BitCoin
What did your nephew buy for $4,000 and what did he sell for $35,000? Why was someone willing to pay $35,000 for something they could buy today for half of that?
You are the best AP I know and can exploit an advantage like no one I've met. What advantage do you see in this? I know you wouldn't put a dollar in a slot machine without an advantage so what advantage do you see? There has to be an easier way to access internet casinos than by playing Russian roulette with your money.
I don't think there anything backing bitcoin. Do all currencies have something legit backing them? Yes, it's easy to convert into cash. I don't know how easy it would be to convert millions worth.Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMy questions. What's BTC good for when it comes to the average everyday person, and why would they want to mess with it at this point? Why would someone want to use it as a store of value with all the volatility and problems?
These questions should be always asked when there is a conversation about BC. What tangible assets are backing the instruments, and how easily can the instrument be converted to $$$?
tuttigym
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I'm talking about BitCoin. There are tons of stocks that are a scam, and lots of other things are scams created to make someone rich. Isn't Herbalife still in business?Quote: EvenBobQuote: AxelWolf
Whatever the case, I'm just trying to understand how/why it's a scam.
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Right now there are over 4,000 different kinds of crypto, how many of those do you think are scams. I'll tell you how many, all of them. They were all invented with an agenda to make the originator rich. They are all unregulated, need I go on? They have scheme and scam written all over them.
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Explain with some actual facts why BTC is a scam I'm not asking to be sarcastic I really want to see a solid explanation. Why are there so many smart businessmen invested in BTC?
BTC he bought it for 4-5k and sold it when it was at 35k At the time people were willing to buy it for 35k.Quote: billryanI googled "Is bitcoin a scam", and got thirty-three million responses.
What did your nephew buy for $4,000 and what did he sell for $35,000? Why was someone willing to pay $35,000 for something they could buy today for half of that?
You are the best AP I know and can exploit an advantage like no one I've met. What advantage do you see in this? I know you wouldn't put a dollar in a slot machine without an advantage so what advantage do you see? There has to be an easier way to access internet casinos than by playing Russian roulette with your money.
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BTC is the best way to fund and cash out online casinos that are not state-regulated. I could take the risk out of the equation by automatically converting it into my cash balance or into crypto when needed, but I just keep it in BTC. That's been a net positive overall. Obviously, I gave back a significant amount from my high but made much more by just keeping it in BTC.
I made my decision regarding BTC and unless someone has something seriously eye-opening to make me change my mind I'm sticking to it, good or bad.
FYI a majority of Advantage Players I know personally have or do invest in BTC and other Crypto.Quote: AxelWolfI'm talking about BitCoin. There are tons of stocks that are a scam, and lots of other things are scams created to make someone rich. Isn't Herbalife still in business?Quote: EvenBobQuote: AxelWolf
Whatever the case, I'm just trying to understand how/why it's a scam.
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Right now there are over 4,000 different kinds of crypto, how many of those do you think are scams. I'll tell you how many, all of them. They were all invented with an agenda to make the originator rich. They are all unregulated, need I go on? They have scheme and scam written all over them.
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Explain with some actual facts why BTC is a scam I'm not asking to be sarcastic I really want to see a solid explanation. Why are there so many smart businessmen invested in BTC?
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Quote: billryan
The full faith of the United States backs the US Dollar. You might ask the Kaiser, Hitler, or Saddam Hussien just what that means.
What backs crypto? It appears like the answer might have been SBF, a bunch of paid celebrities and some random internet trolls.
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It means that the US Government will get the fed to print more of them if needed.
Is the gold window going to open soon? Only closed "temporarily" they say.
I have a feeling if I go to Oklahoma and ask a few Cherokee what "the full faith and credit of the US Government" means I can learn to swear in a new language!
Quote: SOOPOO
You know there is no tangible asset that backs up the US dollar now? I don’t own any crypto, and hate the idea of them. But the name ‘Tiger Woods’ is worth tens of millions without including a ‘tangible asset’ backing it up.
I really do not get the "hate the idea of them" thing. What is wrong with a way to transfer wealth at a fraction of the cost VISA, MasterCard, or Western Union will charge?
What I think people hate is crypto goes outside the system, which they cannot accept. In some places people might trade services now. They guy who does the pest control at the auto shop gets a free oil change for example. But that is limiting, you have to find people who want to trade and their trade has to be fairly even value for fairly even value. With crypto you could pay for the oil change then the owner can go to the brewpub and pay his tab. The brewpub can then pay the pest control guy. A third person can now join, and there is no paperwork, no keeping a ledger, and no cheating.
We are rapidly heading towards a time when the government will be able to totally shut a person out of the economy if they like. Same as we did to Russia, but to the individual. We are currently very close. I have heard of people who cannot have a bank account because the IRS will just take any funds deposited. Think it is going to stop there? Crypto keeps us free from this.
