Ripped off by CET in NJ
We are staying in Caesars AC. While in was stuck in the room I decided to play with their online casino. I deposited $300 and was given $300 in free play. When I read the terms I swear I read that vp and slots were both 10x play through. I knee that sounded too good but I started playing JoB and DDB. After playing 1.25 a hand for a while I decided to check on the bonus status. It said I was something like 2.8% completed. I was like uhhh wtf, I know I have played at least 3k hands. After reading some more I found where it said vp was 100x play througg. OK well I am not going to play 60k in the next day or so. I also read that it said you could forfeit your bonus. I read it a few times and thought if I forfeited the bonus they would take away my $300. At that time I had $513 in the account so I was ok with the $87 loss. I hit forfeit and boom entire balance was gone.
I just called and they explained that once you wager your original deposit you are then into bonus money. So if you wager $1.25 and have a pair of jacks you now have $298.75 cash and $301.25 bonus. So since I wagered all of the original cash 1 time my entire balance was considered a bonus. I was told there is nothing that they can do to reverse the decison and that the money is gone.
That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would anyone knowingly have them just take away $513 just because. OK so it was a mistake and CET doesn't give one rats ass about it. I am beyond pissed at this company right now.
Quote: GWAE... I deposited $300 and was given $300 in free play.
... and they explained that once you wager your original deposit you are then into bonus money. So if you wager $1.25 and have a pair of jacks you now have $298.75 cash and $301.25 bonus.
I don't play the machines, so I could easily misunderstand. If you started playing with your deposited funds, how is it that they claim your $300 in free play became a $301.25 bonus? Why did your "winnings" on the break-even payout become a bonus rather than balancing off the amount wagered?
Since you are physcially at the Casino maybe you can try talking to somebody in person and perhaps they will be more helpful? Or at the very least maybe they will be sympathetic and give you some extra comps or something.
Quote: DocI don't play the machines, so I could easily misunderstand. If you started playing with your deposited funds, how is it that they claim your $300 in free play became a $301.25 bonus? Why did your "winnings" on the break-even payout become a bonus rather than balancing off the amount wagered?
That's what I wanted to know. His only answer was, it's all in the TOS. I know what they say about assuming but I really assumed it was run like a real casino. When I walk into a casino with 200 free, I play it and any payout goes into cash. I assumed this was done the same way with the caveat of you must wager x amount before they will let you cash out.
I tried taking to cashier and cashier manager but they said they have nothing to do with online and to call the number listed on the app. I am a lowly gold card so I can't really go running to a slots host or anything.
I am very happy that my 4 day stay has still only costed me $418 including them stealing $300 from me. Well to be fair, stole $213.
Quote: GWAEThat's what I wanted to know. His only answer was, it's all in the TOS. I know what they say about assuming but I really assumed it was run like a real casino. When I walk into a casino with 200 free, I play it and any payout goes into cash. I assumed this was done the same way with the caveat of you must wager x amount before they will let you cash out.
I tried taking to cashier and cashier manager but they said they have nothing to do with online and to call the number listed on the app. I am a lowly gold card so I can't really go running to a slots host or anything.
I am very happy that my 4 day stay has still only costed me $418 including them stealing $300 from me. Well to be fair, stole $213.
FWIW, my experience with Bovada is that your bonus money goes first, not your cash, but you can't cash any of it out until you've run through the bonus multiplier. I'm not sure it makes a difference since you have to complete the requirement before getting any cashout, but they also don't claim you can forfeit your bonus and get your base cash back, either. Just contrasting two online bonus structures.
So, if you'd made 1 spin, they'd have given you back 298.75, even if that cash spin won, if you decided to forfeit, but your cash did not earn you cash, because you were doing their bonus deal. Hmmm.
What you experienced just seems wrong. But don't know much about how it's set up. Certainly stops me from bonus-whoring in NJ, tho.
Quote: beachbumbabsFWIW, my experience with Bovada is that your bonus money goes first, not your cash, but you can't cash any of it out until you've run through the bonus multiplier. I'm not sure it makes a difference since you have to complete the requirement before getting any cashout, but they also don't claim you can forfeit your bonus and get your base cash back, either. Just contrasting two online bonus structures.
