binary128
binary128
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 82
January 29th, 2014 at 8:00:05 AM permalink
Galewind Software has a Bonus Casino product. It was never used by Pinnacle Sports. It did see about 1.5 years of "real world burn in" at Heroes Casino before that operation went south.

(Because our "bonus money" is rewarded post-wager, JStrike of Strike Sapphire said that it wasn’t really a "bonus" so much as a "comp". I understood and agreed with his logic there.)


We built the system to address some of the complaints about bonuses that were posted on Casinomeister.

1. If the bonus is designed to be limited to game play in, say, just Video Pokers, and the Player mixes in some Blackjack play along with their Video Poker play, then the bonus simply ignores the Blackjack play. The bonus is not "hijacked" as a result of the BJ play, there is no impact on the WR, and so forth.

2. The Play Log displays, among other things, the current Wager Requirement (WR) that remains. (You don't need to call Customer Service.)

3. When you meet the WR, the bonus amount is immediately, and automatically, added to your Casino's bank balance. You don't need to call Customer Service, there is no delay associated with "reviewing your game play", and so forth.


All of the above serves as an introduction. The point is - our current bonus system is very simple. Those things that CAN BE handled automatically ARE handled automatically. There are some instructions in the Help system, but the "standard Casino T&Cs" (especially what can only be termed "really weird shit" that has been appearing recently):are almost non-existent.


Right now we're looking into the "Percent Contribution" system that seems so common in existing bonus processing. That is:

1. Wagers in Slots contribute 100% to the bonus WR.

2. Wagers in Table Games contribute 75% to the bonus WR.

3. Wagers in Video Poker contribute 50% ...

... and so forth. (I just made these numbers up.)

At the moment, our system is "100% or 0%". If the game is included in the "approved game list" for the bonus, then the wager contribution to the bonus WR is 100%. If the game is not included in the "approved game list" then the game is ignored and the wager contribution to the bonus WR is 0%.

(Side Note: Roulette and Craps are automatically excluded from the "approved game list" for any bonus.)

I like this system because it is so simple.

Could someone talk me out of using this simple system and going with the "percent contribution" system?

Chris
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
January 29th, 2014 at 9:01:07 AM permalink
Quote: binary128

Galewind Software has a Bonus Casino product. It was never used by Pinnacle Sports. It did see about 1.5 years of "real world burn in" at Heroes Casino before that operation went south.

(Because our "bonus money" is rewarded post-wager, JStrike of Strike Sapphire said that it wasn’t really a "bonus" so much as a "comp". I understood and agreed with his logic there.)


We built the system to address some of the complaints about bonuses that were posted on Casinomeister.

1. If the bonus is designed to be limited to game play in, say, just Video Pokers, and the Player mixes in some Blackjack play along with their Video Poker play, then the bonus simply ignores the Blackjack play. The bonus is not "hijacked" as a result of the BJ play, there is no impact on the WR, and so forth.

2. The Play Log displays, among other things, the current Wager Requirement (WR) that remains. (You don't need to call Customer Service.)

3. When you meet the WR, the bonus amount is immediately, and automatically, added to your Casino's bank balance. You don't need to call Customer Service, there is no delay associated with "reviewing your game play", and so forth.


All of the above serves as an introduction. The point is - our current bonus system is very simple. Those things that CAN BE handled automatically ARE handled automatically. There are some instructions in the Help system, but the "standard Casino T&Cs" (especially what can only be termed "really weird shit" that has been appearing recently):are almost non-existent.


Right now we're looking into the "Percent Contribution" system that seems so common in existing bonus processing. That is:

1. Wagers in Slots contribute 100% to the bonus WR.

2. Wagers in Table Games contribute 75% to the bonus WR.

3. Wagers in Video Poker contribute 50% ...

... and so forth. (I just made these numbers up.)

At the moment, our system is "100% or 0%". If the game is included in the "approved game list" for the bonus, then the wager contribution to the bonus WR is 100%. If the game is not included in the "approved game list" then the game is ignored and the wager contribution to the bonus WR is 0%.

(Side Note: Roulette and Craps are automatically excluded from the "approved game list" for any bonus.)

I like this system because it is so simple.

Could someone talk me out of using this simple system and going with the "percent contribution" system?