Only if people avoid the exchanges.Quote: AZDuffman
We are rapidly heading towards a time when the government will be able to totally shut a person out of the economy if they like. Same as we did to Russia, but to the individual. We are currently very close. I have heard of people who cannot have a bank account because the IRS will just take any funds deposited. Think it is going to stop there? Crypto keeps us free from this.
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Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: SOOPOO
You know there is no tangible asset that backs up the US dollar now? I don’t own any crypto, and hate the idea of them. But the name ‘Tiger Woods’ is worth tens of millions without including a ‘tangible asset’ backing it up.
I really do not get the "hate the idea of them" thing. What is wrong with a way to transfer wealth at a fraction of the cost VISA, MasterCard, or Western Union will charge?
What I think people hate is crypto goes outside the system, which they cannot accept. In some places people might trade services now. They guy who does the pest control at the auto shop gets a free oil change for example. But that is limiting, you have to find people who want to trade and their trade has to be fairly even value for fairly even value. With crypto you could pay for the oil change then the owner can go to the brewpub and pay his tab. The brewpub can then pay the pest control guy. A third person can now join, and there is no paperwork, no keeping a ledger, and no cheating.
We are rapidly heading towards a time when the government will be able to totally shut a person out of the economy if they like. Same as we did to Russia, but to the individual. We are currently very close. I have heard of people who cannot have a bank account because the IRS will just take any funds deposited. Think it is going to stop there? Crypto keeps us free from this.
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Why can't said person open a bank account without the IRS seizing his money? It wouldn't be because he owes us money, could it? When will you realize that people cheating on their taxes doesn't hurt the IRS. It hurts us, the American people?
I find it bizarre that people support tax cheats but some folks lose so much that they mistake small setbacks as a victory of sorts. At least they are willing to admit that crypto is used to cheat on taxes. Not theirs, of course, but the poor drug dealer who can't open a legit bank account.
I love that in trying to save 35% on taxes, the people lost 75% of their money. Good work. Then they lecture us on how taxes are theft.
Quote: billryan
Why can't said person open a bank account without the IRS seizing his money? It wouldn't be because he owes us money, could it? When will you realize that people cheating on their taxes doesn't hurt the IRS. It hurts us, the American people?
I find it bizarre that people support tax cheats but some folks lose so much that they mistake small setbacks as a victory of sorts. At least they are willing to admit that crypto is used to cheat on taxes. Not theirs, of course, but the poor drug dealer who can't open a legit bank account.
I love that in trying to save 35% on taxes, the people lost 75% of their money. Good work. Then they lecture us on how taxes are theft.
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More than a few ex-spouses have had this problem. Not to mention the IRS has pretty broad authority to seize, minimal due process. The IRS has a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset.
The difference between "Tax Avoidance" and "Tax Evasion" is really just what the IRS says it is. But the IRS is just one part of it all. Seriously, can you not see how the feds keep trying to make as much electronic as possible? The $10,000 reporting threshold for cash has not gone up in 50 years, it should be at least $40,000 now. I do not want to live in a world where my financial life can be turned off at the click of a mouse. For that reason, I like crypto.
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: billryan
Why can't said person open a bank account without the IRS seizing his money? It wouldn't be because he owes us money, could it? When will you realize that people cheating on their taxes doesn't hurt the IRS. It hurts us, the American people?
I find it bizarre that people support tax cheats but some folks lose so much that they mistake small setbacks as a victory of sorts. At least they are willing to admit that crypto is used to cheat on taxes. Not theirs, of course, but the poor drug dealer who can't open a legit bank account.
I love that in trying to save 35% on taxes, the people lost 75% of their money. Good work. Then they lecture us on how taxes are theft.
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More than a few ex-spouses have had this problem. Not to mention the IRS has pretty broad authority to seize, minimal due process. The IRS has a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset.
The difference between "Tax Avoidance" and "Tax Evasion" is really just what the IRS says it is. But the IRS is just one part of it all. Seriously, can you not see how the feds keep trying to make as much electronic as possible? The $10,000 reporting threshold for cash has not gone up in 50 years, it should be at least $40,000 now. I do not want to live in a world where my financial life can be turned off at the click of a mouse. For that reason, I like crypto.
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You don't want to live in a world where you pay your share of taxes, but you want to live in a society with good roads, where police come when you are call and the bogeyman can't get to you. On someone else's dime.
Quote: billryanQuote: AZDuffmanQuote: billryan
Why can't said person open a bank account without the IRS seizing his money? It wouldn't be because he owes us money, could it? When will you realize that people cheating on their taxes doesn't hurt the IRS. It hurts us, the American people?
I find it bizarre that people support tax cheats but some folks lose so much that they mistake small setbacks as a victory of sorts. At least they are willing to admit that crypto is used to cheat on taxes. Not theirs, of course, but the poor drug dealer who can't open a legit bank account.
I love that in trying to save 35% on taxes, the people lost 75% of their money. Good work. Then they lecture us on how taxes are theft.
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More than a few ex-spouses have had this problem. Not to mention the IRS has pretty broad authority to seize, minimal due process. The IRS has a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset.