So, if you'd made 1 spin, they'd have given you back 298.75, even if that cash spin won, if you decided to forfeit, but your cash did not earn you cash, because you were doing their bonus deal. Hmmm.
What you experienced just seems wrong. But don't know much about how it's set up. Certainly stops me from bonus-whoring in NJ, tho.
I remember reading in another post (couldn't find it now) (and not with Bovada), that you whenever you lose, you lose your money (cash) first. So if you lose 300 then win 300, then the entire portion of your money (cash) is gone and you are left with 600 of bonus, and you must play through the requirement to cash out, which I think is along the borders of being "unfair"
But I think the option to "forfeit" the "bonus" and then see your entire balance vanish is a CHEAP LOW BLOW. They ought to be a shame of themselves.
Quote: andysifI remember reading in another post (couldn't find it now) (and not with Bovada), that you whenever you lose, you lose your money (cash) first. So if you lose 300 then win 300, then the entire portion of your money (cash) is gone and you are left with 600 of bonus, and you must play through the requirement to cash out, which I think is along the borders of being "unfair"
But I think the option to "forfeit" the "bonus" and then see your entire balance vanish is a CHEAP LOW BLOW. They ought to be a shame of themselves.
I really think there should have been a warning. Like, by doing this your new balance will be $0.
I could even maybe justify it if my balance dropped below my cash. Like say in had $100 left and hit a royal then was like ok sure take my $300 back and I will cash out the 800. There is.obviosuly a way to tell if someone was taking a shot at them or just made a mistake.
Quote: MathExtremistThis is in a US-regulated casino? I have a hard time that rule got past regulators intentionally. You wagered and lost $87 and as a result of declining free play, the casino wiped out the remainder of your $300 deposit? That's not right. Do you have an attorney?
That is all correct. Lol no attorney over $213, but I will get my $213 worth of complaining and whining.
Quote: MathExtremistThis is in a US-regulated casino? I have a hard time that rule got past regulators intentionally. You wagered and lost $87 and as a result of declining free play, the casino wiped out the remainder of your $300 deposit? That's not right. Do you have an attorney?
not exactly.
he wagered a few thousand and the NET LOST is $87.
You're in the US, there may be statutory damages. I'd at least read the regs about such things. This sounds like a potential violation of the UCC if nothing else. And there's always small claims.Quote: GWAEThat is all correct. Lol no attorney over $213, but I will get my $213 worth of complaining and whining.
We are staying in Caesars AC. While in was stuck in the room I decided to play with their online casino. ME reread that.Quote: MathExtremistThis is in a US-regulated casino? I have a hard time that rule got past regulators intentionally. You wagered and lost $87 and as a result of declining free play, the casino wiped out the remainder of your $300 deposit? That's not right. Do you have an attorney?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You need to officially change name to GWA(N). That's seriously FKed up. That's a rouge casino move. They should just add back your bonus and cash and let you finish WR or lose. I have seen this feature before. The though the Idea was meant for situations where someone takes a big like 500% and instead of finishing the WR, the give up the bonus and winning only.
I wouldn't let this go. It's outright blatant theft and fraud IMO. I can only think of one reason someone would elect to do this. But it doesn't apply to you're situation. Maybe, just maybe, if they offered you a better deal that was so juicy you had to have it now, but you weren't eligible unless you completed prior wagering requirements.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Wow 100x WR on VP?
Notice how a regulated casino makes WR incredibly high? This is why im convinced many "trusted" online casinos are rigged. Someone explain how they can give you 200%+ bonuses (thousands per person) fair WR and THEN give affiliates 30% commissions per month without negative carry over?
My apologies. I was killing your dupes (there were 3) and then, suddenly, there were none. Oops! Could you please repost your comments on this?
Quote: beachbumbabsAxel,
My apologies. I was killing your dupes (there were 3) and then, suddenly, there were none. Oops! Could you please repost your comments on this?
That was my fault. I killed 2 of them, you probably nuked the other. I'll see if I can restore one of them, without Axel needing to re-post.
(Edit: All set.)
