Dween
Dween
Joined: Jan 24, 2010
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October 8th, 2013 at 7:28:12 AM permalink
I have tried my best to understand exactly how Class II machines pay out. Yes, I completely get that they are Bingo on steroids. But a few things escape me...

1. What if, on the entire network, only one player presses "spin" during the game window of 20ms? Two players are supposed to be in a game to make it valid, yes?

2. Are games played with a static number of balls drawn each time, or are balls drawn until one of the players hits bingo?

3. I get that certain bingo combinations translate to different slot configurations or poker hands. Is it dependent on how many balls it takes to get the bingo, or just the type of bingo a player gets (postage stamp, two-way bingo)? Could a single-line bingo cause a no-win on the slot, simply because it's programmed that way?

4. Depending on how the above questions are answered, could this scenario take place: Somehow, two colluding players are the only people on a Class II network. They are, in effect, playing against one another. Would one of them be guaranteed a win each time? Granted, that win may not be the full value of their bet, I suppose.

I may have more questions after the above are resolved.
-Dween!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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October 8th, 2013 at 7:33:45 AM permalink
4ofAKind, I'm not sure what your profanity-laden rant is all about, but it's full of misinformation:
1) The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, or IGRA, is indeed a federal law. It sets forth the definitions of the three classes of gaming on tribal lands. See 25 USC 2703. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/25/2703
2) New York racino VLTs are not Class II. They operate by drawing centrally-determined prize amounts from a set of virtual tickets distributed through a network. Class II electronic bingo games operate by creating a live quorum of two or more players and then conducting a shared bingo draw. A key difference between Class II and Class III games (either slots or centrally-determined VLTs) is that a Class II game is inoperable if only one player is on the network. To my knowledge, the only non-tribal Class II-like implementation ever attempted was in Alabama, but that was shut down by numerous court battles and police seizures.
3) Online casinos use RNGs directly. They don't use bingo draws or virtual scratch tickets. Not all online casinos are using RNGs properly, or fairly, but I can't imagine why an online casino platform would intentionally add the complexity of attempting a multiplayer bingo draw network, or shared virtual ticket pool, when one wasn't needed.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 8th, 2013 at 7:39:53 AM permalink
Quote: Dween

I have tried my best to understand exactly how Class II machines pay out. Yes, I completely get that they are Bingo on steroids. But a few things escape me...

1. What if, on the entire network, only one player presses "spin" during the game window of 20ms? Two players are supposed to be in a game to make it valid, yes?


Nothing. The game does not start. If you're in a Class II facility during a slow time, you can find a rare machine and demonstrate this to yourself.

Quote:

2. Are games played with a static number of balls drawn each time, or are balls drawn until one of the players hits bingo?


The balls are drawn until one player hits the game-ending pattern. That's usually only a small fraction of the total prizes paid, however, and many prizes are based on a fixed number of balls prior to that pattern (or after it).

Quote:

3. I get that certain bingo combinations translate to different slot configurations or poker hands. Is it dependent on how many balls it takes to get the bingo, or just the type of bingo a player gets (postage stamp, two-way bingo)? Could a single-line bingo cause a no-win on the slot, simply because it's programmed that way?


It could, but it would be unlikely. But yes, the basic premise is to map bingo patterns onto reel outcomes.

Quote:

4. Depending on how the above questions are answered, could this scenario take place: Somehow, two colluding players are the only people on a Class II network. They are, in effect, playing against one another. Would one of them be guaranteed a win each time? Granted, that win may not be the full value of their bet, I suppose.


Indeed, the game-ending prize is always awarded, but it is usually only a penny or two. If only two players are playing, one of them will win it. Just like bingo-hall bingo (which is the point, and which was a key factor in several legal decisions).
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
Joined: Sep 28, 2010
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October 8th, 2013 at 7:40:40 AM permalink
@Dween

Maybe the Wizard could get all those details. My only and main concern is what configuration is being used online to determine how my cards are being dealt to me. Random 52 card draw from a random RNG or controlled determined outcomes based on a pre-set TRTP?

Edit: Looks like Mathextremist was quick on the trigger.
Dween
Dween
Joined: Jan 24, 2010
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October 8th, 2013 at 8:12:21 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

The balls are drawn until one player hits the game-ending pattern. That's usually only a small fraction of the total prizes paid, however, and many prizes are based on a fixed number of balls prior to that pattern (or after it).