The difference between "Tax Avoidance" and "Tax Evasion" is really just what the IRS says it is. But the IRS is just one part of it all. Seriously, can you not see how the feds keep trying to make as much electronic as possible? The $10,000 reporting threshold for cash has not gone up in 50 years, it should be at least $40,000 now. I do not want to live in a world where my financial life can be turned off at the click of a mouse. For that reason, I like crypto.
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You don't want to live in a world where you pay your share of taxes, but you want to live in a society with good roads, where police come when you are call and the bogeyman can't get to you. On someone else's dime.
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My share of taxes went beyond police and roads into very useless and bad things long, long ago. That is all I will say to avoid this getting political.
Quote: AZDuffman
We are rapidly heading towards a time when the government will be able to totally shut a person out of the economy if they like. Same as we did to Russia, but to the individual. We are currently very close. I have heard of people who cannot have a bank account because the IRS will just take any funds deposited. Think it is going to stop there?
he slips in his political views here under the guise of commenting about crypto
so, I'll put my stuff in there too and let the chips fall where they may
so, THE BIG BAD U.S. GOVERNMENT is messing with people and it's really horrible
wonder why they never messed with me
wonder how many others at Wov have been victimized by THE BIG BAD U.S. GOVERNMENT
and these people who can't have a bank account because the IRS will just take their funds
I'm sure they're all wonderful people - never did a wrong thing in their lives
okay, he's got me convinced - I'm going to start worrying about THE BIG BAD U.S. GOVERNMENT
they're going to take away all my toys
𝙄'𝙈 𝙍𝙀𝘼𝙇𝙇𝙔 𝙍𝙀𝘼𝙇𝙇𝙔 ******* 𝙎𝘾𝘼𝙍𝙀𝘿 𝘼𝙎 **** 𝙊𝙁 𝙏𝙃𝙀𝙎𝙀 𝙐.𝙎. 𝙂𝙊𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙉𝙈𝙀𝙉𝙏 𝙂𝙐𝙔𝙎
𝙏𝙃𝙀𝙔'𝙍𝙀 𝘾𝙊𝙈𝙄𝙉𝙂 𝙏𝙊 𝙂𝙀𝙏 𝙈𝙀 𝘼𝙉𝘿 𝙏𝙃𝙀𝙔𝙍𝙀 𝙂𝙊𝙄𝙉𝙂 𝙏𝙊 𝙏𝘼𝙆𝙀 𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙏𝙄𝙉𝙂 𝙄 𝙃𝘼𝙑𝙀 𝙁𝙊𝙍 𝙎𝙐𝙍𝙀
.
Keep it out of THE MANs reach by entrusting it to strangers and the whim of the marketplace.
HLod on, the doubling is only 15 months away.
Keep it out of THE MANs reach by entrusting it to strangers and the whim of the marketplace.
HLod on, the doubling is only 15 months away.
As I understand it, every bitcoin is easily identified and traced, so when regulations are put in place, the evil IRS will unleash its minions on transactions and figure out who has been playing hide the cash from Uncle Sam.
Quote: lilredroosterQuote: AZDuffman
We are rapidly heading towards a time when the government will be able to totally shut a person out of the economy if they like. Same as we did to Russia, but to the individual. We are currently very close. I have heard of people who cannot have a bank account because the IRS will just take any funds deposited. Think it is going to stop there?
he slips in his political views here under the guise of commenting about crypto
so, I'll put my stuff in there too and let the chips fall where they may]
The difference is I said nothing "political." I am pointing out that as we abandon cash it becomes very easy to shut a person out of the economy. This is not political, it is a warning about the way the system is headed. And a news flash, both parties are pushing it.
Quote: billryanIt's the new math. Better to lose 75% of your money on unregulated spec than pay 30% in taxes.
Keep it out of THE MANs reach by entrusting it to strangers and the whim of the marketplace.
HLod on, the doubling is only 15 months away.
As I understand it, every bitcoin is easily identified and traced, so when regulations are put in place, the evil IRS will unleash its minions on transactions and figure out who has been playing hide the cash from Uncle Sam.
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Lets see, about 10 years ago, BTC was about $1,000. It is about $17,000 now. The math to me seems to say buy and hold. If pattern holds it will hit about $250,000 next doubling, at which time I will have enough to make it worth putting 80% of that to stablecoins. After that it should fall to around $50,000 and the haters here will again be saying it is a fraud and lost 80% of its value. After it hits bottom do it all over again.
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: lilredroosterQuote: AZDuffman
We are rapidly heading towards a time when the government will be able to totally shut a person out of the economy if they like. Same as we did to Russia, but to the individual. We are currently very close. I have heard of people who cannot have a bank account because the IRS will just take any funds deposited. Think it is going to stop there?
he slips in his political views here under the guise of commenting about crypto
so, I'll put my stuff in there too and let the chips fall where they may]
The difference is I said nothing "political." I am pointing out that as we abandon cash it becomes very easy to shut a person out of the economy. This is not political, it is a warning about the way the system is headed. And a news flash, both parties are pushing it.