I don't know if a visit to DGE would help or if anyone is there to answer questions, guide you or provide forms. It looks like the process involves a few steps. First you must file a complaint with the casino you are having the dispute with and then wait for their response. Only after receiving that response can you file your complaint with the DGE. If you've been wronged by all means go for it. If nothing else it will provide some interesting posts for us to enjoy.
Again, because this was a regulated, US-based online casino, I'm sure you'll get your funds back if you ask. Who you have to ask is the open question: the casino operator, the DGE, or a New Jersey state judge. But based on my non-attorney understanding of how these transactions work, combined with my understanding of common gaming regulations for promotions, there is no way to justify the forfeiture of your deposit simply because you didn't play a certain amount. That'd be like putting $300 into a slot machine, downloading $300 in free play so now you have $600 on the meter, playing off $87, pressing "cashout" and not getting a cashout voucher at all.
Quote: MathExtremistYou're in the US, there may be statutory damages. I'd at least read the regs about such things. This sounds like a potential violation of the UCC if nothing else. And there's always small claims.
Yes, this. Also, probably could certify a class action. Lead plaintiff can usually negotiate a nice cut of proceeds.
The tale of the tape would be in a printout of the Terms of Service. Lacking that does not give the complainant much of a leg to stand on.Quote: BozI'll bet the details will tell the entire story. If this was the case I cant believe this is the first time we have heard about it. Was there perhaps something you have to agree to when accepting the bonus? Otherwise why would anyone take the bonus?
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe tale of the tape would be in a printout of the Terms of Service. Lacking that does not give the complainant much of a leg to stand on.
When I gently argued with the reps on the phone they kept saying the TOS explained all of this. My argument was that if they did then they were not clear enough for a layman. When it comes to contract law, there MUST be a meeting of the minds. In this case there was not so I am pretty sure I could win a small claims case but it is not worth going that route. We are on the way home right now and then I have to work 3, 16 hour days so I won't have time to deal with this. Early next week I am going to do anything that I can to fight this. Not over $213 but over the rediculous policy.
A gambling deposit is not a normal commercial transaction between two equal parties. If a gaming operator does something untoward, the stakes are a *lot* higher. If you don't get any satisfaction from the TOS itself, or you don't think you're qualified to fully interpret it (which is not a slight, that's how most TOSs are written), you may be well-advised to ask an attorney for a consultation. "A casino forfeited $213 of my money, here's the TOS, can you see if I have a case?" is something that probably a number of attorneys would at least answer for you pro bono. Not that they'd take the whole case pro bono, but I suspect you could find someone to at least review the basic facts and advise on whether (and how) to proceed. And if they smell a payday, you may be able to get the case handled on spec. I know some attorneys will do contingency work for things like jackpot malfunction claims. I've dealt with a few of those.
Can you post the TOS?
Quote: GWAEWhen I gently argued with the reps on the phone they kept saying the TOS explained all of this. My argument was that if they did then they were not clear enough for a layman. When it comes to contract law, there MUST be a meeting of the minds. In this case there was not so I am pretty sure I could win a small claims case but it is not worth going that route. We are on the way home right now and then I have to work 3, 16 hour days so I won't have time to deal with this. Early next week I am going to do anything that I can to fight this. Not over $213 but over the rediculous policy.
Wow that sucks. I can see them forfeiting your bonus. But I don't see what possible justification they could have for keeping the remainder of your original $300 deposit. They wouldn't pull that crap at a machine on the casino floor. Or at a BJ table. Why do they feel like they can get away with it online. Not that this is in anyway your fault GWAE. But this is yet another example of why online gaming is to be avoided.
I'd normally agree but we're talking about a New Jersey-regulated casino. The standards are (or should be) the same as land-based regulations, and the regulators and operators should be bending over backwards to convince the New Jersey public that this is a trustworthy enterprise. That's why I'm so incredulous that this is actually the intended policy. I'm almost certain this is a combination of a software bug plus someone in customer service who doesn't understand what's happening.Quote: vendman1But I don't see what possible justification they could have for keeping the remainder of your original $300 deposit. They wouldn't pull that crap at a machine on the casino floor. Or at a BJ table. Why do they feel like they can get away with it online. Not that this is in anyway your fault GWAE. But this is yet another example of why online gaming is to be avoided.