Quote: MathExtremist

Indeed, the game-ending prize is always awarded, but it is usually only a penny or two. If only two players are playing, one of them will win it. Just like bingo-hall bingo (which is the point, and which was a key factor in several legal decisions).


Ah... so to clarify, say that the game-ending pattern is a simple 5-in-a-row bingo. Balls are drawn until at least one player wins.

1a. Are prizes based on the number of balls drawn? (e.g. Royal Flush for 4 numbers drawn, Straight Flush for 5-9 numbers drawn, etc)
1b. Are prizes based on what type of 5-in-a-row the winning player got? (e.g. BAR BAR BAR for a vertical "O" column win, PLUM PLUM PLUM for a diagonal through the Free Space)
1c. Some combination of the two?

2. Do some games exist that give a higher payout to a premium win? Say, a criss-crossing double 5-in-a-row on the last number?

3. Say the prize won is $12.00. If 3 people have 5-in-a-row when the game ends, do they split it, $4.00 each, like a Bingo Hall?
-Dween!
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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October 8th, 2013 at 9:17:33 AM permalink
Not sure where Mathextremist felt my posting went to "profanity-laden"

It's also obvious that Class ratings don't necessarily confirm how winning decisions are decided.

Technology for computer gaming is advancing as fast as hand held devices are. The giant software providers for gaming produce every version and option available to satisfy anyone's needs or requirements, especially over the last five years.

This whole conversation is about comparing the different technical options being used and how winning hands are determined when playing against a computer, and what options online gaming are using.

My only concern is how are card games being dealt online.

Nor sure why I went through all of this searching for confirmation over the years how online casinos deal video poker when Mathextremist was here all along with the answer.

Thanks Mathextremist, I'm satisfied now. I rest my case.
binary128
binary128
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October 8th, 2013 at 12:08:19 PM permalink
Quote: 4ofaKind

Show me PROOF of what online casinos are using???????


What experiment would you define whose results would provide such proof?

Chris
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 8th, 2013 at 12:34:00 PM permalink
Quote: binary128

What experiment would you define whose results would provide such proof?

Chris


I don't think an experiment would do it. He'd probably want to see source code.

But then there are online gaming regs that require fair RNGs. GLI-19, for example:
http://www.gaminglabs.com/downloads/GLI%20Standards/updated%20Standards/GLI-19_Interactive_Gaming_Systems__v2_0_Final.pdf

And also the various e-gaming regulatory bodies, like Alderney, Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Malta, etc., whose regulations make similar requirements on RNGs.

But proof? There's no way to prove anything about online gaming to someone who doesn't trust the entire system, just like there's no way to prove a land-based video poker machine isn't hooked up to a laptop in a van out in the parking lot to feed it specific card values. Sometimes you just have to trust that the regulators are doing their jobs, or you shouldn't play the games.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
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October 8th, 2013 at 2:23:28 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Sometimes you just have to trust that the regulators are doing their jobs, or you shouldn't play the games.



If your convinced that any of the online regulators you mentioned above are doing their jobs and could be trusted, you're completely out of touch with online gaming and reality.

To me honestly, I'm rather surprised in your ridiculous above comment about online regulators and suggest you stick with land based casinos in honest jurisdictions where that comment is a confirmed fact.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 8th, 2013 at 2:38:22 PM permalink
Quote: 4ofaKind

If your convinced that any of the online regulators you mentioned above are doing their jobs and could be trusted, you're completely out of touch with online gaming and reality.

To me honestly, I'm rather surprised in your ridiculous above comment about online regulators and suggest you stick with land based casinos in honest jurisdictions where that comment is a confirmed fact.


I am forced to stick to land-based casinos. I live in a jurisdiction where placing online wagers is illegal.

Like I said, if you have trust issues, don't play. Nobody's forcing you to. You're essentially saying that you believe none of the regulators of online real-money gambling are "doing their jobs and could be trusted." By proxy, then, you're indicting the governments of at least four sovereign nations -- including Canada -- as being corrupt liars. Paranoid much?

And calling me out of touch with online gaming will no doubt elicit chuckles from those who know what I do for a living.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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