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your explanation didn't fool me
you're ranting about the Government and the IRS
I don't care about your post being allowed and am not trying to get you suspended - definitely don't want that
just sayin'________________________if it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck
there's a real good chance it's a duck
.
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: billryanIt's the new math. Better to lose 75% of your money on unregulated spec than pay 30% in taxes.
Keep it out of THE MANs reach by entrusting it to strangers and the whim of the marketplace.
HLod on, the doubling is only 15 months away.
As I understand it, every bitcoin is easily identified and traced, so when regulations are put in place, the evil IRS will unleash its minions on transactions and figure out who has been playing hide the cash from Uncle Sam.
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Lets see, about 10 years ago, BTC was about $1,000. It is about $17,000 now. The math to me seems to say buy and hold. If pattern holds it will hit about $250,000 next doubling, at which time I will have enough to make it worth putting 80% of that to stablecoins. After that it should fall to around $50,000 and the haters here will again be saying it is a fraud and lost 80% of its value. After it hits bottom do it all over again.
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So your plan is to wait until BC hits $250,000 and then cash out 80%. Wow. I suppose it's better than a plan that involves hitting the lotto jackpot. Obviously, you will leave the 20% and wait until BC hits $ 1.5 million and repeat your cashout. Got to love a man with a plan.
By the way, do you have any idea how many other collectibles pop and then fall 75-90% How many people are waiting for baseball cards, John Wayne, Elvis and hundreds of other once hot collectibles to regain their former values.
Bitcoin will only go up in value if a larger audience continues to buy into them. I'm pretty sure that ship done sailed. You keep saying Bitcoin will hit $250,000 next year. I don't suppose you'd like to wager on it?
Quote: darkozIt appears everyone is an expert when the price craters on anything.
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https://wizardofvegas.com/article/bitcoin-crash/
Quote:Fundamentally, I maintain the position that I have always held that Bitcoin has no fundamental, or intrinsic value. None whatsoever. In terms of absolute value, I consider BTC to be completely worthless. In fact, since BTC costs money (for various reasons) to get in the first place and does not have any intrinsic value, I consider the absolute value (negative) whatever it cost to mine it.
Of course, something of this nature is highly speculative, which isn’t at all in my wheelhouse. When I made some kick ass stock picks back in 2020, I based all of my decisions on the fact that the stocks had practically become worth less in implied value than they were actually worth in absolute value, or if not less, something very close to it. I saw the reaction to the Covid-19 pandemic (vis-a-vis the markets) as a massive overreaction that would have only been appropriate if it turned out we would collectively be on lockdown forever. Of course, in that event, nothing would have mattered anyway.
It’s for that reason that I can’t make any predictions here because I consider BTC to have a fundamental value of $0.00, absolute value of some negative amount and think of Bitcoin (and other crypto) as nothing more or less than a confidence game in its purest form.
Written well in advance of this most recent event, just saying.
Quote: SOOPOO
I saw a 1 year chart. (Dates approximate). If you bought Bitcoin a year ago at $67,500, you only lost SEVENTY FIVE percent of your investment. Let me repeat that. 75%.
A year ago I think we had a thread here saying Bitcoin $500,000 or some such. So buying at that $67.5k mark looked like a great investment to those thinking $500k was around the corner. And you would have lost 3/4 of your money. Even my shitty stocks/bonds are ‘only ‘ down 15% or so.
I’m certainly not smart enough to make a good guess on Bitcoin. But after FTX I wouldn’t be bullish.
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(Quote clipped to remove quote in quote)
I agree with you that I am not smart enough to make a guess. You might be smart enough to make a guess, but I am not smart enough to make a guess.
The best thing to do when you're not smart enough to make a guess is to not make a guess, or bad things tend to happen, sometimes.
Quote: billryanQuote: AZDuffmanQuote: billryanIt's the new math. Better to lose 75% of your money on unregulated spec than pay 30% in taxes.
Keep it out of THE MANs reach by entrusting it to strangers and the whim of the marketplace.
HLod on, the doubling is only 15 months away.
As I understand it, every bitcoin is easily identified and traced, so when regulations are put in place, the evil IRS will unleash its minions on transactions and figure out who has been playing hide the cash from Uncle Sam.
link to original post
Lets see, about 10 years ago, BTC was about $1,000. It is about $17,000 now. The math to me seems to say buy and hold. If pattern holds it will hit about $250,000 next doubling, at which time I will have enough to make it worth putting 80% of that to stablecoins. After that it should fall to around $50,000 and the haters here will again be saying it is a fraud and lost 80% of its value. After it hits bottom do it all over again.
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So your plan is to wait until BC hits $250,000 and then cash out 80%. Wow. I suppose it's better than a plan that involves hitting the lotto jackpot. Obviously, you will leave the 20% and wait until BC hits $ 1.5 million and repeat your cashout. Got to love a man with a plan.