Maybe contact a newspaper ombudsman instead of an attorney. The press would have a field day with this.
Quote: vendman1Wow that sucks. I can see them forfeiting your bonus. But I don't see what possible justification they could have for keeping the remainder of your original $300 deposit. They wouldn't pull that crap at a machine on the casino floor. Or at a BJ table. Why do they feel like they can get away with it online. Not that this is in anyway your fault GWAE. But this is yet another example of why online gaming is to be avoided.
Thank you everyone and ME for support. Sometimes people posts these stories and it turns into a flaming war. I will get the TOS on here as soon as I can but it may be a few days. I am really going to look hard for the original ones that I read. I know for a fact it said vp and slots were the same. I looked for it specifically and would be incredibly annoyed at myself if I read them wrong.
,
As said above I fully expected this transaction to be completed as it would be in a casino since it is regulated like one. It appears that they took the illegal off shore casinos and modeled it after those instead.
Of course it is a rip off when you forfeit your bonus and the entire balance is gone.
BUT is it fair to the casino if the player ONLY forfeit his 300 bonus? The casino would go broke in no time.
Quote: andysifTo be fair on both sides, I think the proper rule is : you cannot opt out once you have received (and played with) the bonus.
Of course it is a rip off when you forfeit your bonus and the entire balance is gone.
BUT is it fair to the casino if the player ONLY forfeit his 300 bonus? The casino would go broke in no time.
Why? Maybe I don't understand your scenario, but my understanding is that he deposited $300 and had to play $30,000 in action in order to get another $300 bonus. If he doesn't hit $30,000 action, no bonus. He was down to $213 of his original BR after some amount of handle and decided to quit before hitting $30,000. The cashout should have voided the $300 bonus and returned $213. Instead, the cashout voided all $513. That's insane.
By the way, playing $30,000 to win $300 in free play is not an unreasonable offer. If you figure 2.5% expected loss from average VP players, 30% reinvestment, that's $225. $300 is a bit higher but not out of the question, especially if there are no other comps associated with it. Land-based properties usually divvy up reinvestment between food, rooms, free play, etc. I don't know what the online comps look like but being heavy on free play sounds reasonable.
Quote: MathExtremistWhy? Maybe I don't understand your scenario, but my understanding is that he deposited $300 and had to play $30,000 in action in order to get another $300 bonus. If he doesn't hit $30,000 action, no bonus. He was down to $213 of his original BR after some amount of handle and decided to quit before hitting $30,000. The cashout should have voided the $300 bonus and returned $213. Instead, the cashout voided all $513. That's insane.
By the way, playing $30,000 to win $300 in free play is not an unreasonable offer. If you figure 2.5% expected loss from average VP players, 30% reinvestment, that's $225. $300 is a bit higher but not out of the question, especially if there are no other comps associated with it. Land-based properties usually divvy up reinvestment between food, rooms, free play, etc. I don't know what the online comps look like but being heavy on free play sounds reasonable.
OK. Say he deposit 300, gets 300 in bonus, bet it all on red and win, now he had 1200. If he is allowed to forfeit his bonus of 300 and cash out 900, then he is essentially winning 2:1 on a 50/50 game. The casino is not gonna last long on these terms.
So once you have played with the bonus, I think the proper rule should be that you can't opt out.
I understand that scenario now, but that's not the fact pattern here. He was betting $1.25 at a time and was never down an amount larger than his original bankroll. His bonus was never exposed to action.Quote: andysifOK. Say he deposit 300, gets 300 in bonus, bet it all on red and win, now he had 1200. If he is allowed to forfeit his bonus of 300 and cash out 900, then he is essentially winning 2:1 on a 50/50 game. The casino is not gonna last long on these terms.
So once you have played with the bonus, I think the proper rule should be that you can't opt out.
Quote: MathExtremistI understand that scenario now, but that's not the fact pattern here. He was betting $1.25 at a time and was never down an amount larger than his original bankroll. His bonus was never exposed to action.
That is my exact stance. If I was never into the bonus money then it shouldn't come into play.
