4ofaKind
4ofaKind
Joined: Sep 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2013 at 10:27:59 AM permalink
Below is a link to an article written by Frank Legato who is a writer for Casino Player Magazine. He clearly explains and compares the functions and different capabilities of both Class II and Class III versions of electronic gambling games. Casino Player is a great magazine for the serious and not so serious gambler of which I also subscribe to.

As most of you know for the last couple of years Iíve been trying to confirm what kind of a deal video poker online casinos are dealing to the players.

Pursuing online regulators for answers only proved to be a massive waste of time and serious effort. It also became obvious that although alleged online regulators do have certain rules written that their casino operator licensees would have to allegedly abide by; they offer no testing facilities of their own and only require a "letter of certification" certificate that the games they will offer meet their requirements.

This post by Eliot Jacobson is an example of how an online operator might prefer to gain a "letter of certification" certificate. Itís obvious Mr. Jacobson is a man of integrity, but Iím willing to bet that many "letters of certification" certificates could be obtained in this manner. http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/online/15008-a-prospective-cfg-client/#post267199

In addition alleged regulators do not monitor or perform any periodic testing after launch. These facts in themselves leave the door open; in fact more like not having a door on the hinges at all for foul play. Especially, when you consider the anonymity and the possibilities that are now obvious when operating an online gambling site offering real money against gambling games through cyberspace; the players have every right to cry foul play even if it is all just blatant bad luck since thereís no way of obtaining confirmed proof one way or the other.

Just the fact that it is impossible to get confirmed proof of what exactly is in place for online casinos and how itís done, is enough to cast doubts of fair play. There must be a reason why when pursing these issues about online gaming it becomes similar to trying to find out what the government might actually know about aliens if anything at all. They just deny all accusations and suspicions, and anyone that speaks out or leaks out what might be first hand inside information they get written off as conspiracy nut jobs.

This should not be the behavior which online casinos have when offering a real money game of chance based on entertainment simply when the players just want confirmed proof of a fair game already programmed in their favor.

Yet, when pursuing this same information at land based casinos operating in reputable jurisdictions, all information is easily obtainable with total and willing transparency, of course excluding many of the Indian operators.

When an online player can only get details from an affiliate that promotes (for personal financial gain) the same online casino their questioning simply based on his or her inside connections with reps. or owners; is no different then a crack dealer telling the new user itís not addict-able. Personally, I think affiliates and casino reps. know nothing about the actual inner workings of the programs being used and could care less. It's just about feeding the family. Let's be honest here and admit that the more you lose the more they get to eat.

I became convinced that Class II video poker versions are being used online years ago and since then itís been impossible to get confirmed proof their not. At land based casinos that offer Class II versions it would be easy and obvious to the educated player that they are. Fairies with magic wands giving players unexpected automatic wins, or Bingo cards planted on the game make the version obvious. But, online with a little simple code since itís not required by regulators these indicators and special features that would normally expose Class II games could totally be eliminated.

Of course ClassII video poker games pay what the pay-tables say when you hit a winning hand, but the frequency of these hits are solely based on how many times the software says their possible which is based on what's available in the stack of prizes pool, which is based on the operators pre-determined setting. They have nothing to do with random 52 card draws. When an operator has the privilege of setting a video poker game to pay more or less or anywhere in between expected variance it becomes a slot machine. There is no way an occasional player would even have a clue. I also suspect this ClassII version with endless options are being used on all other online table games just like the Racinos in New York who knowingly offer the worst RTP's on the planet.

I and many others certainly noticed the difference playing online table games. Slot machines don't really relate to the table games issue since the whole idea when you click spin on a slot machine and winning anything is based on wishing upon a star from that point on. Maybe online casinos did decide to risk reputations with table games knowing technically it would be impossible to prove without all history recorded data being made available.

Mr. Legato quotes an operator of Class II games that said:

ďthe games work like the standard versions of video pokeróagain, because the Class II casino will not risk ďkilling a manufacturerís title.Ē ďA lot of players may not know the difference between Class II and Class III,Ē he says. ďThatís why we replicate the video poker paytables as closely as possible. It would be a killer for us to do anything else.Ē

Based on all the foul play in all of its different forms weíve all witnessed over the years with online casino and poker rooms, that quote is tough to accept that online operators would have the same concerns.