By the way, do you have any idea how many other collectibles pop and then fall 75-90% How many people are waiting for baseball cards, John Wayne, Elvis and hundreds of other once hot collectibles to regain their former values.
Bitcoin will only go up in value if a larger audience continues to buy into them. I'm pretty sure that ship done sailed. You keep saying Bitcoin will hit $250,000 next year. I don't suppose you'd like to wager on it?
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I am following the pattern of the last 12 years. This is not like looking and seeing red has hit 5 times then black 2 then red 5 so switch. BTC has had steadily increasing adoption over the years. In countries more enlightened than the USA, or IOW most other advanced countries, BTC is on the financial markets.
Only about 22% op USA adults own BTC per a quick Google peek, and worldwide only about 1 billion people own any kind of crypto. That means we have lots more people that can enter the market. If every millionaire in the USA bought1 BTC then there would be none left for anyone else. Just millionaires and just the USA. See the scarcity?
ETH is more abundant and has more uses. It is also now deflationary. So I have investments in it as well. Plus some SHIB, that one more a lottery ticket. I keep hoping some poor country says they are making SHIB their currency. At worst my investment there is what I might lose if I was an avid slots player. My chances of it hitting in even a moderate way are bigger than hitting the progressive.
Almost two years ago, there were 400,000 bitcoin transactions a day. Today the average is closer to 250,000.
Bitcoin November 26, 2021- 54,572.
Bitcoin November 24, 2022-16, 555 Down 71% for the year
Quote: billryanSo your repeated claim that bitcoin will hit $250,00 next year isn't something you want to bet on?
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He actually didn't make that claim.
He said next DOUBLING.
He didn't say next year or when it would happen.
Quote: darkozQuote: billryanSo your repeated claim that bitcoin will hit $250,00 next year isn't something you want to bet on?
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He actually didn't make that claim.
He said next DOUBLING.
He didn't say next year or when it would happen.
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It was thought to be in March of 2024, but most people say June 2024 these days.
Quote: billryanYou keep saying Bitcoin will hit $250,000 next year. I don't suppose you'd like to wager on it?
Don't you think he is already wagering on it if he is buying bitcoin?
Quote: DRichQuote: billryanYou keep saying Bitcoin will hit $250,000 next year. I don't suppose you'd like to wager on it?
Don't you think he is already wagering on it if he is buying bitcoin?
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He'll be so rich a couple of hundred won't make a difference in his net worth, but it would go a long way toward his credibility. I'll even drop the price to $200,000 by the end of 2024.
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: billryanYou keep saying Bitcoin will hit $250,000 next year. I don't suppose you'd like to wager on it?
Don't you think he is already wagering on it if he is buying bitcoin?
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He'll be so rich a couple of hundred won't make a difference in his net worth, but it would go a long way toward his credibility. I'll even drop the price to $200,000 by the end of 2024.
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So let me get this straight.
If Bitcoin goes to $199,000 by the end of 2024 you will win your wager and point out how correct you were that Bitcoin has no future?
I would be willing to bet the no on that and give odds. I already bet the no (and won)on it hitting 100k on or before January 2022.Quote: billryanA few stats.
Almost two years ago, there were 400,000 bitcoin transactions a day. Today the average is closer to 250,000.
Bitcoin November 26, 2021- 54,572.
Bitcoin November 24, 2022-16, 555 Down 71% for the year
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Would you be willing t be it hits $1 or less before 250k or more in the next five years? Anything in between would be a push.
I'm willing to bet it will be over 16,371 one year from now, are you willing to take that bet? I'm willing to bet it will hit 20k+ before it hits 10k or less.
the link attempts to show that the price trends of BTC and Ethereum follow the stock market
I didn't read the whole article - but I'm certain that the difference is that with crypto the up and down swings are much more extreme
https://time.com/nextadvisor/investing/cryptocurrency/bitcoin-and-ethereum-prices-usually-mirror-the-stock-market-is-that-changing/#:~:text=Over%20the%20last%20year%2C%20crypto,nearly%20one%2Dto%2Done.
.
Quote: darkozQuote: billryanSo your repeated claim that bitcoin will hit $250,00 next year isn't something you want to bet on?
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He actually didn't make that claim.
He said next DOUBLING.
He didn't say next year or when it would happen.
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Correct. I have heard 2024 sometime, which is not next year.
Also correct in the post that said I am already betting on it. It and the two others I mentioned. Although I prefer to say "invest" or "wager" than "bet."
The new kool thing is to throw out wild claims and repeat them without actually meaning it.
If I said BT would be X, I would mean it and back up my words.
Instead, we get a nonsensical post like it will be $250,000, and today Cathy Woods claiming it will hit one million dollars per. It's more ridiculous than some guy claiming an 80% hit rate, on a table game but that is where we find ourselves these days. My gawd, who doesn't want to buy something that "an expert" says will go up 6,000% in the next year or so?
