February 28th, 2020 at 11:00:26 PM permalink
FWIW they also stole my latest withdrawal. So just in case isn't wasn't rigged enough to beat every player, they'll also refuse to pay winners.
Wizard
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February 29th, 2020 at 3:22:43 AM permalink
Quote: scrooge

FWIW they also stole my latest withdrawal. So just in case isn't wasn't rigged enough to beat every player, they'll also refuse to pay winners.



I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you for all your help with this and taking this hit in the fight for fair and honest gaming.

In other news, here is the Wixiplay response to my video.

Here is my reply to that:

It is true that Scrooge played from my house in the first attempt to document the cheating. As I recall, he played on a new account, which did not get cheated at the time. However, more established accounts played from his IP address still continued to get cheated, thus the second attempt at his home. This did not break any of their very predatory terms and conditions. The closest to apply to that situation is:

14.2 Having more than 1 account is strictly FORBIDDEN. All your accounts will be banned without notice.

There is no rule against two different people playing from the same IP address.

As to the resolution of the cheating bet, they have a point there. The original is much clearer, but by the time it went through my video editing software and then squeezed down to YouTube dimensions, it suffered. I will attempt to make another video with a real camera that doesn't sacrifice so much on the resolution.

I'd like to document their full T&C, as of Feb 29 (leap day!) 2019.


We give up to 200% bonus deposit to each player. You can increase your balance, expand gambling opportunities and make more profit !
Terms and Conditions
The following user agreement hereby referred to as the Agreement, is to be read in its entirety prior to the use of WixiPlay's products and services. The agreement constitutes a legal binding between the user and WixiPlay all services found on the web domain www.wixiplay.

By clicking "PLAY" where provided, the user consents to all terms and conditions set forth in the Agreement.

1. GRANT OF LICENCE

1.1. Subject to the terms and conditions set forth in the Agreement, WixiPlay grants trademarks and any service mark used by the service

1.2. The products and service provided by WixiPlay are not for use by (i) users under the age of 18 years, (ii) users under the legally designated age of majority in their jurisdiction, (iii) any user accessing the service in a jurisdiction where the service is deemed illegal. It is the user entire responsibility to ensure that their use of the service is lawful.

1.3. WixiPlay and its licensers are the sole holders of all rights to the service, Code, structure, and organization not excluding copyright, intellectual property and any other rights that compose the service. The user may not, within the limits prescribed by the governing laws: (i) copy, publish, distribute, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or modify the website in any way; (ii) use the service provided in any way that defies the governing law, each of the actions stated above is deemed unauthorized use. WixiPlay reserves all rights implied and stated title, and interest to the service.

1.4. WixiPlay is the sole proprietor of the term "WixiPlay", its domains, the user personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable rights to the use of the service provided by wixiplay on any personal device able to access the Internet. Under the age of 18 years, (ii) users under the legally designated age of majority in their jurisdiction, (iii) any user accessing the service in a jurisdiction where the service is deemed illegal. It is the userís entire responsibility to ensure that their use of the service is lawful. Code, structure, and organization not excluding copyright, intellectual property and any other rights that compose the service. The user may not, within the limits prescribed by the governing laws: (i) copy, publish, distribute, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or modify the website in any way; (ii) use the service provided in any way that defies the governing law, each of the actions stated above is deemed unauthorized use. WixiPlay reserves all rights implied and stated title, and interest to the service. The user agrees to be solely responsible for any damages, costs, and expenses that arise from any unauthorized use. The user also agrees to notify and provide reasonable assistance to WixiPlay if they become aware of any unauthorized use committed by other users. Trademarks and any service mark used by the service. In addition, all site content (including, images, photographs, graphics, animations, videos, audio components and text) is owned by WixiPlay and is protected by copyright and any other intellectual property law. The user hereby acknowledges that in no way does the use of the service procure them any rights to any part of the website content and trademarks. Under no circumstance shall the user utilize the website content or trademarks without WixiPlayís prior written consent. In addition, the user agrees to not pursue any action that may potentially result in harm to WixiPlay's rights.



2. NO WARRANTIES

2.1. WixiPlay AND ITS LICENCERS DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES STATED OR IMPLIED. THE SERVICES ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" AND PROVIDE THE USER WITH NO WARRANTY OR REPRESENTATION REGARDING THE QUALITY, FITNESS, ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS OF THE SERVICE.