Chris


How about I talk you out of both and instead talk you into using a system based on theo? There's no need to mirror a land-based loyalty program if you're not a land-based casino. Shoot me an email (you should still have it) and we'll talk. Or PM me.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
joshstrike
joshstrike
Joined: Jan 31, 2014
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1
January 31st, 2014 at 1:17:03 PM permalink
Well hey Chris! Thanks for the mention - just had to join to talk you out of using an all-or-nothing "binary" bonus system (pun intended).

Just to separate this, we're talking about two things: (1). Bonuses ("Comps") that are awarded post-wager, and (2). bonuses that are awarded on deposit. And I think these things are fundamentally different, both for the casino and the player. I also like the idea of giving players the chance to take both at the same time, and decide for themselves the risks and rewards. But in order to do that, they have to work in very different ways.

I see any bonus/comp given post-wager as effectively a loyalty reward - before we started to do it systematically, I would be chatting up players an handing them a free $10 or $50 when I happened to see them have a bad run at a table. I still do that sometimes. But making it systematic -- which was an idea you were a major inspiration for -- was a good idea. Because it encourages players to build loyalty points. Rather than handing out cash willy-nilly, I decided it was better to give a small but regular post-wager bonus (comp) to all players, and base the percentage on the player's loyalty points. There had never been any WR associated with these freebies before, so I didn't think we should add one. Adding a WR after the fact makes a player (in my opinion) less likely to deposit again because they don't know if they have outstanding WR if they lose it. Even if they win and clear it, sometimes they don't realize they cleared it, so obviously they don't want to deposit money in a place where they think there's leftover WR. I decided to get around that by just giving the post-wager bonuses away for free, and calibrating it based on player points and on what those player points mean to our house edge. I lined it up so that a new player gets a very small rebate, but a player with 500k+ player points takes their EV- in blackjack down to around 0.1% after they get the rebate. Obviously they're playing more, and spending more money if they have that many points, so it makes sense to maximally reward that.

The other thing is the "all or nothing" bonus, which I disagree with. I do agree that if you're going to do a 0% or 100% withdrawal, it makes sense not to confuse the player with which games contribute what towards that. But from the house's perspective, that's a lose/lose proposition. What we do is clear-as-you-go -- so if a player decides to take a deposit bonus (and they can still take the post-wager bonus later, with no WR, but the bonus play doesn't count towards that) -- then their deposit+bonus amount is "withheld" by 30x. If they deposit $100 and take a $100 bonus, their withholding is $200. In most games, every $0.30 they play, they clear $0.01 for immediate withdrawal. But crucially, crucially, they can withdraw any winnings beyond the "withholding" at any time -- if they forfeit the withholding amount. So if they immediately double up, to $400, they can withdraw $201.xx right then by clicking to void the rest of the deposit+bonus.

Now - in this system, certain games obviously cannot count the same as other games. Rather than provide a whole ton of different levels, we just do a generous 20% of WR clearance for roulette, craps, blackjack and a bonus poker game that has a zero-house-edge feature. But again, it's all realtime, so as soon as anyone hits a royal flush on their bonus they can take out the win - they just have to void the deposit and bonus amount that hasn't been cleared yet.

To me, this is a fair system and a good one. I wouldn't personally play a 30x bonus at a casino that made me play the whole thing through before I could withdraw anything. But if I could withdraw my wins and void the bonus? Hell yeah.

Anyway. Again, thanks for the shout out. Keep in touch!
Founder/CEO - StrikeSapphire Bitcoin Casino - https://strikesapphire.com
binary128
binary128
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 82
April 18th, 2014 at 3:22:54 PM permalink
I'm "bumping" this thread because I'm getting close to being in a position to do something about it, rather than just think about it.

@Josh - For a LONG list of reasons, my current system cannot properly handle "game play with bonus money". I'm limited to "bonus money after game play", which, for another LONG list of reasons, I am OK with.

The idea of "leaking the bonus" during game play is now in my "good ideas to think about" list.

I've included the possibility of a "loyalty rating system" in the core application design, but I haven't come up with any specific algorithm for calculating this customer-specific value. Once I have the chance to think about it I can code it. The casino manager then just runs a report and hands out comps. Once I'm comfortable with that, then perhaps the code can be modified to hand out the comps automatically.


@MathExtremist - If your initials are SF, then yes I have your email. I'll follow up with you, at some point, on your suggestion of basing the contribution on the theoretical RTP.

Chris

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