BitCoin
Well of course, that's obvious. But with Bitcoin that's not going to happen. You can find it at $15,000 once it hits $15,000, but if you believe it has a zero value then there's no way it should ever go up to $25,000. When you buy it at 15,000 and it's worth a zero then it should just keep going down from 15,000 down to zero. Why would anybody who thinks somthing is worth zero buy it for 15,000 in hopes that it will magically go up to 25,000? If you think something's worth zero then you should be thinking it's going to go to zero at any moment. That's definitely some minus EV gambling there.Quote: billryanIf I can find people to buy X at 25K, and the cheapest I can find X is 15K, I'll make that play every day. My personal feelings don't matter. My feelings affect what I buy for myself, not what I deal in.
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Quote: AxelWolfWell of course, that's obvious. But with Bitcoin that's not going to happen. You can find it at $15,000 once it hits $15,000, but if you believe it has a zero value then there's no way it should ever go up to $25,000. When you buy it at 15,000 and it's worth a zero then it should just keep going down from 15,000 down to zero. Why would anybody who thinks somthing is worth zero buy it for 15,000 in hopes that it will magically go up to 25,000? If you think something's worth zero then you should be thinking it's going to go to zero at any moment. That's definitely some minus EV gambling there.Quote: billryanIf I can find people to buy X at 25K, and the cheapest I can find X is 15K, I'll make that play every day. My personal feelings don't matter. My feelings affect what I buy for myself, not what I deal in.
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It's not gambling. I think it is a basic understanding of human nature
You would have to explain that in more detail related to Bitcoin, we are not talking about collectibles or anything else, we are talking about Bitcoin. If Bitcoin goes down to 15,000 and you buy it there's no way of knowing if it's going to go up or down from there, that's called gambling. Unless you know it's worth zero then you should pretty much know it's going to go below $15,000 because it has zero value. If you're buying it at 15,000 then you believe it has value and think it's going up.Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfWell of course, that's obvious. But with Bitcoin that's not going to happen. You can find it at $15,000 once it hits $15,000, but if you believe it has a zero value then there's no way it should ever go up to $25,000. When you buy it at 15,000 and it's worth a zero then it should just keep going down from 15,000 down to zero. Why would anybody who thinks somthing is worth zero buy it for 15,000 in hopes that it will magically go up to 25,000? If you think something's worth zero then you should be thinking it's going to go to zero at any moment. That's definitely some minus EV gambling there.Quote: billryanIf I can find people to buy X at 25K, and the cheapest I can find X is 15K, I'll make that play every day. My personal feelings don't matter. My feelings affect what I buy for myself, not what I deal in.
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It's not gambling. I think it is a basic understanding of human nature
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Quote: billryan
I still think Bitcoin's long-term value is close to zero, but I've been spectacularly wrong so far.
I would argue the U.S. Dollar also has a long term value of zero. Every fiat currency has eventually failed.
It doesn’t matter what I think. If Joe is willing to sell it for $90k, and Sally is willing to buy it for $90k, it’s worth $90k.
As much as I don’t like the entire concept, if I could buy them today for $80k I’d snap them up. (And sell as soon as I could).
Quote: DRichQuote: billryan
I still think Bitcoin's long-term value is close to zero, but I've been spectacularly wrong so far.
I would argue the U.S. Dollar also has a long term value of zero. Every fiat currency has eventually failed.
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As opposed to what? Can you tell me a non-fiat-based currency that is successful today?
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: billryan
I still think Bitcoin's long-term value is close to zero, but I've been spectacularly wrong so far.
I would argue the U.S. Dollar also has a long term value of zero. Every fiat currency has eventually failed.
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As opposed to what? Can you tell me a non-fiat-based currency that is successful today?
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Precious metals. Russia has been doing a lot of trading with India, China, and North Korea in gold for oil and gas.
Quote: DRichQuote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: billryan
I still think Bitcoin's long-term value is close to zero, but I've been spectacularly wrong so far.
I would argue the U.S. Dollar also has a long term value of zero. Every fiat currency has eventually failed.
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As opposed to what? Can you tell me a non-fiat-based currency that is successful today?
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Precious metals. Russia has been doing a lot of trading with India, China, and North Korea in gold for oil and gas.
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They trade commodities for commodities. This is bartering, a system of trade that doesn't involve currency. I want to think our economic system has evolved beyond barter.
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: billryan
I still think Bitcoin's long-term value is close to zero, but I've been spectacularly wrong so far.
I would argue the U.S. Dollar also has a long term value of zero. Every fiat currency has eventually failed.
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As opposed to what? Can you tell me a non-fiat-based currency that is successful today?