2.2. WixiPlay MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, ERROR-FREE OR THAT DEFECTS WILL BE CORRECTED.

3. TERMS OF SERVICE

The user agrees to abide by all game rules designated by wixiplay. The website retains all authority over issuing, maintenance, and termination of the service. Any decision made by WixiPlay in regards to use or dispute resolution is final and is not subject to any review or appeal.

4. USERS REPRESENTATION AND WARRANTIES

Prior to use of WixiPlay's service, and during any time the service is utilized, the user represents, warrants, and agrees to the following terms:

4.1. The user is aware of the risks associated with the use of the service, including the loss of any cryptocurrency. In no way shall WixiPlay be held responsible for such consequences.

4.2. The use of the service is at the user's own discretion and risk.

4.3. The user is liable for any taxes that may be added to any cryptocurrency awarded by WixiPlay.

4.4. The necessary services for the use of WixiPlay including any telecommunication or internet device are to be provided by the user. WixiPlay is not to be held accountable for any malfunction that is associated with such devices.

4.5. The user is above 18 years of age and not currently prohibited from any gambling site or premise. The user agrees to provide WixiPlay with immediate notification if the user enters into a self-exclusion contract with any gambling service provider.

4.6. WixiPlay uses the Provably fair tools to verify the absence of deceit in the proposed games.

This tool is described and available for the user on the address: Provably fair

By signing the terms and present conditions, the user acknowledge the efficiency of the method used by WixiPlay and makes a commitment not to dispute the results in trial or arbitration.

5. PRIVACY POLICY

You hereby acknowledge and accept that we need to collect and use your personal information in order to grant you access to use the website and participate in games and services.

Your personal information and privacy shall be protected and respected, and treated in accordance with relevant laws. WixiPlay will not disclose your personal information to any third parties, unless required by law or if it is necessary for your participation in Games or Services.

Your personal information will be kept by us, and only destroyed when required by law or if the information is no longer required for the originally intended purposes.

Our administrators shall also have access to your personal information in their professional capacity in order to assist you with your request.

In order to make your visit to the website more user-friendly, to keep track of visits to the website and to improve the service, WixiPlay collects cookies (small text files containing information about your computer). You may disable cookies in your browser settings , if you wish. We reserve the right to use a Playerís nickname in any announcement about promotion results. Your personal information may be also used to inform you in case of news, changes, new services and promotions that may interest you. If you wish to unsubscribe from such direct marketing, you may contact Customer Support.

6. PROHIBITED USE

6.1. WixiPlay is intended for the user's personal use. The user is forbidden to wager for any other reason than their own personal entertainment.

6.2. Restricted and allowed countries

The following restrictions and regulations are applied :

Blacklisted Territories: Netherlands, Curacao, Dutch Caribbean Islands, France, USA

Please note that it is forbidden to play all WixiPlay's games in blacklisted countries mentioned.

6.3. The user guarantees WixiPlay that funds used for services were acquired regularly and that he is the sole beneficial owner

6.4. WixiPlay reserves the right to block or to cancel any transaction or profiles which would be realized in a prohibited way

7. BREACH

7.1. In the event that the user commits a partial or whole breach in any provision contained in the agreement, WixiPlay reserves the right to carry out any action deemed fit, including termination of the current or past agreements with the user, or taking legal action again the user.

7.2. WixiPlay, its shareholders, directors, agents and employees shall not be held accountable for any claims, demands, liabilities, damages, losses, costs and expenses non-excluding legal fees and other charges that may occur as a result of: (i) the userís breach in whole or in part of the agreement, (ii) the user's violation of any law or third party rights, (iii) use of the service.

8. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY

8.1. WixiPlay shall not, under any circumstance be liable for any special, incidental, direct, indirect or consequential damages not excluding negligence that may arise by use of the service. These damages include but are not limited to; loss of business profits, information, interruption or financial losses. WixiPlay shall not be held accountable even if WixiPlay has prior knowledge of the possibility of occurrence of such damages.

8.2. WixiPlay shall not be liable for personal injury or death occurring from the users own negligent use.

9. DISPUTES AND COMPLAINTS

If you have a complaint related to WixiPlay's activities, please contact our Customer Support via email at support@wixiplay. If any dispute is not resolved to satisfaction, the user may utilize any remedies prescribed by law in the jurisdiction of Curacao.

10. AMENDMENT

At any time, WixiPlay reserves the sole right to revise or modify the current agreement and the user will be bound to any such change. Therefore, WixiPlay encourages the user to review the terms and conditions periodically. Continued use of the service provided will attest to the agreement to any amendments set forth by the agreement.