Online and land-based casinos, and online and land-based regulators, NOT willingly open to transparency is simply not acceptable and should only be viewed as suspicious.

All the past proven doubts and possibilities surrounding the world of gambling is the reason gambling is usually viewed in a negative way. Las Vegas and Atlantic City recognized this years ago and cleaned it up with serious regulation and enforcement.

Hereís the article:

http://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-is-it-fair/


(edited to add more points)
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2013 at 12:13:28 PM permalink
Quote: 4ofaKind

.

Pursuing online regulators for answers only proved to be a massive waste of time and serious effort.
/



It's the same for B&M casinos, not just online. You can't
get anybody to tell you anything, it's all a very big secret
how these, or any, electronic games operate. For 3 months
I tried to get info on IGT's Roulette Evolution and hit a
brick wall every time. I even resorted to pretending I was
a casino manager from a Midwest casino and I still got nothing.

Years later when a couple of employee's of the
company who serviced the machines found out they were indeed
not 'fair' and found a way to predict outcomes, it was only then
that I got my answer.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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October 6th, 2013 at 1:06:57 PM permalink
Trust me, the seminoles in Florida are still using their old Class II games, have them placed without differentation among class III machines, and don't make the difference (or the much worse odds) evident to the players. Just because they're B&M doesn't mean they're not willing to deceive unwitting players.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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October 6th, 2013 at 1:23:51 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Just because they're B&M doesn't mean they're not willing to deceive unwitting players.



The manufacturers are
just as tight lipped with the casinos as they are with
the public. The casinos that had Roulette Evolution
had no idea it could be compromised, they learned
the hard way. Every aspect of the casino business
is not to be trusted, you will always get burned in
one way or another if you do. Better to go in with
an attitude that you're going to get screwed over
if you don't pay attention.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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October 6th, 2013 at 1:39:29 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The manufacturers are
just as tight lipped with the casinos as they are with
the public. The casinos that had Roulette Evolution
had no idea it could be compromised, they learned
the hard way. Every aspect of the casino business
is not to be trusted, you will always get burned in
one way or another if you do. Better to go in with
an attitude that you're going to get screwed over
if you don't pay attention.

Not everyone gets burned BOB, some people do the burning.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
Joined: Sep 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2013 at 1:45:04 PM permalink
@ Beachbumbabs: This is my opinion of land based ClassII operators. The last paragraph sums it up.

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/15194-the-harm-that-casinos-do/4/#post271803
binary128
binary128
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October 6th, 2013 at 5:29:55 PM permalink
As a "Fair Play" advocate, I've never had a problem with Class II slots versus Class III slots. They both deliver some unknown but fixed TRTP - they just use different methods to do it. As I understand it, Class II slots simply narrow the variance window so that the Casino doesn't have any "Oh No!" days/weeks/months.

As to Video Poker - well, that's another story.

Several people have requested that we implement an automatic "Optimal Strategy Auto Play" for our Video Poker games. I've responded that this would turn them into 2-click slots - Deal & Draw, Deal & Draw, Deal & Draw. No skill involved. In short - what's the point?

4ofaKind, you raised this issue before. I remember that I remained confused as to exactly how a Class II VP game handled the situation of the Player being dealt, say, a full house and then, just for shits & grins, deciding to draw 5 new cards. Your linked article explained it clearly. A magic Genie appears and says "You can't do that.".

(I would speculate that another possible response to discarding a full house is that you just get one back on the draw.)

Unlike Class III Video Pokers, you can't run the paytable through the Wizard's calculator and get the TRTP of the game. That remains as unknown as any slot. The paytable does nothing more than define what the game returns when it decides what your final hand is going to be.

In addition, the final game result is decided, NOT on the Draw (you can throw Optimal Strategy out the window), but on the Deal.

So, I'd say that my response to Class II Video Poker games remains the same as an automatic "Optimal Strategy Auto Play" system - what's the point?

Chris
tringlomane
tringlomane
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October 6th, 2013 at 7:44:07 PM permalink
Quote: binary128


4ofaKind, you raised this issue before. I remember that I remained confused as to exactly how a Class II VP game handled the situation of the Player being dealt, say, a full house and then, just for shits & grins, deciding to draw 5 new cards. Your linked article explained it clearly. A magic Genie appears and says "You can't do that.".