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Precious metals. Russia has been doing a lot of trading with India, China, and North Korea in gold for oil and gas.
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They trade commodities for commodities. This is bartering, a system of trade that doesn't involve currency. I want to think our economic system has evolved beyond barter.
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Just because you are trading pieces of paper with very little intrinsic value does not mean it is not a system of barter.
Quote: billryan
As opposed to what? Can you tell me a non-fiat-based currency that is successful today?
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Ain't never been to prison? Everything used as money there has some practical use. The classic prison money was cigarettes and that was convenient because they were: universally recognized and consumed, all almost the same, durable, and permitted by the authorities. Now few people of prison age smoke tobacco and most are nonsmoking facilities so they have to get more creative with commissary items, use of contraband cell phones, illicit drugs and alcohol, and certain unmentionable acts. But they all have in common that they are things you can use or enjoy while in the prison. Because there's no guarantee that you're going to be able to take them out with you and once you're out those things will have a completely different value to you, unrelated to what they meant to you while inside.
So I guess this leads to the hypothesis that fiat currencies are for those who are already free and do not need their medium of trade to have any practical purpose as long as they can trade it for things that do have practical purpose in the unlimited environment of the free world. The fact that you can't buy anything you want in prison makes things more valuable than money in there. Bitcoin Bros are very free people so all the positive attributes of Bitcoin for trade are worth more to them than an asset being practical and tangible.
I can't understand why the average person would want or need Bitcoin. For the most part, I can't imagine people are using it to buy things.
I can't imagine the average person is trying to use it for a store of value.
For the most part, you can send money back and forth quickly, and at times the fees are very small. For example, I think it costs less than $1 to transfer $3000 today
If done correctly no one would ever know you had Bitcoin and no one could ever take it from you short of putting a gun to your head and demanding you give them the key. Again, I don't think the average person is even considering something like that.
Quote: AxelWolfI must admit I think Bitcoin is overvalued. I assume the main reason people are buying Bitcoin is because they believe it's going to go up in value?
I can't understand why the average person would want or need Bitcoin. For the most part, I can't imagine people are using it to buy things.
I can't imagine the average person is trying to use it for a store of value.
For the most part, you can send money back and forth quickly, and at times the fees are very small. For example, I think it costs less than $1 to transfer $3000 today
If done correctly no one would ever know you had Bitcoin and no one could ever take it from you short of putting a gun to your head and demanding you give them the key. Again, I don't think the average person is even considering something like that.
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Wow an entire post about Bitcoin that I agree with. Of course the only reason people are buying Bitcoin is because they think it's going to go up in value. It has no other use or function. In China they just found the largest gold find in history. They figure it's worth either 60 billion dollars or 600 billion dollars I don't remember. But gold has a function. Gold is extremely useful in making jewelry and in electronics and God knows what else. Bitcoin has no use whatsoever except it's value, which is determined by the market. It could go away tomorrow and nobody would even know it because nobody uses it for anything.
I am not a "Bitcoin going to the moon" guyQuote: EvenBobQuote: AxelWolfI must admit I think Bitcoin is overvalued. I assume the main reason people are buying Bitcoin is because they believe it's going to go up in value?
I can't understand why the average person would want or need Bitcoin. For the most part, I can't imagine people are using it to buy things.
I can't imagine the average person is trying to use it for a store of value.
For the most part, you can send money back and forth quickly, and at times the fees are very small. For example, I think it costs less than $1 to transfer $3000 today
If done correctly no one would ever know you had Bitcoin and no one could ever take it from you short of putting a gun to your head and demanding you give them the key. Again, I don't think the average person is even considering something like that.
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Wow an entire post about Bitcoin that I agree with. Of course the only reason people are buying Bitcoin is because they think it's going to go up in value. It has no other use or function. In China they just found the largest gold find in history. They figure it's worth either 60 billion dollars or 600 billion dollars I don't remember. But gold has a function. Gold is extremely useful in making jewelry and in electronics and God knows what else. Bitcoin has no use whatsoever except it's value, which is determined by the market. It could go away tomorrow and nobody would even know it because nobody uses it for anything.
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I'm an "It's here to stay, and it's a useful tool" guy. I invested because the concept solved a problem and the technology was great.
I saw there was a use for it and then it became useful for me, now I use it as a tool. There have been times when I was certain it would go up and I touted it as a buy-it-now. The fair/real price is probably a little above what it costs to mine it.
You keep saying Bitcoin has no use whatsoever and yet, it's being used daily.
Quote: AxelWolfI must admit I think Bitcoin is overvalued. I assume the main reason people are buying Bitcoin is because they believe it's going to go up in value?