Perhaps if we bathe bitcoin in a solution of lemonlabob, it will go up to two million per coin. You heard it here first.
It's been discussed before but maybe it's too ethereal for people to grasp.
The output is supposed to be the solving of complex mathematical problems necessary (for some reason I can't fathom but required by someone) and these are too difficult for any human.
THAT'S what is Bitmining. When a solution is found the value for finding it is paid in Bitcoin instead of cash.
You can't hold a mathematical solution in your hand so people on this forum can't see it's value.
.
Which I find extremely strange since this forum is filled with mathematicians. It's like if the Wizard solved a complex math problem and I said show me physically how to sell that because your mental gymnastics are just beanie babies. (No offense to Wizard just making an example of why saying Bitcoin has no value makes no sense to me).
As for the value dropping I do have concerns that it's primarily due to the closure of several Bitcoin mining operations in China. OTOH if it's caused by a physical reason then it shows it can rise again by solving (opening) a new mining location.
Quote: billryanWhatever happened to people who mean what they say or say what they mean?
The new kool thing is to throw out wild claims and repeat them without actually meaning it.
If I said BT would be X, I would mean it and back up my words.
Instead, we get a nonsensical post like it will be $250,000, and today Cathy Woods claiming it will hit one million dollars per. It's more ridiculous than some guy claiming an 80% hit rate, on a table game but that is where we find ourselves these days. My gawd, who doesn't want to buy something that "an expert" says will go up 6,000% in the next year or so?
Perhaps if we bathe bitcoin in a solution of lemonlabob, it will go up to two million per coin. You heard it here first.
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I think that went out the window when you asked anyone to show proof Bitcoin has had any upward motion in the last two years and then simply ignored every time I post that it has because it makes you look bad.
So here it is again, Bitcoin having upwards movement in the last two years. Since you asked for the proof you should have the decency to respond when someone supplies it
Quote: lilredrooster_____________
the link attempts to show that the price trends of BTC and Ethereum follow the stock market
I didn't read the whole article - but I'm certain that the difference is that with crypto the up and down swings are much more extreme
https://time.com/nextadvisor/investing/cryptocurrency/bitcoin-and-ethereum-prices-usually-mirror-the-stock-market-is-that-changing/#:~:text=Over%20the%20last%20year%2C%20crypto,nearly%20one%2Dto%2Done.
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I touched upon this in my article that I linked to a few pages back, so if you want to read that you may or may not enjoy it.
Anyway, Bitcoin doesn't exactly follow the stock market and I have no idea about Etherium. The stock market indices, for example, are certainly not nearly 75% down relative to their all-time highs, as Bitcoin presently is, so I have no idea why anyone would try to make that argument.
Further, for reasons unknown, BTC recovered a lot faster than the market coming out of the pandemic. I think people saw a potential opportunity and got into BTC investing, trading and mining...probably because there wasn't much else to do, but there may have been some catalyst for the quick recovery that I missed.
Anyway, BTC is its own animal and, I conclude, a pure confidence game as it is fundamentally worthless. I guess I can't characterize all crypto like that, as there might be a crypto that's actually tied to something, but I would say that all cryptos not tied to anything are confidence games. In any case, BTC does not follow the stock market and does not behave the way that one would expect a commodity to behave.
It's not a commodity. Copper is a commodity. Water is a commodity. Most crypto is more akin to a collectible than anything else.
Even so-called stable coins have shown themselves to be anything but.
But, please, buy now. The experts say it will be $250,000 or even a million quickly. It's on the intranet, so it must be true. At least hedge some of your investments with a few lotto tickets.
Quote: darkozQuote: billryanWhatever happened to people who mean what they say or say what they mean?
The new kool thing is to throw out wild claims and repeat them without actually meaning it.
If I said BT would be X, I would mean it and back up my words.
Instead, we get a nonsensical post like it will be $250,000, and today Cathy Woods claiming it will hit one million dollars per. It's more ridiculous than some guy claiming an 80% hit rate, on a table game but that is where we find ourselves these days. My gawd, who doesn't want to buy something that "an expert" says will go up 6,000% in the next year or so?
Perhaps if we bathe bitcoin in a solution of lemonlabob, it will go up to two million per coin. You heard it here first.
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I think that went out the window when you asked anyone to show proof Bitcoin has had any upward motion in the last two years and then simply ignored every time I post that it has because it makes you look bad.
So here it is again, Bitcoin having upwards movement in the last two years. Since you asked for the proof you should have the decency to respond when someone supplies it
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Are you guys even talking about the same thing? Anything highly volatile, which BTC certainly seems to be, is going to have ups and downs. Furthermore, BTC has, at times, significantly increased relative to its implied value since 11/25/20.