11. SEVERABILITY

If at any time a clause in this agreement becomes illegal or null in any jurisdiction the validity or enforcement of this agreement shall not be affected in such jurisdiction.

12. ASSIGNEMENT

At any time, without prior notice, we, WixiPlay reserve the right to assign this agreement in entirety or in part. The user voids the right to assign his obligations and rights cited in the agreement.

13. MISCELLANEOUS

13.1. No breach, under any circumstance, of any provision set forth in this agreement shall be in any way construed as a relinquishment of any provision of the agreement; including failure to require strict performance and compliance to any clause in the agreement introduced by WixiPlay.

13.2. No clause in the agreement shall grant or create any rights or gains in favor of any third parties not part of the agreement other than WixiPlay.

13.3. No clause in the agreement shall be deemed reason to initiate partnership, agency, trust arrangement, fiduciary or joint relationship between WixiPlay and the user.

13.4. The agreement constitutes a whole understanding and compliance between the user and WixiPlay regarding the service. This agreement supersedes any prior agreement, understanding or arrangement between the user and WixiPlay.

14. RULES FOR ALL USERS

Since some users tend to take advantage of our system, the following rules must be followed by all users:

14.1. Making Double Spend is FORBIDDEN. Your account will be banned without notice

14.2. Having more than 1 account is strictly FORBIDDEN. All your accounts will be banned without notice.

14.3. Trying to buy, sell or give an account is FORBIDDEN.

14.4. Using the exchanger for other players is FORBIDDEN.

14.5. Getting an edge against the casino without any risks is FORBIDDEN. (e.g playing with faucet, winning from faucet then depositing to withdraw all the balance etc.) Only for earnings from faucets, we reserve the right not to authorize withdrawals.

14.6. Doing business on wixiplay without any authorization from us is FORBIDDEN.(e.g selling accounts, selling cryptocurrencies, mixing coins, money laundering etc.)

14.7. We can block your faucet ability without any warning.

If you are found to be in violation of these rules, we reserve the right to block/close/mute the userís account and invalidate any betting.

15. INACTIVE USERS

If it has been more then 1 months , since your last connection to your account , your account will be deleted


16. ACCOUNT CLOSURE You are able to close your Account at any time by contacting Customer Support by email. These Terms and Conditions shall be considered terminated as soon as the Account has been closed. The Account holder shall indicate to us the reason of it and if the Account closure is related to gambling addiction.

17. SELF-REFERRAL RULES

Signing up under your own affiliate link in order to get referral earnings for all your bets.
Referring yourself in order to earn more affiliate profits isn't allowed.

18. GAMBLING PROBLEM

You can find advice on the following websites:
- Australia: Gambling Help On Line http://www.gamblinghelponline.org.au/
- Canada : Responsible Gaming Resource Ctr http://www.rgrc.org/
- Denmark : Center for Ludomani http://ludomani.dk/
- Ireland: Gamble Aware http://www.gambleaware.ie/
- Slovenia : Center for Addiction Treatment Nova Gorica http://www.zd-go.si/ambulante/zdravljenje-odvisnosti/, Logout http://www.logout.si/
- Spain : JugarBIEN.es http://www.jugarbien.es/
- Sweden : St'dlinjen https://www.stodlinjen.se/#!/
- World Wide : GamblingTherapy https://www.gamblingtherapy.org/
- UK : GamCare http://www.gamcare.org.uk/

Last edited by: Wizard on Feb 29, 2020
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
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February 29th, 2020 at 6:41:26 AM permalink
Their reply accused scrooge of being a false apparition

I doubt you are going to get any reliable replies from them
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Mosca
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February 29th, 2020 at 7:18:42 AM permalink
That is exactly the kind of reply I would expect from a rigged joint. Indignation, deflection, accusation.
A falling knife has no handle.
Wizard
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March 2nd, 2020 at 8:39:05 PM permalink
Here is my video response to responses received about my first video.



Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvf-l7GmevA

I welcome all comments.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AxelWolf
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March 2nd, 2020 at 8:58:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is my video response to responses received about my first video.



Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvf-l7GmevA

I welcome all comments.

Excellent job.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Minty
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March 2nd, 2020 at 11:16:37 PM permalink
Great video. Love that you use your influence to not just inform millions of gamblers but to also fight against unregulated, unfair practices.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
scrooge
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March 3rd, 2020 at 1:43:24 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is my video response to responses received about my first video.



Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvf-l7GmevA

I welcome all comments.



