BitCoin

Quote: billryan

Quote: DRich

Quote: BTLWI

There's no need for an underlying claim BECAUSE YOU CAN TRUST THE ISSUER.
In fiat you can't trust the issuer so you desire A BACKING.
Backing is only a requirement when there is no trust in issuance.
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Every Fiat currency has failed over time so my assumption is that trend will continue, including the U.S. dollar.
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Which non-Fiat currency has succeeded over time? As no nation's currency is a Fiat one, I'd argue that every fiat-based currency failed and evolved into the non-fiat system the world has used for at least the last fifty years.
We will all die, and the USofA will be subjected to history books someday, but it won't be because the dollar wasn't backed by silver.
It might be because of the population's addiction to plastic.
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What do you mean? Every contemporary currency is fiat, including Bitcoin, under the technical definition of the word fiat.

Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

[
Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
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I kinda agree and disagree with this. Government in a personal sense can't control "free speech" directly either. But like in times of old, as soon as it's out of your mouth they can run a sword through your middle. There are all sorts of ways to control things even if not directly.

I think the dream of crypto was originally bigger, than the actual reality will be as far as monetary freedom.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: vegas

Quote: lilredrooster

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how is the price of bitcoin and how are any changes in the price determined__________?

and who if anybody makes that determination________?

.
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Just like stocks it is supply and demand. If you have more buyers than sellers it pushes the price up. People often sell to take some profit and then rebuy on dips.
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okay

but let's say today you have $900 million more in buys than sells

how is it determined how much the price will go up _____________?

what is the calculation_________? link to original post

"More buyers than sellers" is the common explanation, and it's wrong. The price has nothing to do with the *number* of buyers or sellers. And it's not even the total *amount* of shares or coins that all the buyers/sellers want to sell or buy, either. The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept. That's managed by something called on "Order Book".

Below is the current Order Book for Bitcoin on Kraken, a popular exchange. Buyers are listed on the bottom. The most any buyer is willing to pay is $116,537.50. All the buyers willing to pay that price have 3.28 BTC that they're willing to buy.

On the top side are the sellers. The lowest price any seller is willing to accept is $116,537.60. The total number of BTC that all sellers willing to sell at that price is 2.0 BTC.

Those are all orders placed by buyers and sellers who are waiting for the price to move before they buy or sell. But let's say you want to buy 3.0 BTC right away, at whatever the price is. That's a "Market Order". You place your order, which swallows up the first three cheapest lines on the top of the order book from the sellers (which totals 2.01 BTC), and then you buy 0.99 BTC of the fourth-cheapest line ($116,554.80). The last trade was $116,554.80, so that's the current price.

Or at least, that's the current price at Kraken. The price differs a little from exchange to exchange.

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Quote: MichaelBluejay

The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept

That's managed by something called on "Order Book".

how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______?

there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay

I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.

.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

[
Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
link to original post

I kinda agree and disagree with this. Government in a personal sense can't control "free speech" directly either. But like in times of old, as soon as it's out of your mouth they can run a sword through your middle. There are all sorts of ways to control things even if not directly.

I think the dream of crypto was originally bigger, than the actual reality will be as far as monetary freedom.
link to original post

My reason for saying that is it not being legal tender. That term does not mean it must be accepted for trade, it means it must be accepted as payment for a debt within some jurisdiction. And courts are the arbitrators of debts.

So let's say you want to sell me your car, you don't have to accept dollars, you can insist on 1 bitcoin. That's fine, that price, and thus the value of the car relative to Bitcoin is between you and me, we have to come to an agreement. But let's say I damage your car, and we go to court, and the judge says I owe you either $10,000 or 1 bitcoin. That judge has just placed a limit on the value of Bitcoin.

The guys who want Bitcoin to be legal tender I don't think are considering this, and I would rather see the value of Bitcoin to be separated from any armed authority; just the buyers and sellers of good and services come to a collective consensus on what a bitcoin is worth. Sure government can still punish us if we don't do what they tell us to do, but they can't tell us how we value our bitcoins.

Also being based on digital communications it's a lot harder for them to see what we are doing with it, unlike the currency they issue and regulate.

Quote: lilredrooster

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Quote: MichaelBluejay

The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept

That's managed by something called on "Order Book".

how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______?

there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay

I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.



.
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The kind of people who would be paying a random price for BTC aren't buying enough to affect the market. That happens all the time on some books, called "fat fingering" where someone makes a typo in entering their order and there are people positioned to exploit that. It doesn't have enough weight to move the market much.

Quote: lilredrooster

.how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______? link to original post

Again, that's determined by the order book. For people waiting for the price to move, they've put in their orders stating the max they're willing to pay. For people *not* waiting for the price to move, they get the cheapest price listed in the order book when they place their Buy order.

Quote: lilredrooster

there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay

It doesn't matter. If the cheapest Sell price is the order book is $100, but a market buyer is willing to pay $200, lucky for them they won't get ripped off, when they place their order they'll get the $100 price.

Quote: lilredrooster

I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.

No, they couldn't have. You got the cheapest Sell price listed in the order book.

Quote: lilredrooster

.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept

That's managed by something called on "Order Book".

how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______?

there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay

I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.

The issue is when you put a market order in and a dozen people frontrun your transaction.

.
link to original post

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: billryan

Quote: DRich

Quote: BTLWI

There's no need for an underlying claim BECAUSE YOU CAN TRUST THE ISSUER.
In fiat you can't trust the issuer so you desire A BACKING.
Backing is only a requirement when there is no trust in issuance.
link to original post

Every Fiat currency has failed over time so my assumption is that trend will continue, including the U.S. dollar.
link to original post

Which non-Fiat currency has succeeded over time? As no nation's currency is a Fiat one, I'd argue that every fiat-based currency failed and evolved into the non-fiat system the world has used for at least the last fifty years.
We will all die, and the USofA will be subjected to history books someday, but it won't be because the dollar wasn't backed by silver.
It might be because of the population's addiction to plastic.
link to original post

What do you mean? Every contemporary currency is fiat, including Bitcoin, under the technical definition of the word fiat.

Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
link to original post

Strike that. Reverse it. As every currency in the world is fiat, I think it is safe to say that non-fiat currencies have failed and their time has passed.
Edit- I corrected my original post as I reversed fiat and non-fiat.