I can't understand why the average person would want or need Bitcoin. For the most part, I can't imagine people are using it to buy things.
I can't imagine the average person is trying to use it for a store of value.
For the most part, you can send money back and forth quickly, and at times the fees are very small. For example, I think it costs less than $1 to transfer $3000 today
If done correctly no one would ever know you had Bitcoin and no one could ever take it from you short of putting a gun to your head and demanding you give them the key. Again, I don't think the average person is even considering something like that.
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I think the cash apps like Zelle and Venmo came in and took over what I would have thought Bitcoin would have been used for. Person to person money transfers.
And that's the advantage of Bitcoin and the blockchain unless you make a mistake everything can be verified on the blockchain once that Bitcoin hits your personal wallet, it's yours period. They can't give you fake goods or counterfeit money they can't chargeback or write a bad check.Quote: billryanI've been asked twice to take Bitcoin on a comic. Both were costly books, and when I refused them, the buyers went away, which made me believe something was not legitimate.
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Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
Someone's incurring a fee somewhere, it just may not be on your end.Quote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
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Quote: billryanI've been asked twice to take Bitcoin on a comic. Both were costly books, and when I refused them, the buyers went away, which made me believe something was not legitimate.
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They were investing in something real, a comic that will only go up in value, and attempting to buy it with something that isn't real and has an unsure future.
Quote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
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Credit cards all charge fees, you may not see it as it is the seller that is paying the fees. Most credit cards charge between 2% and 3%.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
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Credit cards all charge fees, you may not see it as it is the seller that is paying the fees. Most credit cards charge between 2% and 3%.
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Bitcoin holder pays the credit card fee in sellers increased prices whether he likes it not, whereas a CC holder gets benefits. And Bitcoin holder pays a fee to move money. At least that's the way it is now.
Didn't comic books go down 40% or 50% in recent years?Quote: EvenBobQuote: billryanI've been asked twice to take Bitcoin on a comic. Both were costly books, and when I refused them, the buyers went away, which made me believe something was not legitimate.
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They were investing in something real, a comic that will only go up in value, and attempting to buy it with something that isn't real and has an unsure future.
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Quote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
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What is the mining incentive if there is no fee?
Quote: AxelWolfDidn't comic books go down 40% or 50% in recent years?Quote: EvenBobQuote: billryanI've been asked twice to take Bitcoin on a comic. Both were costly books, and when I refused them, the buyers went away, which made me believe something was not legitimate.
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They were investing in something real, a comic that will only go up in value, and attempting to buy it with something that isn't real and has an unsure future.
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Comic books saw a ridiculous price rise during COVID-19. I could wholesale my stock for what it would have retailed at a few years back. Since then, the market has tanked, except for the very top end. A book I sold as a consignment for $115K sold at auction for $42K this summer. The pre-auction estimate was $75-100K. I'd guesstimate 90% of comics and sports cards have decreased in value in the last three years. Most books are around their 2017 price level, with many much lower.
The best book that I own outright is Brave and Bold 28 in 6.5. I paid $5,000 cash and $5000 in trade for it three years ago. A similar book just sold for $5500. I was tempted to buy it at that price, just to cut my losses.
I was a little apprehensive when I sold my inventory, but it has worked out well.
Quote: AxelWolfDidn't comic books go down 40% or 50% in recent years?Quote: EvenBobQuote: billryanI've been asked twice to take Bitcoin on a comic. Both were costly books, and when I refused them, the buyers went away, which made me believe something was not legitimate.
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They were investing in something real, a comic that will only go up in value, and attempting to buy it with something that isn't real and has an unsure future.
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Comic books saw a ridiculous price rise during COVID-19. I could wholesale my stock for what it would have retailed at a few years back. Since then, the market has tanked, except for the very top end. A book I sold as a consignment for $115K sold at auction for $42K this summer. The pre-auction estimate was $75-100K. I'd guesstimate 90% of comics and sports cards have decreased in value in the last three years. Most books are around their 2017 price level, with many much lower.
The best book that I own outright is Brave and Bold 28 in 6.5. I paid $5,000 cash and $5000 in trade for it three years ago. A similar book just sold for $5500. I was tempted to buy it at that price, just to cut my losses.
I was a little apprehensive when I sold my inventory, but it has worked out well.
Quote: rxwineQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
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Credit cards all charge fees, you may not see it as it is the seller that is paying the fees. Most credit cards charge between 2% and 3%.
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Bitcoin holder pays the credit card fee in sellers increased prices whether he likes it not, whereas a CC holder gets benefits. And Bitcoin holder pays a fee to move money. At least that's the way it is now.