Please edit out the part where it shows my bitcoin wallet from 4:41 to 5:12. I wasn't buying bitcoin, just sending coins that I already had. It shows my balance when the site is done loading. Other than that the video looks fine.
Last edited by: scrooge on Mar 3, 2020
darkoz
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March 3rd, 2020 at 6:42:48 AM permalink
As someone who also finds computer-speak difficult to explain to laymen, I always find giving a real-world analog example helps

So here goes


1) I write down a random number from 1-10 on a sheet of paper and seal that in an envelope so it's value is hidden to prove fairness {seed generated is scrambled so it's value is hidden}

2) You pick random number from 1-10, let's say you pick the number six {you make your wager and play}

3) I say you lost by not picking the correct number {game outcome displayed}

4) You open the envelope I supplied before you played and you see that indeed the number you picked was a losing wager (not six) by pulling out the "seed" paperwork with the original number that doesn't match what you picked {placing the seed into php program which confirms the wager would have lost}

5) You now double check a video of the transaction and discover that I secretly SWITCHED the envelope with the winning number for one with a losing number so that the initial "seed" documents are different and hoped you didn't notice {PHP says initial seed is a mismatch}

Is that the gist of the issue and if so I hope this helps layman understand it more
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OnceDear
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March 3rd, 2020 at 7:01:43 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Is that the gist of the issue and if so I hope this helps layman understand it more

Pretty much it.
The casino depends on most punters lacking the skill or inclination to do the checking or to have faith in themselves when the spot the con.
Those savvy punters like Wizard and Scrooge, get 86'd on a technicality putting their bankroll out of reach.
The casino was offering bonuses that even the dimmest AP could see were unsustainable. Could never have been a fair game in the medium or long term.
Other dodgy casinos probably act more legit to extend their longevity. SOME online casinos do play fair... But even they have heat thresholds and T's and C's that permit them to 86 the pesky winners.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Wizard
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March 3rd, 2020 at 7:29:37 AM permalink
Quote: scrooge

Please edit out the part where it shows my bitcoin wallet from 4:41 to 5:12. I wasn't buying bitcoin, just sending coins that I already had. It shows my balance when the site is done loading. Other than that the video looks fine.



I just did. Please see if this edited version is acceptable.



Direct: https://youtu.be/PkDiE4hThAM
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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March 3rd, 2020 at 7:38:33 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Is that the gist of the issue and if so I hope this helps layman understand it more



Yes, that is the gist of it.

I would add the casino even let's you examine the video. They still cheat because:

1. Most players don't check the video.
2. They don't always cheat -- perhaps 5% of the time.
3. Even if they get caught, who cares, there are plenty more fish in the sea and no regulator to hold them accountable.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
scrooge
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March 3rd, 2020 at 2:49:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I just did. Please see if this edited version is acceptable.



Direct: https://youtu.be/PkDiE4hThAM



Looks good.
heatmap
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March 3rd, 2020 at 3:39:42 PM permalink
As of today I am going to side with the casino. You guys are so worried about whether or not this is right or wrong and I bet itís completely legal wherever their servers are located at. You can tell they are definitely doing something wrong because they donít even attempt to be thorough about their response and use the ďheís a liarĒ accusation tactic. They are definitely caught red handed for sure. But this is an example as to why I know my software will be successful. Everyone thinks this stuff canít happen because anytime someone comes to this website the only person who can make these accusations is the former owner because people trust them more. But when anyone comes with blind accusations without the ability to possibly back up what they are saying the story ends there.

You guys reap what you sow on here and this is the reaping. Cheating is not illegal for casinos. Cheating is illegal for the players.
Wizard
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March 3rd, 2020 at 3:40:01 PM permalink
Quote: scrooge

Looks good.



Thank you!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
SOOPOO
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March 3rd, 2020 at 3:48:47 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

As of today I am going to side with the casino. You guys are so worried about whether or not this is right or wrong and I bet itís completely legal wherever their servers are located at. You can tell they are definitely doing something wrong because they donít even attempt to be thorough about their response and use the ďheís a liarĒ accusation tactic. They are definitely caught red handed for sure. But this is an example as to why I know my software will be successful. Everyone thinks this stuff canít happen because anytime someone comes to this website the only person who can make these accusations is the former owner because people trust them more. But when anyone comes with blind accusations without the ability to possibly back up what they are saying the story ends there.

You guys reap what you sow on here and this is the reaping. Cheating is not illegal for casinos. Cheating is illegal for the players.