(I would speculate that another possible response to discarding a full house is that you just get one back on the draw.)

Chris



But the main point of this argument is, Class II (or electronic pulltabs) allows you to display a 99%+ paytable for a game dealt from a random standard poker deck, but make its actual return much less. I played Class II video poker in Alabama for amusement only (like 10c a hand) a few years ago; the place is currently shutdown for legality issues...lol ALL the paytables were 99%+ if it would have been a Class III game. I would generally hold garbage for the "genie" to appear and change my hand...or occasionally toss a winner for it to reappear, just like you have described...haha But did these machines actually return 99%, hell no!! The casino would barely turn a profit if that was the case.

With a class II/pulltab setup, you can subtly change the probabilities of occurrence to create a 92% return, or whatever you want...
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 6th, 2013 at 8:12:47 PM permalink
Back in the mid 90s shortly after I learned about VP, AP, I returned to washington to visit with my Parents. They lived down the street from the Lucky Eagle casino in Rochester Washington. While scouting the casino, I ran into some dollar Video poker. At first glance I knew had to be well over 100% payback. So I went out to my car, got out my 133 MHz canon laptop and opened my trusty VP tutor program, waited 20 min for the calculation. It came back as 106%. I new it had to be rigged. But I tried it anyways, I played a few hands and noticed when I made a play that would have resulted in a better hand if I were to hold something different, the machine magically payed me for the had I would have received, had I played it differently. I did win a few hundred. I did some research and confirmed they were not random, to bad

They did have some great Blackjack. Including a promotion that gave 2 to 1 on a Blackjack for 15 min each hour. From what I can remember they limited the bonus to 12.50
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
4ofaKind
4ofaKind
Joined: Sep 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2013 at 8:19:09 PM permalink
Quote: binary128

So, I'd say that my response to Class II Video Poker games remains the same as an automatic "Optimal Strategy Auto Play" system - what's the point?Chris



The outcomes of ClassII Video Poker or Blackjack games are pre-determined and based on the TRTP programming an operator decides to use, exactly like a pre-determined slot machines TRTP's work. Like I said I have no problems with this programming being used with slot machines.

Video Poker ClassIII games versions are purely designed with TRTPís based on 100% random 52 or 53 (wild) card draws and the designated pay table. The only way to reduce the RTPís you get with ClassIII versions is via the pay-table or playing without optimal strategies. I also read somewhere that only 9% of all video poker players play with consistent optimal strategy.

A ClassIII random card draw Royal Flush is 40,000 to one. ClassII has the privilege of making it 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or 80,000 to one to control the operatorís choice of RTP the casino prefers. With ClassIII games a player could always have the chance of hitting back to back royal flushes. Improbable at 40,000 to one but still possible. With ClassII after hitting a royal flush the chance of hitting another one back to back would be impossible if another hit would mean reducing the operators TRTP expectations. That second back to back Royal win option would be removed from the predetermined stack of prizes available. (Quote) "with prizes drawn from the overall money wagered." So, if enough money wasn't wagered to cover a second back to back Royal that prize would be eliminated from the pool till enough money was wagered to bring it back into it.

Like you said here ďClass II slots simply narrow the variance window so that the Casino doesn't have any "Oh No!" days/weeks/months.Ē {is another benefit the operators gain by using them.}

The bottom line here is that there obvious is nothing wrong with ClassII machines which obviously are all over the place presently being used. I have no problem with its use playing slot machines. I do however have issues when itís being used with video poker or blackjack games and alleged regulators are not willing to tell the public that plays them exactly what in fact types of games they are.

If I want to play a video poker slot machine Iíll play a video poker slot machine. Yet, when I want to play Video Poker with optimal strategy and expectations of 99% rtp or better over the long run, I need an equally random 52 card draw ClassIII machine, not a ClassII version that might have pre-determined settings at 90% or anywhere else they prefer it to be.

Random vs. pre-determined is very different and advanced video poker and blackjack players will recognize the difference. And we most definitely did over the years. ClassII video poker machines are slot machines dressed up in video poker clothing both at land based and online casinos that are using them.

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