However, if BillRyan is using, "Upward Movement," to mean that Bitcoin is down overall in the last two years, meaning since 11/25/20, then BillRyan is correct. In terms of adjusted value (which is lower than unadjusted value, which means the price you'd have seen that day is higher), BTC closed at 18,732.12 on 11/25/20. That being the case, relative to 11/25/20, BTC is down nearly 12%. Relative to that date, for comparison, the Dow is up 14, or so, percent.
Quote: billryanThe rise in bitcoin seems to have been caused by millions of small investors buying a few hundred dollars of it at a time when the government was handing out checks and paying everyone unemployment. It was the shiny object that caught a bunch of newbies attention. Those "investors" have moved on, and I wonder who will replace them?
It's not a commodity. It's more akin to a collectible than anything else.
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It's funny you should say that! I'm going to have an article coming about investing in collectibles after doing some more research and conducting an interview with one or two people that I think will be pretty interesting. Specifically, Magic the Gathering, which I haven't actually played, but I happened across someone who is actually a long-term investor in that, so the subject interested me.
Quote: Mission146Quote: billryanThe rise in bitcoin seems to have been caused by millions of small investors buying a few hundred dollars of it at a time when the government was handing out checks and paying everyone unemployment. It was the shiny object that caught a bunch of newbies attention. Those "investors" have moved on, and I wonder who will replace them?
It's not a commodity. It's more akin to a collectible than anything else.
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It's funny you should say that! I'm going to have an article coming about investing in collectibles after doing some more research and conducting an interview with one or two people that I think will be pretty interesting. Specifically, Magic the Gathering, which I haven't actually played, but I happened across someone who is actually a long-term investor in that, so the subject interested me.
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Magic the gathering is not what I would consider a collectible either although it's certainly has some sisterhood to it.
The value of magic the gathering is that they had tournaments and that the "collectibles" imbued powers for the owner such that during the tournament your collection, knowledge of its usage and combination of power could determine whether you win or lose.
The intrinsic value in magic the gathering therefore is akin to say tennis or basketball.
To claim basketball items are nothing but collectibles because they have no intrinsic value off the playing field is ridiculous.
Same with magic the gathering.
EDIT: BTW if you are interested in a good book about magic the gathering I suggest "Jonny Magic and the Card Shark Kids". After becoming top champion at Magic the card shark kids attacked card counting at blackjack.
The winning combinations and keeping track of the cards at Magic is so complex that they found card counting to be something for kindergarteners.
Quote: Mission146Quote: billryanThe rise in bitcoin seems to have been caused by millions of small investors buying a few hundred dollars of it at a time when the government was handing out checks and paying everyone unemployment. It was the shiny object that caught a bunch of newbies attention. Those "investors" have moved on, and I wonder who will replace them?
It's not a commodity. It's more akin to a collectible than anything else.
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It's funny you should say that! I'm going to have an article coming about investing in collectibles after doing some more research and conducting an interview with one or two people that I think will be pretty interesting. Specifically, Magic the Gathering, which I haven't actually played, but I happened across someone who is actually a long-term investor in that, so the subject interested me.
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That is one collectible I know almost nothing about. A friend of mine, who had created the 1980s comic board game Villians and Vigilantes and worked on a DC-based game was offered exclusive distributorship rights for the Eastern US for Magic and turned it down, thinking it was too niche and would take away from a boardless chess game he was working on. We all make mistakes.
A year or two ago, I stumbled into what was purported to be unopened boxes of one of the early Magic series, but the "original factory seals" seemed off, and it was way too much money to take a chance on.
In comics, the price of the average 1960s Marvel keys roughly tripled from the start of Covid, although most have since fallen back quite a bit. The hi-end went nuts, with books that sold for $200,000 suddenly selling for a million. There are more comics in the $1,000,000 club today then there were in the $100,000 club five years ago.
Looking forward to the article.
BTC has been around since 2010 - that's coming up on to 13 years - that may not be a very long time - but it's not 8 months
if I was forced to make a bet as to whether or not it will be around in 25 years I would bet that it will be
but I couldn't even make a guess as to how its price action will evolve
Mission called it "fundamentally worthless" which is surely correct
but there is a lot of stuff in our society that hangs on that is fundamentally worthless
an argument could be made that if people perceive value in something then it cannot be valueless
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Quote: darkoz
Magic the gathering is not what I would consider a collectible either although it's certainly has some sisterhood to it.
The value of magic the gathering is that they had tournaments and that the "collectibles" imbued powers for the owner such that during the tournament your collection, knowledge of its usage and combination of power could determine whether you win or lose.
The intrinsic value in magic the gathering therefore is akin to say tennis or basketball.
To claim basketball items are nothing but collectibles because they have no intrinsic value off the playing field is ridiculous.
Same with magic the gathering.
EDIT: BTW if you are interested in a good book about magic the gathering I suggest "Jonny Magic and the Card Shark Kids". After becoming top champion at Magic the card shark kids attacked card counting at blackjack.
The winning combinations and keeping track of the cards at Magic is so complex that they found card counting to be something for kindergarteners.
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(Quote clipped to remove quote in quote)
All I can say is that you can expect to be surprised! I hope you will enjoy the article!