I may have missed it, but I don't think the Wiz ever said what Wixi is doing is illegal. He is just alerting all of us to avoid that casino. I think this is a great investigative thread. Reap what you sow? How has this site 'sown' a cheating on line casino?
Wizard
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March 3rd, 2020 at 3:49:19 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

As of today I am going to side with the casino. You guys are so worried about whether or not this is right or wrong and I bet itís completely legal wherever their servers are located at. You can tell they are definitely doing something wrong because they donít even attempt to be thorough about their response and use the ďheís a liarĒ accusation tactic. They are definitely caught red handed for sure.



I like to think I welcome both sides of any topic. Since you are siding with the casino, you are more than welcome to be their advocate, but even you seem to agree with me about them.

Also, Wixiplay is more than welcome here to defend themselves. If you're reading this Wixiplay, I mean it. I will behave myself and we'll discuss this hopefully like gentlemen.

Quote:

But this is an example as to why I know my software will be successful. Everyone thinks this stuff canít happen because anytime someone comes to this website the only person who can make these accusations is the former owner because people trust them more. But when anyone comes with blind accusations without the ability to possibly back up what they are saying the story ends there.



I welcome accusations of cheating here. I've been listening to them for 23 years. Here is how they typically break down:

Adjective-laden rant with no numbers: 95%
Rant with numbers, but no analysis. After doing the analysis myself, results look like ordinary "bad luck." 4.5%
Legitimate evidence that points towards cheating, which I probably spent a long time reviewing: 0.5%

My point being, I need some numbers to work with before I'll take a complaint seriously.

Quote:

You guys reap what you sow on here and this is the reaping. Cheating is not illegal for casinos. Cheating is illegal for the players.



I never said they did anything illegal, per their licensed jurisdiction of Curacao, which I assume involves paying $50,000 for a rubber stamp and no regulation. Correct me if I'm wrong there.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
scrooge
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heatmap
March 3rd, 2020 at 4:08:36 PM permalink
1. Accepting US players without being licensed in the US is illegal in the US.
2. Claiming a casino game is random when it isn't is probably fraud, but if the casino is already an outlaw by #1 then they don't have anything to lose but their reputation.

I'd be very wary of small unlicensed casinos using their own home brew software.
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March 3rd, 2020 at 4:12:22 PM permalink
Unfortunately for me my accusations have turned profitable for me as in what I am seeing I think I am somewhat profiting off of

... I do agree with you wizard i absolutely believe they are being shady but I think that people get the wrong idea from threads like this that this stuff is illegal in ways. Thank you for clarifying. I am emotionally passionate about this subject and my emotions get in the way of logic when speaking about this kind of stuff.

I truly believed stuff like this wasnít possible because of regulations but I was wrong about mostly everything.
michael99000
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March 3rd, 2020 at 5:45:07 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Unfortunately for me my accusations have turned profitable for me as in what I am seeing I think I am somewhat profiting off of

... I do agree with you wizard i absolutely believe they are being shady but I think that people get the wrong idea from threads like this that this stuff is illegal in ways. Thank you for clarifying. I am emotionally passionate about this subject and my emotions get in the way of logic when speaking about this kind of stuff.

I truly believed stuff like this wasnít possible because of regulations but I was wrong about mostly everything.



When you say ďyou side with the casinoĒ , what are you referring to ?

Would you say casinos should be able to do anything they want in regards to dealing a fair/unfair game as long as they donít break the law ?
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March 3rd, 2020 at 6:03:11 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

When you say ďyou side with the casinoĒ , what are you referring to ?

Would you say casinos should be able to do anything they want in regards to dealing a fair/unfair game as long as they donít break the law ?



Unless what they are doing is codified and deemed illegal or legal, such as the exact process to how they generate their numbers then whatever they do to generate them is legal.

All of us have the choice to give someone our money or not and it comes down to this pretty much.

The only thing we can do is bring it up like the wizard said I guess
DRich
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March 3rd, 2020 at 7:12:50 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap



The only thing we can do is bring it up like the wizard said I guess



Exactly! We just need to educate people and then let them make their own decisions.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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March 3rd, 2020 at 7:24:38 PM permalink
Quote: scrooge

1. Accepting US players without being licensed in the US is illegal in the US.
2. Claiming a casino game is random when it isn't is probably fraud, but if the casino is already an outlaw by #1 then they don't have anything to lose but their reputation.

I'd be very wary of small unlicensed casinos using their own home brew software.



Very good points didnít even consider federal laws in my head up to reading this. Didnít consider fraud either.
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