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I might be mistaken but I thought person to person bitcoin transfers had no fees as long as you don't go through a middleman.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
link to original post
Credit cards all charge fees, you may not see it as it is the seller that is paying the fees. Most credit cards charge between 2% and 3%.
link to original post
Bitcoin holder pays the credit card fee in sellers increased prices whether he likes it not, whereas a CC holder gets benefits. And Bitcoin holder pays a fee to move money. At least that's the way it is now.
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I might be mistaken but I thought person to person bitcoin transfers had no fees as long as you don't go through a middleman.
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Depends on what you mean by "Bitcoin."
Being I was an early adopter, miner, researcher and all that good stuff, Bitcoin means one thing to me- an entry on a ledger that I access with a full node, open source wallet. When I transfer Bitcoin on the blockchain the only fees I pay are the network fees to the miners, for including my transaction in the next block. Those fees can range from de minimis to those rivaling those for Visa. I also use Lightning Bitcoin, which is a little different than Bitcoin in that while the actual Bitcoins are still being secured by the blockchain, there is a private network among Lightning users that transfers coins much more quickly, anonymously, and with even lower fees. Lightning Bitcoin is not a good choice for the inexperienced.
Most Bitcoin users are using something else- light wallets, or much worse, custodial wallets which those like me consider to be utterly awful, as you don't really own the keys to your coins. Basically- the kiddies are treating their Bitcoin like their Venmo apps. Those have whatever fees the company that really owns your coins decides to charge. Whenever you hear about coins lost, coins hacked, etc., it's something like that, usually some kind of scam involving a custodial wallet or service.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
link to original post
Credit cards all charge fees, you may not see it as it is the seller that is paying the fees. Most credit cards charge between 2% and 3%.
link to original post
Bitcoin holder pays the credit card fee in sellers increased prices whether he likes it not, whereas a CC holder gets benefits. And Bitcoin holder pays a fee to move money. At least that's the way it is now.
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I might be mistaken but I thought person to person bitcoin transfers had no fees as long as you don't go through a middleman.
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As I recall,...
When bitcoins are transferred on the blockchain, a small fee applies. You can decide the level of fee you want to pay and get higher or lower confirmation speed.
If you own bitcoin on certain exchanges, you don't actually own or control them and when you make a payment to another account holder on the same exchange, all that happens is that the exchange adjusts it's ledger, and no fee applies.(IIRC)
Quote: OnceDearQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineIs bitcoin always going to charge fees? You can use a credit card for a lot of things without ever incurring a fee.
Oh, and cashback and points, and maybe other benefits, like discounts.
link to original post
Credit cards all charge fees, you may not see it as it is the seller that is paying the fees. Most credit cards charge between 2% and 3%.
link to original post
Bitcoin holder pays the credit card fee in sellers increased prices whether he likes it not, whereas a CC holder gets benefits. And Bitcoin holder pays a fee to move money. At least that's the way it is now.
link to original post
I might be mistaken but I thought person to person bitcoin transfers had no fees as long as you don't go through a middleman.
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As I recall,...
When bitcoins are transferred on the blockchain, a small fee applies. You can decide the level of fee you want to pay and get higher or lower confirmation speed.
If you own bitcoin on certain exchanges, you don't actually own or control them and when you make a payment to another account holder on the same exchange, all that happens is that the exchange adjusts it's ledger, and no fee applies.(IIRC)
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Correct there is a fee. It can vary. After all we are not communists.
Quote: AZDuffman
Correct there is a fee. It can vary. After all we are not communists.
Who collects the fee on a person to person transfer where no exchange is used?
The 'Network' imposes the fee and it's paid to miners involved in the confirmation process. It's a sort of double bidding system where miners dynamically bid what they are prepared to accept in exchange for stopping mining long enough to do a confirmation and the sender bids the total fee offered. When a transaction has 6 or so confirmations, it's considered by most recipients as undisputedly received. If the sender doesn't offer enough of a fee, their transaction may take from several days to 'forever' to get confirmed. The last few times I shifted BTC, I pitched my fee offer at about $1 and it usually went through within a couple of hours.Quote: DRichQuote: AZDuffman
Correct there is a fee. It can vary. After all we are not communists.
Who collects the fee on a person to person transfer where no exchange is used?
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At times of very high volatility, fees need to be bid higher to get transactions confirmed: Maybe $5 to $10 or so.
There is a fix for if someone bids way too low and transactions stick. A follow up transaction can offer to top up any fees on previously unconfirmed transactions. Sort of 'recipient pays'