The most stable form of "collecting", at least as a long-term investment, seems to actually be sealed box sets. While many people collect and have individual cards graded, early research would indicate that buying boxes of cards and then opening and storing them is generally not profitable. If you had done that right off the bat before Magic the Gathering actually popped as a game, and held those individual cards, then they can be worth a ton of money now, but most people (obviously) did not think to do that at the time.
Anyway, I have no idea what the rest of your post is saying. It seems that you are objecting to something I said, or some perception of what you think the article is going to be, but I'm not sure what your objection is.
Magic the Gathering is known as a CCG (Collectible Card Game) or TCG (Trading Card Game), but the most consistent way to invest in Magic appears to be in sealed product. Because it is sealed, you don't even know what cards are in those boxes...other than they are part of some set of cards, but you don't know the individual cards.
I don't know what the ratio of players to collectors is, and I strongly suspect many collectors are also players, but the article is mostly going to focus on Magic the Gathering sealed boxes as a viable long-term investment.
it's kind of ironic that many here are saying BTC is worthless
THIS IS A GAMBLING BOARD
for probably about 98% of the people here a poker chip or a blackjack chip or a bacc chip or a slot machine is a worthless thing
unless you say that it has entertainment value
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Quote: lilredrooster__________
BTC has been around since 2010 - that's coming up on to 13 years - that may not be a very long time - but it's not 8 months
if I was forced to make a bet as to whether or not it will be around in 25 years I would bet that it will be
but I couldn't even make a guess as to how its price action will evolve
Mission called it "fundamentally worthless" which is surely correct
but there is a lot of stuff in our society that hangs on that is fundamentally worthless
an argument could be made that if people perceive value in something then it cannot be valueless
.
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I agree with all of this, except I'm inclined to bet against BTC having any meaningful implied value in 25 years.
While it is fundamentally worthless, I agree that it is not presently valueless as the value is whatever someone is willing to pay you for it. I don't think anyone is selling BTC at a 25% discount relative to current MV, which is what it would take to get me to buy it.
What's the downside? Always an important question. The downside is that it's fundamentally worthless, so, in theory, can become worth $0.00 in both implied value and MV. Other than short-term price fluctuations, it's possible that BTC retains the current general downward trajectory and never meaningfully recovers, so today's investor maybe doesn't want to admit to overestimating the market and take an actual (and undeniable) loss, figuring there's always a chance for a rebound if they continue to hold.
In general, I would encourage people to never consider what it is they can make as a priority, but always consider what it is you can lose first. For those who already have money, there's plenty of money to be made out there with effectively zero risk....for the next year or two, anyway.
Look at Confederate money. By the end of the Civil War, it was near worthless. For a hundred years after the war, it was useless. It was the punchline of thousands of jokes and tv skits. As a kid, I bought two $100 Confederate bills from a shop in Gettysburg for about half of one weeks allowance. Then it seems people started to see the historic value of the bills, and their value increased. Who would have thought that 150 years after it's defeat, a confederate $100 bill would be worth more than the winning sides $100 bills.
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Quote: billryan
That is one collectible I know almost nothing about. A friend of mine, who had created the 1980s comic board game Villians and Vigilantes and worked on a DC-based game was offered exclusive distributorship rights for the Eastern US for Magic and turned it down, thinking it was too niche and would take away from a boardless chess game he was working on. We all make mistakes.
A year or two ago, I stumbled into what was purported to be unopened boxes of one of the early Magic series, but the "original factory seals" seemed off, and it was way too much money to take a chance on.
In comics, the price of the average 1960s Marvel keys roughly tripled from the start of Covid, although most have since fallen back quite a bit. The hi-end went nuts, with books that sold for $200,000 suddenly selling for a million. There are more comics in the $1,000,000 club today then there were in the $100,000 club five years ago.
Looking forward to the article.
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It was probably wise on your part to pass on the offer. As I understand it, the counterfeiting of individual cards is a thing that happens sometimes in Magic, but it's not impossible that sealed boxes could also be counterfeit.
You seem to know a good bit about comic collecting, but I already knew that people collected those. There's a big controversy going on in the Magic world right now over some direct-to-consumer selling as well as a 30th Anniversary thing of four packs that are proxy cards and not tournament legal being sold directly by Magic, which is Wizards of the Coast, now owned by Hasbro. Anyway, the four pack of proxies that aren't even legal cards will be $1,000, which is causing a lot of people to be pretty ticked off. Hasbro is also flooding the market with new sets relative to the release rate that Wizards of the Coast had before being acquired, so players are pretty ticked off about that, as well.
Additionally, Magic seems to be increasingly doing direct-to-consumer sales of certain products, which is terrible for local card stores and are also doing some product dumps of backup unsold inventory on Amazon and such.
So, for that reason, I expect the article to do pretty well on Google, otherwise I'd have a hard time justifying writing it as it can only loosely be thought of as gambling.