Quote: MathExtremistI understand that scenario now, but that's not the fact pattern here. He was betting $1.25 at a time and was never down an amount larger than his original bankroll. His bonus was never exposed to action.
on an individual case by case basis, yes, his bonus was never exposed to action.
but none the less, the bonus was given to him and had he lost his original 300 he had the chance to recoup his losses. That chance, whether he had used it or not, is worth something. how much does it worth, which would translate to "the fair amount of the forfeiture", is subject to discussion.
It's sort of like insurance, you can't say I didn't use it so can i get a refund?
That's why i think the fair rule is : no opt out, therefore no argument.
edit: poster andysif has it 100% right
Quote: andysifon an individual case by case basis, yes, his bonus was never exposed to action.
but none the less, the bonus was given to him and had he lost his original 300 he had the chance to recoup his losses. That chance, whether he had used it or not, is worth something. how much does it worth, which would translate to "the fair amount of the forfeiture", is subject to discussion.
It's sort of like insurance, you can't say I didn't use it so can i get a refund?
That's why i think the fair rule is : no opt out, therefore no argument.
If you prepay 6 months of insurance and cancel after the 5th day, you would get a refund of 175 days pro rated. If it is like insurance then I would get a refund. ;-)
Quote: MathExtremistWere the bonus funds actually added to the playable bankroll or were they just displayed separately, pending unlock by the coin in requirement?
I do not know this answer. At the top of the screen it shows your balance. It just says balance $513.75. I have some screen shots that I will post as soon as I get caught up with work. Don't you hate how you take a vacation then you have to work 5x as hard when you get back to get caught up. Sometimes I wish I had a job like an assembly line where it doesn't matter if I am not there.
Quote: GWAESometimes I wish I had a job like an assembly line where it doesn't matter if I am not there.
Playing online is an assembly line type of job/work.
I'm the opposite - I work for myself (with no employees) so if I'm not working, nothing happens. I have a hard time taking vacations, usually I end up working at least part of the time. It seems like forever since I fully unplugged. I'm thinking a cruise to Alaska next month might do it though.Quote: GWAEI do not know this answer. At the top of the screen it shows your balance. It just says balance $513.75. I have some screen shots that I will post as soon as I get caught up with work. Don't you hate how you take a vacation then you have to work 5x as hard when you get back to get caught up. Sometimes I wish I had a job like an assembly line where it doesn't matter if I am not there.
After you dig out, post your visuals and the TOS and I'm sure you'll get plenty of replies.
Quote: andysifon an individual case by case basis, yes, his bonus was never exposed to action.
but none the less, the bonus was given to him and had he lost his original 300 he had the chance to recoup his losses. That chance, whether he had used it or not, is worth something. how much does it worth, which would translate to "the fair amount of the forfeiture", is subject to discussion.
I don't know if he actually did have that chance; if not, certainly the fair amount was zero. If he did, there are ways to assess that fair value but in any event it would not necessarily have been "100% of the remainder of his initial deposit." It sounds like he deposited $300 and his initial credit meter then read $600. If he had gone to a high-stakes roulette table, could he have wagered more than $300 and used the bonus amount prior to the 100x coin-in qualifier? If the answer is yes, you have a point and it's worth figuring out how to assess the value. But if not, the forfeiture was manifestly unfair.
Quote: GWAEIf you prepay 6 months of insurance and cancel after the 5th day, you would get a refund of 175 days pro rated. If it is like insurance then I would get a refund. ;-)
yes, if you played only 2 or 3 hands that would be similar to canceling after 5 days.
but you have played a lot more that that. So the exact "fair" amount would be very hard, if possible at all, to be determined.
Hello GWAE,
CaesarsCasino.com wants to keep the rewards coming.
We're offering you a 20% bonus on your next deposit up to $300 when you use code EXTRA20.
Don't miss out on this limited time bonus!
Quote: GWAEI am still working on this situation. Probably won't get to it until the weekend but I am feeling so blessed that I received this email today.
Hello GWAE,
CaesarsCasino.com wants to keep the rewards coming.
We're offering you a 20% bonus on your next deposit up to $300 when you use code EXTRA20.
Don't miss out on this limited time bonus!
LOL They lost that key bankruptcy decision, obv.
